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Postwar Payen projects

hesham

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Anther projects from Payen I didn't hear about it;
Payen Pa-41,Pa-47,Pa-51,Pa-60, Pa-65 and Pa-600.
 

Jemiba

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All I have is the Pa.47 , the Pa.51 and, no, not the Pa.60, but the Pa.61,
which was a direct derivative of the 60. But I'm afraid , they all are quite
unspectacular and so not very uninteresting for this forum.
The Pa. 60 is shown in Pierre Gaillards "Les Avions Francais" unfortunately
with a very murky photo.
And the Payen Pa.59 Aldebaran wasn't that strange, for a time when
tail sitter designs were "en vogue", I think (after the war !
)
The other Payen designs are very interesting for me, too ! ;D
 

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richard B

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Hi,Jemiba!
Do you know the " Aviation Française Magazine " or " A F M " ?
it's full of pictures of French aircraft , built and rare projects
(in the last number Payen projects : jet ,twin prop, one prop-normal cockpit ...)
more on the " afm avia editions " site
 

hesham

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Hi,

dear Flitzer,sorry I have no scanner now,but I will try to
send a drawings.
Payen Pa.48 Mars:
it was a single seat tailless intercopter,powered by one
Hispano-Suiza Nene turbojet engine,unusual landing gear
and it had top speed 1300 km/h.

I discovered that Payen Pa-600 was a transport aircraft project.
 

lark

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Jemiba is very,very close about the Payen-Fouga Pa 562...
 

Jemiba

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Ok, about the Pa.562 :
With another drawing I've got from lark, I think, there's no doubt about the type.
Dimensions can quite easily be deduced by the cockpit section.As more or less the
complete forward fuselage of the Magister would have been used, the front
landing gear would be that of the Magister and to my opinion, the most logical
and plausible solution for the main gear is that of the Magister, too.
Position is taken from larks picture, which shows the main spars, were the retracted
legs would be housed.
Elementary, my dear Watson ! ;D
 

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circle-5

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I admittedly know next to nothing about Payen. Without his name on the airplane, I would have thought Lippisch. I will let you experts assign the correct model number for this fun little delta jet.
 

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Machdiamond

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PA-49.
The prototype is on display at Le Bourget museum.
-Luc
 

circle-5

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OK -- thank you Luc
 

Jemiba

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Indeed, and as it already has its wheel spats on this photo, it's in its last guise, as the landing gear
was the main detail, that was changed several times:
 

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Stargazer2006

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Wow, Jens! Don't think I'd seen the whole series of drawings before... Awesome!

Payen often gave nice and original names to his designs... The PA-49 was called "Katy" (though I believe at the time of its first flight on January 22, 1954 it was only known as the "Delta Jet").
 

Jemiba

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Yes, would be nice to know, what's really in those names. Perhaps not really so for the Pa.380 "Anaconda", but maybe
for the Pa.46/17 "Paloma" ? Or of course the "Katy" ? Who were it ? His then recent girl friends ? ;)

BTW, the Pa.49 got its first modification on the originally retractable landing gear, because with the low angle of attack
the single center wheel allowed, it couldn't leave the ground !
 

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Stargazer2006

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Yes, the first version was designated Pa.49A (or design K 79) while the second was called the Pa.49B (or K 82).

Unbuilt variants were the single-seat Pa.49/2 (or Pa.492) and the twin-seat Pa.49/5 (or Pa.495).
 

Maveric

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Good morning Jens,

do you have some technical data for your both projects?

Thanks... ;)
 

hesham

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Amazing drawings my dear Jens.
 

Jemiba

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Maveric said:
do you have some technical data for your both projects?
Unfortunately not, just the design number K69 for the "Paloma", a light passenger aircraft designed in 1946,
and K47 for the "Anaconda", a transatlantic mail plane, that was even designed already in 1939. I just mentioned
it here because of it's name, principally it should have gone to the early projects section.
 

Stargazer2006

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Jemiba said:
Unfortunately not, just the design number K69 for the "Paloma", a light passenger aircraft designed in 1946,
and K47 for the "Anaconda", a transatlantic mail plane, that was even designed already in 1939. I just mentioned
it here because of it's name, principally it should have gone to the early projects section.
Interesting "K" numbers! I have the Anaconda as the Pa.380 and the Paloma as the Pa.46/17.
 

Jemiba

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Me too, the K-numbers were given in the Trait d'Union issue about Payen.
 

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Jemiba

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Probably a derivative of the Pa.49, too, the Pa.149:
 

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Stargazer2006

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A few projects from an old issue of Le Trait d'Union:
  • Payen Pa.46/252 « Explorateur » (K68B)
  • Payen Pa.48/3 « Mars » (also known as the Pa.483) (K76)
  • Payen Pa.53 « Roland » (K83)
  • Payen Pa.57 « Aton » trainer (K87)
  • Payen Pa.59 « Aldébaran » VTOL interceptor (K88)
  • Payen-Fouga Pa.562 « Magister-Delta » trainer (K89)
  • Payen Pa.64 « Novae » "convertible" flying saucer (K91)
  • Payen Pa.61/G4 « Arbalète » (K123)
 

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Jemiba

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There was a model of the Pa.57, shown in a AirEnthusiast article, which shows some differences to the drawing
from Trait d'Union. I used it as main basis for a 3-view, quite speculative and not better than source grade 2, of course.
 

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Stargazer2006

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The Pa.59 illustration, although by Payen himself (as was the rest of the pics I posted) also shows some differences from the scale model built that was built later on. Last pic is an image of the resin model that was marketed by Sharkit.
 

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lark

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Just a little add..
'Katy' was the firstname of one of Payen daughters.
She tried to put order in the great many designs of the great man
by give them a 'K, designator following by a number.

From te K1 - RAP.10 of1929
to K168 - Pa.171 of 1992
 

Jemiba

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Thank you Paul,

had heard about his daughter before, but forgotten the name. Was just a joke,
that maybe it was the name of his girl friend . ;)
I used the drawing of the Pa.53 Roland for a 3-view, too, assuming that it was relatively
similar to the Pa.49, so again source grade 2.
 

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Triton

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Video of Payen Pa.49 "Katy" on display in the Le Bourget museum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTrJb6J9-mQ
 

Stargazer2006

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lark said:
Just a little add..
'Katy' was the firstname of one of Payen daughters.
She tried to put order in the great many designs of the great man
by give them a 'K, designator following by a number.

From te K1 - RAP.10 of1929
to K168 - Pa.171 of 1992
It's funny, this echoes almost exactly what I wrote earlier today in the Payen designations thread!
 

lark

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Strange coïncedent indeed Star...There was no telepathic contact
between us as far as I know. just got the info from a T.U. (complete list)
 

Stargazer2006

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lark said:
Strange coïncedent indeed Star...There was no telepathic contact
between us as far as I know. just got the info from a T.U. (complete list)
Same here! But it's funny that we thought of posting the same bit of information on the very same day!!!

(great minds) ;D
 

Jemiba

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My favourite photo about Payen designs and prototypes still is the one from AirEnthusiast
March/April 1997, showing the workshop and, besides the pretty well known Pa.60, the Z.10
and the Aéracar. Would give a lot for more photos of that moment !
 

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Jemiba

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With Deltafans help, I once tried to make a sketch of the Pa M.10/Pa.Z10 "Guépard",
to get an idea of its appearance.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Jemiba said:
With Deltafans help, I once tried to make a sketch of the Pa M.10/Pa.Z10 "Guépard",
to get an idea of its appearance.
Ha! I had this one in my files and it looked like your style, so I was right!

I assume you must have posted it elsewhere on the forum already... The filename you affixed to it may be the reason I listed the Pa.Z10 as "seen also as the Pa.M10 in another source"... Was that a typo of your doing, or did it have some basis to it?
 

Jemiba

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Oops, sorry ! Did a search before, but should have just looked for "Guépard", instead of its
designation. Well ok, for that, I owe you at least a 3-view of it .
About the "PAM-10", I got it from the same photo, but shown in another source (which I cannot
tell in the moment !). It's the one, I used as source and that's why I used the desigantion, too.

Phew ! You somewhat scared me ! Thought, that maybe it was me, who had unleashed a "new"
and wrong designation. But even if it is wrong, it wasn't me ! ;)
 

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Stargazer2006

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Interesting that the designation "PA-26" (or rather Pa.26) reappears here. I purposely removed it from my list because I had no valuable source for it (the type is known elsewhere as the Pa.G5). Even have the name "Minié" for it, but I have no idea whether this is genuine or the result of successive typos...
 

c460

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I guess you already know that, but "Minié" was an obscure French engine manufacturer, so maybe it was just the name of the engine.
 

Stargazer2006

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c460 said:
I guess you already know that, but "Minié" was an obscure French engine manufacturer, so maybe it was just the name of the engine.
I thought that the engine maker was spelt "Mignié" but I was wrong. Since that's the correct spelling then it's probably just a transcription mistake and it refered to the engine. Thanks for that suggestion!
 

Jemiba

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Great models indeed. But with regards to the Payen-Melot Pa.22/1R I as shown as an operational
type there, I think, it would have had severe difficulties with rotation for take-off !

About designations, I think Stargazer is quite right, a lot of carefulnes is really recommended here.
Not sure where, but I saw, that misinterpretations of for example "65" as " G5" or something like
that were quite frequent.
 

Stargazer2006

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Jemiba said:
Great models indeed. But with regards to the Payen-Melot Pa.22/1R I as shown as an operational
type there, I think, it would have had severe difficulties with rotation for take-off !

About designations, I think Stargazer is quite right, a lot of carefulnes is really recommended here.
Not sure where, but I saw, that misinterpretations of for example "65" as " G5" or something like
that were quite frequent.
Yes, the Aéracar is wrongly given as the Pa.65 in some sources because of the "G vs. 6" confusion.
It is clear however that the Aéracar designations carried the letter "G" for Guérin, who designed the type with Payen.

Besides, in the system used after 1947 (which was by then rather coherent), the Pa.65 was another design (the Otarie II).
 
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