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Postwar fighter projects from Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse)

archipeppe

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Retrofit said:
Jemiba said:
Could be an interesting thread, as I still couldn't find a clue, that Switzerland joined the
NBMR.1 NATO competition. But still yet I cannot see, that this delta is identical to the "Eid-
genössische Flugzeugwerke" (F + W) type, but maybe mentioning both sources would be
an eye-opener .... ::)

PLease, please, mention your sources ! It can make it much easier for all of us to find an
answer, as there's no need then, to do a long search, just to find the origin of a photo
or information !
I only have the copy of this page from an old booklet concerning mostly the N-20 history, if I remember (unknown tittle). But I have lost copies of the following pages :'(

Cute but surely influeced by Mirage III design of that times, at the end Swiss actually buyed Mirage IIIS for their purposes.
 

Jemiba

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Thanks for posting the whole page ! As I understand this part of the text, it's not explicitly
said, that it actually was a contender to NBMR.1, but just triggered by the development of light
fighter aircraft in other countries. Maybe someone can identify this publication now and tell us
the rest of this story . ;)
 

dan_inbox

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Retrofit:
the name is Harpon, with a single O as per French spelling. The N.20 series had French names.
Here are two views of the wind tunnel model, from the Sankt Gallen archives:







Source Swiss state archives Kanton St Gallen - Staatsarchiv des Kantons St.Gallen
 

Jemiba

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I've merged this thread with the one about "Swiss Lightweight fighter project L-10 III/V",
as there's still no evidence, that the delta actually is the L-10.
At least the question about the source is answered, see Petrus post #16. ...
 

Stargazer2006

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Fantastic pics dan_inbox!

Instead of simply fixing the spelling of "Swiss" in the topic's title, I have chosen to put the name of the country in three languages (German and French are official languages there).
 

hesham

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Jemiba said:
I've merged this thread with the one about "Swiss Lightweight fighter project L-10 III/V",
as there's still no evidence, that the delta actually is the L-10.
At least the question about the source is answered, see Petrus post #16. ...

My dear Jemiba,


if you suspect in the design L-10,I want to tell you; it was a real project for
F+W company,mentioned in the British Royal Air Museum site,but unfortunately,
this site is broken now,and for the F+W company,it used the number 10 twice,
one L-10 and other N-10.
 

Jemiba

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We have a part of an article about the study "L-10" for a lightweight fighter and the photo of a windtunnel model.
The company isn't mentioned in the source we have. And we have a 3-view of N-10/N-11 designs, without knowing
the company, too, but I don't think, that there is a relation, because of the totally different layouts. And why should
the "L-10" has something to do with the "N-10" ? As we recently found out , some companies were giving numbers
to there windtunnel models, that have no relation to the actual designations at all. It was a study for a fighter, but the
"L" designation doesn't fit into the schemes of F+W and of FFA neither. Maybe it wasn't from one of the Swiss companies,
but maybe from a university ? We actually had such cases here, too, do you remember ?
Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt, that someone in Switzerland worked on this little delta, but we have NO clues still yet,
to say, who it was. And what I'm trying to prevent is just, that one day we have to read something like that somewhere :
"A mystery is solved ! Not knowing for years, what this aircraft actually was, we now have the solution, which was
presented in the well known Secret Projects Forum ! Well known and highly esteemed in the circles of aviation enthusiasts
and even amongst experts, one of its members came up with that discovery, that can now be spread, as the SPF is known
to be a reliable source !"


We don't need this, do we ? :-\

P.S.:Thanks Stéphane for putting me right, hopefully none of our Russian or Japanese members is feeling discriminated now . ;)
 

hesham

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My dear Jemiba,


I agree about all of this,but I said; the British Royal Air Museum mentioned
them in its Aviation section,and now this site don't work,and you know that
site,is very reliably,in mention aircraft and designations,and they didn't mention any
fake aircraft in it at all.


They wrote that; under F+W aircraft designations;


L-10
N-10
N-11
N-20


all of them was created by F+W company,no need to all this doubts.
 

Jemiba

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Well, I know this problem ! I often found something on the net ... and then it was gone
again ! Perhaps this site can help, if you still have the link ? http://archive.org/index.php
Not to be misunderstood: It's not disbelief in you or your memories, but you know the very
first rule in the internet: Never believe in websites, you didn't manipulate yourself. ;)
You're right, there's no such site anymore, but there's no such museum either, only the
(British) Royal Air Force Museum and still yet, I found no clues about Swiss aircraft on
their site. And still yet nobody else here seem to have found something about it. So, it's
simply too early, to draw final conclusions !
 

Retrofit

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I think the answer can be found in the book mentionned by Boxkite in his post #15:
"Schweizerische Strahlflugzeuge und Strahltriebwerke" by Georges Bridel (Luzern, 1975, ISBN 3859549022)

I'm sure now the page I have posted (reply #39) came from that book.
Perhaps one SPF member has it available?
 

hesham

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My dear Jemiba,


the site was mention in Internet Archive; http://web.archive.org/web/20090430150537/http://www.collectionstrust.org.uk/aircraft/f.htm


but I can't open the F+W part.
 

hesham

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Yes my dear Petrus,


but it seemed to be this company was taken over by F+W.
 

Petrus

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Happily I've made it to buy "Schweizerische Strahlflugzeuge und Strahltriebwerke" and I must admit it is really fascinating book.

As for the L-10 (the designationa did stand for 'Leichtkampfflugzeug'), it was developed by Flugzeugwerk Emmen in 1956.

There were five variants of the project:

L-10/I - 2 Rolls-Royce Soar engines, wing area 19 square metres, all-up weight 3800 kg
L-10/II - 1 RR Orpheus, w.a. 20 sq. m., AUW 3900 kg
L-10/III - 2 Hispano Suiza R-800s, w.a. 22 sq. m., AUW 4350 kg
L-10/IV - 1 AS Sapphire, w.a. 26.5 sq.m., AUW 5900 kg
L-10/V - 2 RR Orpheus, w.a. 24.2 sq.m., AUW 5100 kg (see attached 3-view drawing)

The L-10/V specifications:
max.speed 1130 kph
Mach number 1.3
climbing speed 107 mps
take-off distance 435 m
action radius 200 km
thrust to weight ratio 0.77
aspect ratio 2.8
wingspan 8 m
[the book doesn't give information on other dimensions of the L-10]

Armament was to be two 20mm cannon and ordance of 800 up to 1200 kg.

Best regards,
Piotr
 

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hesham

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Great find my dear Petrus,


and I know I was right,the Eidgenossiches Flugzeugwerk Emmen or EFW after the WW2,
became F+W ,and that company developed that aircraft,but it was not from its creation.
 

Retrofit

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Wonderfull....
Thank you so much Piotr!
 

Jemiba

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Many thanks Petrus ! That's whart I call research and using, what should be a reliable source.
This publisher (Verkehrshaus Luzern) has quite another reputation, I think, than maybe a website
using unknown sources, or a book by Friedich Georg ... ;)
And the best is: This book is still available for reasonable prices, have just ordered my own copy.
 

Petrus

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Jemiba said:
And the best is: This book is still available for reasonable prices, have just ordered my own copy.
Indeed it costs around EUR 30 (incl. p&p). I bought it from www.aero-verlag.de.

Piotr
 

Tony Williams

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The P-16 and N-20 both used the Hispano-Suiza HS 825 cannon, which used 30 x 136 ammunition entirely different from the 30 x 113 Aden/DEFA or the later 30 x 173 Oerlikon KCA. I don't know of any other planes for which this gun was planned, although the British Fleet Air Arm was interested in it at one time (it had a much higher muzzle velocity than the Aden). However, it was a conventional gun - like the WW2 20mm Hispano - rather than a revolver, and achieving the high rate of fire demanded made it unreliable. So it ended up never being adopted by anyone.

The photo below of experimental 30 mm rounds (from the Ammo Photo Gallery on my website) shows two variations of the 30 x 136 ammo: the brass-cased rimless type as tested by the UK and the later steel-cased type with a belt just above the extractor groove.



30x91 (Mauser MK 212 WW2 - replica case), 30x110B (German WW2 unknown: replica case), 30x170 (WW2 British Hispano project, precursor of HS 831), 30x100B (WECOM / XM 140 - for Cheyenne helicopter), 30x126B T239 US 1950s (for T182 Aden-type aircraft revolver cannon), 30x136 (HS 825 - 1950s aircraft gun), 30x136B (belted steel version of the HS 825 case), 30x164 (Philco-Ford's rival to GAU-8/A)
 

Jemiba

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Got my copy of "Schweizerische Strahlflugzeuge und Strahltriebwerke" by Georges Bridel. Really great,
thanks for that clue again !
Just one more hint about the L-10 : It wasn't a contender to NBMR-1, but a study, which was triggered by
those lighthweight fighters. So the "Flugzeugwerk Emmen" started a study about the feasibility of such
an indigenous development. The result was sent to the military, but no orders were made for further
research.
 

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Retrofit

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Thanks Jemiba for this explanation and the photo of the delta wing N-20 wind-tunnel model.
 

hesham

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From the report; Zeitschrift: Schweizerische Bauzeitung


here is the FFA P-1401,P-1501,P-1601 and P-16 MK III drawings to comparison.
 

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hesham

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From some reports of; Schweizerische Strahlflugzeuge und Strahltriebwerke

here is a group of Switzerland fighter projects,I repeat some drawings from old reply
in this topic,in a bigger view;

1- L-10 variants
2- N-10 shape 1
3- N-10 shape 2
4- N-20 of 1946 (very strange)
5- P-12.05 project of 1947
6- P-13.02 project of 1947
7- P-16 C/b 3-view
8- P-16 C/f Model
 

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hesham

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And;


9- N-20.20 3-view
10- N-20.20 Model (from anther angel)
11- N-20 variants
12- P-17 3-view
13- P-25-06 Model
14- P-25.06 ,, from anther angel
15- P-25.20 details
16- P-26.02 trainer version
 

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hesham

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Finally,


19- The Switzerland fighter concepts from 1945-1953
20- ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, 1953-1960
 

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hesham

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Thank you my dear XP67_Moonbat,


if someone wants those files,please tell me,and I will send them to him.
 

Flitzer

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Hi all.
Having realised we had this thread already open I think it might be best I continue the N10 V3 profile here or if our moderator thinks it best under 'User Artwork' please move as required.


Progress report.


P
 

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hesham

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Very nice work my dear Flitzer.
 

athpilot

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Very very interesting! I never knew that the swiss had so interesting projects.... B)
 

Stargazer2006

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I agree. Let's see more of those swingin' Swiss sweeties!
 

Flitzer

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Right oh.
I can slip a few of these and others in between doing the next German batch.
P
 

Jemiba

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Kuno

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After quite some search I have recently obtained Geroges Bridel's book "Schweizerische Strahlflugzeuge und Strahltriebwerke". Interesting stuff, indeed! Interesting also that actually all Swiss aircraft constructors and manufacturers failed in the business - although some had really good ideas (and others rather not). Naturally with the one exception which is Pilatus Aircraft.
 

Jemiba

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Kuno said:
... Interesting also that actually all Swiss aircraft constructors and manufacturers failed in the business...
From what I know, it weren't actually the manufacturers who failed, but the Swiss procurement
policy !
And although the Swiss are considered to be very enterprising, especially during those times it
would have been very difficult to sell an aircraft on the international market, that wasn't put into
service by the airforce of the manufacturing country itself, I think. Another example for an aircraft
that may have achieved a better commercial success, perhaps is the Folland Gnat.
 

Kuno

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Amazing stuff. Considering that the Swiss aircraft industry's most "modern" aircraft in WW2 was the C-36 it is really surprising what step they inteded to take only shortly after the war. Unfortunately all those efforts ended in nothing than tworemainng prototypes and the bright yellow "Arbaléte" in the transport museum in Luzern. Said aircraft is at present not hanging from the ceiling but has been lowered to the ground - Last weekend I took some photos last which may be of interest for you:
 

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Sundog

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Nice pictures, thanks for sharing them with us.
 
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