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Postwar fighter projects from Switzerland (Schweiz / Suisse)

Flitzer

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Hi
until very recently I had no idea the Swiss undertook the design of jet fighters in the 50's.
I believe that two designs were produced i.e. FFA P-16 and the N20.
Appatrently they were poor, mainly due to being underpowered (?).

I wonder if anyone has any more details, refs or 3 view pics?

Many thanks
Peter
 

toura

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hello flitzer
If you write "ffa n20" or "ffa p16" you find a lot of answers
on your computer or choise " avia.russian.ee and look at
switzerland
bye
 

starviking

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Flitzer said:
Hi
until very recently I had no idea the Swiss undertook the design of jet fighters in the 50's.
I believe that two designs were produced i.e. FFA P-16 and the N20.
Appatrently they were poor, mainly due to being underpowered (?).

I wonder if anyone has any more details, refs or 3 view pics?

Many thanks
Peter
Hi Peter,

not a lot on the N20:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFA_N-20
http://www.aviastar.org/air/switzerland/efw_arbalete.php
http://www.aviastar.org/air/switzerland/efw_aiguillon.php

The FFA P-16 has some better info:

http://www.aviastar.org/air/switzerland/ffa_p-16.php
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0143.shtml

The last one has a basic 3-view of the P-16.

The Chandelle site has basic 3-view and info on both planes:

http://worldatwar.net/chandelle/v2/v2n2/switzers.html

A Swiss Site has this:

http://www.physikcd.ch/n20.html

and this:

http://www.physikcd.ch/p16.html

Both seem to have videos, but crashed my browser!

The only info I'd ever gleaned on these two planes pre-net was in Robert Jackson's 'Combat Aircraft Prototypes since 1945'. I don't think there was too much on 'em in there either!

Hope that helps

Eamon
 

Flitzer

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Wow lads.

Many thanks. Should be enough for a future couple of profiles in there.

Appreciate your help.

Peter
 

robunos

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for more stuff on the FFA P-16, see:-

Air International,August 1976, pp.94-5

cheers,
Robin.
 

Trident

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There's also a long article on the N-20 in an early 1990s FlugRevue issue.
 

borovik

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Hi Peter,
The small addenda to yesterday's @ mailing ))
FFA (Flug und Fahrzeugwerke) P-16 "DUSENSTORCH"
1) First project, type P-14/01.
span:11,10m
lenght:13,9m
wing a.:26,60m2
2) P-15/01.
span:11,0m
lenght:13,60m
wing a.:26,00m2
3) First project, type P-16/01
span:11,00m
lenght:14,50m
wing a.:34,00m2
4) P-16 C
5) P-17
6) P-16 with MATRA 1000 / SNEB
sources: LK magazine ##5-8/1997
Best regards .
Anatoly.
 

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Flitzer

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Just when you thought it was safe to consider making a start on a profile.....

Truly amazing. I love this site. So much help.
Many many thanks to you all.

Peter
;D
 

starviking

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Flitzer said:
Just when you thought it was safe to consider making a start on a profile.....

Truly amazing. I love this site. So much help.
Many many thanks to you all.

Peter
;D
So much talent too... ;D
 

boxkite

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Two recommended books on Swiss jet airplane designs (built & unbuilt):

* "Schweizerische Strahlflugzeuge und Strahltriebwerke" by Georges Bridel (Luzern, 1975, ISBN 3859549022)

* "Der Schweizer P-16" by Hanspeter Strehler (Emmenbrücke, 2004, ISBN 3033000517)
 

Petrus

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Before the Swiss built their N.20 they had designed several projects of jet fighters (as for the N.20 there is quite a decent entry on the aircraft in the German Wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-20).

The FFA (Flug- und Fahrzeuge AG) company projects were inspired by the Me-262 design, such an inpiration was not coincidental as an example of the Me-262 landed on the Swiss soil early in 1945. There were two basic projects of two-engined fighter: the P-25 and the P-26.

The P-25.11 design from 1947 was to have two indigenous Sulzer D-90 engines (3,000 kp each). Wingspan was 12.0 m, length - 14.5 m, take-off weight was to be 8,200 kg. The fighter was to reach M=0,9 max speed.

The P-25.20 from 1948 was to be a little smaller than the previous version, having wingspan 11.0 m, length 13.9 m and weight 7,300 kg. The aircraft was to be propelled by two Sulzer D-78 engines (2,200 kp each).

The P-26.11 from 1949 was to have wingspan of 10.65 m, length 12.3 m and weight 6,150 kg. Engines: two D-70s (1,795 kp each). Max speed: 1,100 kph.

Below you may see drawing of the projects (both drawings and data come from the "Letectvi + Kosmonautika" magazine from 1994).

Besides two-engine fighters, the Swiss worked on one-engine projects as well. Here are sketches of three of them: the N-10/N-11, P-12 and P-13. Unfortunately I don't have any details on these design.

Best regards,
Piotr
 

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CammNut

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Amazing place, youtube is..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNhhQbFJq6I&eurl=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3431814

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tb4Gmr9NLo&eurl=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3431814

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWz4vGfyJwA&eurl=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3431814
 

Flitzer

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Chesc Piotr and Camnut.

Many thanks.
Looks like I'll be doing profiles for the rest of my life ;) ;D.

Lovely.

Peter
 

Petrus

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CammNut said:
Amazing place, youtube is..
The movies are really breathtaking. Neither are their soundtracks, unfortunatyly. Sound of their engines would be much more interesting, don't you think?
 

XP67_Moonbat

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Aaggghh! :mad:

OMG! You can't put pop music to fighter footage. You need some good music for that. I have lists of ideas for that but it's neither here nor there and very off-topic. Maybe I'll post in The Bar some day
 

Just call me Ray

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Petrus said:
CammNut said:
Amazing place, youtube is..
The movies are really breathtaking. Neither are their soundtracks, unfortunatyly. Sound of their engines would be much more interesting, don't you think?
Indeed, I couldn't reach for the off button of my speakers fast enough :p
 

Flitzer

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Hi Mark
many thanks.

Amazing how much info the members always seem to dig up.
Interesting stuff.

VB Regards
Peter
 

hole in the ground

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Mark Nankivil said:
Here's a couple of drawings I have had for wuite awhile - don't know offhand where they came from...
Enjoy the Day! Mark
What are those side ducts coming from the compressor? It looks like they have a separate engine (fuel injector/burner) in them.
 

Petrus

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Mark Nankivil said:
Enjoy the Day! Mark
Lots of thanks, Mark. The day is really joyful.

By the way, it would be even more enjoyable to see any drawings that show the N.20's "waffenwanne" and the armament options.

As for the engines, a website on the N.20 and P-16 by Martin Gämperle and Sandro Fehr, which is not on-line anymore, said the following:

Das Triebwerk der N-20

Die N-20 besitzt vier Durchströmtriebwerke im Flügel vom Modell “Swiss-Mamba SM-01“, welche von der britischen Firma “Armstrong-Siddeley“ und dem eidgenössischen Flugzeugwerk Emmen entwickelt und hergestellt wurden.
Die “Swiss-Mamba SM-01“ besitzt einen zehnfachen Axialverdichter, das heisst der Hochdruckverdichter besteht aus zehn Rotorscheiben und jeweils dazwischen befinden sich die am Gehäuse befestigten Leitschaufeln (Statoren), die verhindern, dass sich die Luft im Triebwerk mit den Rotoren dreht.
Zudem besitzt das Triebwerk einen Nebenstromkanal und einen Nachbrenner; ein Teil der durch den Niederdruckverdichter beschleunigten Luft dringt in den Hochdruckverdichter ein, der andere Teil wird durch den Nebenstromkanal aussen am Triebwerk vorbei geleitet. Der Nachbrenner funktioniert folgendermassen: Das aus dem Triebwerk strömende Gas enthält noch so viel Sauerstoff und ist so heiss, dass es sich beim Dazumischen von Kerosin nochmals entzündet. Somit kann der Schub des Triebwerks um 50% gesteigert werden.
Der Nachbrenner wird jedoch nur beim Start und bei Situationen, die eine hohe Beschleunigung voraussetzen, eingesetzt, da sonst zuviel Treibstoff verbrannt wird.
Speziell an der Swiss-Mamba SM-01 ist auch, dass sich der Hochdruckverdichter mit
einer höheren Drehzahl als der Niederdruckverdichter dreht; die maximale Drehzahl des Hochdruckkompressors im Stand beträgt 15’000, die des Niederdruckverdichters 9000 Umdrehungen pro Minute.
Das Verdichtungsverhältnis der SM-01 beträgt 5:1, das heisst das Volumen der einströmenden Luft ist 5mal grösser als jenes der ausströmenden Luft.
Translated by Google Language Tools:
The engine of the N-20

The N-20 has four Durchströmtriebwerke in the wing model, "Swiss-SM-01 Mamba", which the British company, "Armstrong-Siddeley and the Federal Aircraft Factory Emmen developed and manufactured.
The "Swiss-Mamba SM-01" has a ten axial compressor, namely the high-pressure compressor consists of ten rotor discs and are located between each of the blades attached to the housing (stators), which prevent the air in the engine with the rotors spinning.
In addition, the engine has a bypass channel and a fire, a part of the low-pressure compressor accelerated air penetrates into the high-pressure compressor, the other part is by the by-pass channel outside on the engine over. The fire works as follows: The engine from the gas flowing still contains as much oxygen and is so hot that it is at this mixing of kerosene ignites again. Accordingly, the thrust of the engine by 50%.
The fire is only at the start and in situations that require a high degree of acceleration, used, otherwise too much fuel is burned.
Especially at the Swiss-Mamba SM-01 is that the high-pressure compressor with
a higher speed than the low-pressure compressor turns the maximum speed of the high-pressure compressor in the state is 15,000, that of the Niederdruckverdichters 9000 revolutions per minute.
The compression ratio of the SM-01 is 5:1, meaning the volume of einströmenden air is 5 times greater than that of the ausströmenden air.
And from a French website:

Le SM-01 était une version remaniée en Suisse par F+W du réacteur anglais Armstrong-Siddeley Mamba I, pour obtenir une turbine ŕ double flux (une des premičres au monde!). Le compresseur de ce moteur envoie deux autres flux vers des brűleurs supplémentaires, occasionnant une poussée additionnelle.

C'est la raison pour laquelle il y a 3 sorties de flux par turbine. En outre, ces flux secondaires peuvent ętre dirigés au moyens de volets, créant ainsi un supplément de portance ou une inversion du flux (frein) au besoin.
Which means:

SM-01 was a version altered in Switzerland by F+W of the English engine Armstrong-Siddeley Mamba I, to obtain a turbine with double flow (one of the first in the world!). The compressor of this engine sends two other flows towards additional burners, causing an additional push.

This is why there are 3 exits of flow per turbine. Moreover, these secondary flows can be directed to the means of shutters, thus creating a supplement of bearing pressure or an inversion of flow (brake) to the need.
Below there are photos showing how the engines' nozzles looked like (including one of a plactic model, but it shows clearly how the original looked).

Best regards,
Piotr
 

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hole in the ground

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Wow, so external reheat then... thought as much

That is quite interesting. I wonder if they had ever considered running it in purely ramjet mode? Taking the aircraft faster than would be possible with the turbo machinery... hmmm
 

flateric

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To my shame, I must say that I never expected such outrageus designs from a small watchmakers country. Every day brings you a new discoveries, really...
 

hesham

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Hi,

the P-12.
http://www.airwarfareforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6668
 

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GTX

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robunos said:
for more stuff on the FFA P-16, see:-

Air International,August 1976, pp.94-5

cheers,
Robin.
Or "Air International" March 1991 which has a good cutaway drawing.

Regards,

Greg
 

Grey Havoc

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http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a460795.pdf
 

Retrofit

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Hi,
I am looking for information concerning the N-20-20 "Harpoon", a follow-on version of the N-20, equiped with two Armstrong-Siddeley "Sapphire" jet engines and a delta wing.
Thanks in advance
 

Retrofit

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I found this wind-tunnel model photo of a Swiss project named "L-10 III/V" designed, it seems, for the NATO lightweight fighter competition (along with the Fiat G-91, Folland "Gnat", Breguet "Taon", Dassault "Etendart" and others perhaps). Winner: Fiat G-91
But I don't know if it is a FFA or a F+W project.
 

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Pioneer

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Very interesting
Thanks for bring this to my attention Retrofit
I was not aware that the Swiss entered a design (let alone this one) to the NATO Lightweight fighter comp!!

Regards
Pioneer
 

hesham

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Great find mt dear Retrofit,


and it was F+W of course,and the other aircraft designed by the same company and
was given the number ten,it was N-10.


And for FFA,it has an aircraft series with suffix P,beginning from P-1 up to P-26.
 

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Spark

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Hi,
There was the comapct Avro Delta proposal.
Retrofit said:
I found this wind-tunnel model photo of a Swiss project named "L-10 III/V" designed, it seems, for the NATO lightweight fighter competition (along with the Fiat G-91, Folland "Gnat", Breguet "Taon", Dassault "Etendart" and others perhaps). Winner: Fiat G-91
But I don't know if it is a FFA or a F+W project.
 

Jemiba

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Could be an interesting thread, as I still couldn't find a clue, that Switzerland joined the
NBMR.1 NATO competition. But still yet I cannot see, that this delta is identical to the "Eid-
genössische Flugzeugwerke" (F + W) type, but maybe mentioning both sources would be
an eye-opener .... ::)

PLease, please, mention your sources ! It can make it much easier for all of us to find an
answer, as there's no need then, to do a long search, just to find the origin of a photo
or information !
 

kaiserbill

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Fascinating.

As a light fighter concept, it is almost like the forefather of the ALR Piranha by a few decades.
 

Retrofit

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Jemiba said:
Could be an interesting thread, as I still couldn't find a clue, that Switzerland joined the
NBMR.1 NATO competition. But still yet I cannot see, that this delta is identical to the "Eid-
genössische Flugzeugwerke" (F + W) type, but maybe mentioning both sources would be
an eye-opener .... ::)

PLease, please, mention your sources ! It can make it much easier for all of us to find an
answer, as there's no need then, to do a long search, just to find the origin of a photo
or information !
I only have the copy of this page from an old booklet concerning mostly the N-20 history, if I remember (unknown tittle). But I have lost copies of the following pages :'(
 

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