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Mirage 4000

overscan

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LowObservable said:
How hard would it have been to make the beast supercruise?
I'd say it would definitely have potential in the lower end of supercruise. Engine is mostly optimised for high speeds, and is more of a leaky turbojet than a turbofan. Apparently a clean Mirage 2000 can just make it over Mach 1.0 in dry thrust. I'd say Mach 1.2 is the minimum to be able to claim useful "supercruise". Would probably require improved dry thrust from the M53?
 

Archibald

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About Rafale vs Mirage 4000: Rafale is (more or less) a scaled down 4000 with some aerodynamic tweaking.

The smaller size has four essential goals
- reduce cost
- introduce some stealth
- light enough for the French Navy carrier
- more manoeuverability

The difference between the two, as of the early 80's, was somewhat similar to a F-15 and a F-18. Think about all the countries that wanted F-15 or F-14 but ended with the far less expensive Hornet. Well, France made a somewhat similar move when the 4000 proved too expensive. "We want twin jet, but a hornet is the maximum we can afford".

Much like the Hornet, the Rafale introduced digital FBW (when the F-15 had conventional controls, and the 2000 / 4000, like the F-16, had analog FBW)

Bar the smaller scale, the main difference between the two laid with the air intakes / canard combination. The Rafale is superior to the 4000 there.

It is interesting to note that both Rafale and 4000 have the same combat range, 1850 km (1100 miles) despite the 4000 being much larger. It says about the M53 vs M88 respectives fuel consumptions. Of course a Mirage 4000 with M88s would be even better - but the M88 would need more power, and the end result would essentially be... a Typhoon. ;D

614766
 

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overscan

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Mirage 4000 was planned to use the multifunction RDM radar with a larger, 80cm diameter antenna..
 

galgot

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Thks for the resizing and reposting the images, better like that.
I hope the plane is still in good shape, been some since I’ve not been to le Bourget.
Think it’s still outside on the parking :/ Been very well repainted some years ago .

Here some nice picts of the time when painted in desert camo , from these sites :
https://www.dassault-aviation.com/fr/passion/avions/dassault-militaires/mirage-4000/#
https://www.avionslegendaires.net/avion-militaire/dassault-aviation-super-mirage-4000/#photos

Was surprised to read on the Dassault page the engines were M53-P 2 improved models. Thought it flew with M53-2 only...
Maybe a typo.
 

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Deltafan

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galgot said:
Was surprised to read on the Dassault page the engines were M53-P 2 improved models. Thought it flew with M53-2 only...
Maybe a typo.
It began in 1979 with the M-53-2. It got M-53-P2 engines in 1986.
 

flateric

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Gaël, merci beaucoup for walkaround pics
 

Deltafan

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Interesting insert page 59 of the article. Saudi Arabia was ready to buy 300 Mirage 4000 if France built at least 5 pre-series planes. The new French Government of François Miterrand did not want to build these 5 pre-series planes and the project did not go further…
 

Archibald

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Hell of a story. I have this gut feeling that Saudi Arabia used both Tornado ADV (mediocre, but available) and Mirage 4000 (inverse: good, but not immediately available) to get pressure on the United States to get more than 60 F-15s - a number fixed by Israel, afraid of Saudi Arabia getting F-15s in the first place.

(I red that on a serious book, no kidding. Israel put pressure on the United States so that Saudi Arabia got a maximum of 60 F-15s).
 

overscan

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Archibald said:
Hell of a story. I have this gut feeling that Saudi Arabia used both Tornado ADV (mediocre, but available) and Mirage 4000 (inverse: good, but not immediately available) to get pressure on the United States to get more than 60 F-15s - a number fixed by Israel, afraid of Saudi Arabia getting F-15s in the first place.

(I red that on a serious book, no kidding. Israel put pressure on the United States so that Saudi Arabia got a maximum of 60 F-15s).
BAE were also pushing the P.110 with ADV avionics and engines to Saudi Arabia.
 

alanqua

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Hello,
What would have been the potential customers for this M4000? Saudi Arabia has been mentioned, but what could have been the others?
Thanks for your input.
Regards
Alain
 

galgot

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Iraq maybe. They almost got some M2000s.
http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=386
Had the M4000 been fully developed, I think Iraq would even have been a more serious potential costumer than Saudi Arabia, whose "market place" is more traditionally US and UK for fighter planes.
 

hesham

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Hi,

a new article is on Le Fana 4/2019 about it,a two-seat version and a different armaments is
appeared,also a cutaway by colors to see all details.
 

Archibald

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300 - THREE HUNDRED - Mirage 4000 ? quite a huge order ! They never bought that number of F-15s or Tornados. At least not in a single purchase. Even in petro-dollars, the expense would be pretty colossal.
 

Grey Havoc

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The expenditure likely would have been somewhat offset by lower operating costs, at least in theory.
 

Archibald

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The expenditure likely would have been somewhat offset by lower operating costs, at least in theory.
Can't see how a Mirage 4000 would be less expensive to operates from either a Tornado or F-15. Even if Dassault sold them at bargain prices...
 

alanqua

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Hi,

a new article is on Le Fana 4/2019 about it,a two-seat version and a different armaments is
appeared,also a cutaway by colors to see all details.
Hello,
I did the drawing profiles for Le Fana magazine, I put them in attachment (low resolution versions):
- 1 whatif profile for a Saudi Arabian version
- 1 whatif 3 views plan for a French operational version
- 1 profil for general arrangement of the 2 seats version
- 1 profile of the prototype in white (refresh version, as I published it a few years ago)
- 1 profile of the prototype in grey (refresh version, as I published it a few years ago)
- 1 profile of the prototype in sand camouflage (refresh version, as I published it a few years ago)
I got some information directly from Le Fana team about the features for the 2 seats version, so that (I hope) my profile were not so far away from the original engineering version.
All profiles were published in the last 2 issues of Le Fana.

Also, some what if were not published:
- 1 iraki profile
- 1 jordanian profile
- 1 French profile from CEV test group

Regards
Alain
 

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Aardvark

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Hi,

anybody see somewhere published detail photo cockpit & opened cockpit electronic bay Mirage 4000?
Search this info.


Best Regards,
Serge
 

Archibald

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Mirage 4000 was planned to use the multifunction RDM radar with a larger, 80cm diameter antenna..
The first 37 Mirage 2000s that entered service in July 1984 had a downrated RDM that could not fire the medium range AAM Super 530D. The pilots were so baffled, they nicknamed the RDM "Radar De Merde" - I don't need to translate, and this was French pilots very own "Blue circle" joke (their British fellow pilots excellent joke about the Tornado F2)
 

kaiserd

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Mirage 4000 was planned to use the multifunction RDM radar with a larger, 80cm diameter antenna..
The first 37 Mirage 2000s that entered service in July 1984 had a downrated RDM that could not fire the medium range AAM Super 530D. The pilots were so baffled, they nicknamed the RDM "Radar De Merde" - I don't need to translate, and this was French pilots very own "Blue circle" joke (their British fellow pilots excellent joke about the Tornado F2)
No an entirely fair comparison - at least the early Mirage 2000's actually had a radar and not a cement filled noise (hence the "blue circle" after a cement firm).
 

Archibald

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To spoof King Arthur and its Knights (talking about a peculiar rabbit) - That aircraft was dynamite ! Surely it was. Jean Marie Saget told a story about how, in December 1979 flying a demo in front of Iraqis officials, his target was mach 1.9 at 50 000 ft... and he miscalculated slightly yet ended at 60 000 ft+ and well above Mach 2 within the blink of an eye.

After 1986, with the M53-P2 it must have given the Rafale A and its F404s a run for its money. I'm not sure the Rafale could follow in raw acceleration. But the Rafale was stealthier, more agile, and able to land on a carrier... times had changed.

It is a shame Dassault and the Europeans took 7 years (1978 - 85) to NOT get an agreement and went the separate Rafale / Typhoon ways. Had an agreement been found in, say, 1981 for a 4000 with EJ200s, it could have been a world beater.
 

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It could have been a very impressive airframe, just for interests sake, how would the 400 compare to the Rafale? I know, different tech and different times but put differently, how would the 4000 have stacked up against its peers versus how the Rafale would compare to its own peers and which would have the greater relative ability? Sorry, I have sinusitis, it's like thinking through concrete, heavy duty concrete....
The Rafale is very much a miniature, stealthy, and less expensive 4000 that also dropped the trademark Mirage side-mounted intakes.
I understand that the Rafale canard is more efficient than the 4000 since the intakes are no longer on the way to the wing. Basically the canard interacts more efficiently with the wing to improve the aircraft manoeuverability.
On the 4000 the canards are planted "straight" on the round intakes.
On the Rafale the cockpit sides gently blend into the canards. It can be clearly seen looking at a frontview of the two birds.
Al the flight testing made with the 4000 between 1979 and 1985 directly went into the ACX, Rafale A, and the rafale prototypes. The Rafale is somewhat a refinement of the 4000 shape with different intakes and digital FBW instead of analog.
Rafale can also land on a carrier thanks to its much smaller size and weight.
 

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Foo Fighter

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It could have been a very impressive airframe, just for interests sake, how would the 400 compare to the Rafale? I know, different tech and different times but put differently, how would the 4000 have stacked up against its peers versus how the Rafale would compare to its own peers and which would have the greater relative ability? Sorry, I have sinusitis, it's like thinking through concrete, heavy duty concrete....
The Rafale is very much a miniature, stealthy, and less expensive 4000 that also dropped the trademark Mirage side-mounted intakes.
I understand that the Rafale canard is more efficient than the 4000 since the intakes are no longer on the way to the wing. Basically the canard interacts more efficiently with the wing to improve the aircraft manoeuverability.
On the 4000 the canards are planted "straight" on the round intakes.
On the Rafale the cockpit sides gently blend into the canards. It can be clearly seen looking at a frontview of the two birds.
Al the flight testing made with the 4000 between 1979 and 1985 directly went into the ACX, Rafale A, and the rafale prototypes. The Rafale is somewhat a refinement of the 4000 shape with different intakes and digital FBW instead of analog.
Rafale can also land on a carrier thanks to its much smaller size and weight.
Thank you, much appreciated.
 

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From the Rafale thread... the exact missing link between the 4000 and Rafale.

The canopy and fin and overall shape are still 4000, yet the intakes / canard had started morphing into the Rafale.

 

Archibald

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Well done Blackkite !!! Ain't that amazing ? they look so similar... bar the cranked wing and intakes... and of course the livery is exactly the same... (Dassault prototypes colors).
 

blackkite

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Thanks a lot. Good find!!
 
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