Mirage 3000

[Archibald]

Between Mirage 2000 and 4000 was the Mirage 3000 (this seems quite logical!!!!) ;D :
I heard that this plane was 1978 proposal. More precisely, a Mirage 2000 with two RB-199 (a scaled down Mirage 4000 ?)
I don't know if it was a contender for the very first studies of the Typhoon (ECA started in 1978)
I search more details about this proposal, particularly a 3-view (Deino, MAtej or someone else??).
Something cool to model (with Tornado exhausts)

 

[elmayerle]

Now I need to find a Mirage 2000 kit to splice in with the aft end of a Tornado.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Pretty sure you'd need enlarged intakes too - mass flow of 2 x RB.199 is higher than 1 x M53.

 

[Archibald]

Now I need to find a Mirage 2000 kit to splice in with the aft end of a Tornado.

I compared the rear end of my 2000 with the rear of a Tornado. It is much larger...but the 2000 fuselage is area-ruled,just behind the air-intakes. Get ride off this are rule, and maybe the fuselage diameter would be good. Concerning the air intakes, why not using those of the Mirage IV ?
If I have less project on my workbench (and a bit more money) I would buy a Heller 2000 and then asking them for the air intakes of their Mirage IV and exhausts of the Tornado Gr.4.

 

[VictorXL188]

hi, may I add a tupporth of info to this question. I attach a snippet of info from Air International September 1978, which mentions the development of an engine by SNECMA. The M69 was in the same class as the RB199, and touted for use in the Mirage 3000.

 

[hesham]

Nice Info Victor.

 

[Deltafan]

I have these two drawings that I got in another website some years ago. I don't remember when or where. It was an artist impression from a forumer. Mirage 2000 with RB199.

I think that there was too a drawing of the Mirage 3000 in an old french magazine (Air & Cosmos ? Aviation Magazine ?). But I'm not sure (40 years ago and I had no archives at this time)...

 

[hesham]

Cool,thank you my dear Deltafan.

 

[Archibald]

Folks,
Some months ago I put "Mirage 3000" on Google Books - and got a few interesting returns.

I thought I had put that stuff into this very thread - but I actually put it in the alternate history section (facepalm)

I also discovered that back then (exactly 1977) early sketches of what become the M88 was called by SNECMA, the M69.

I'll see if I can find back that stuff in the depths of my HD... wish me good luck !

In the meantime...

"Mirage 3000" - Google Search

Le M 69 serait donc concurrent du RB . 199 de Rolls - Royce , déjà choisi pour le « Tornado »

"le M.69" - Google Search

Already mentioned is that very thread...

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/snecma-engines-list.1205/

Well seems I have early onset Alzheimer disease... I've found back my own M69 search results in that thread (eureka ! I know it was somewhere else than the alt-history section !)

ROTFLMAO.

 

[Harry64]

What performance increase (if any) would the Mirage 3000 have brought about compared to the Mirage 2000 with 2-RB199?

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

One thing that has always confused me is whether the Mirage 3000 was a scaled up 2000 or a scaled down 4000. Which on, if any, is the case? Are there any known drawings?

 

[Archibald]

I have wondered about this. Never seen a drawing. Reminds me of the zebra in Madagascar wondering if he is black with white rays or white with black rays.
More seriously
- If it has bubble canopy and canards, it has 4000 DNA.
- No canards and obstructed rear view: it's a 2000 offspring.

 

[Deltafan]

One thing that has always confused me is whether the Mirage 3000 was a scaled up 2000 or a scaled down 4000. Which on, if any, is the case? Are there any known drawings?

The Mirage 3000 came from a Mirage 2000 (I think I have found my source) :

Lafayette - What If - Dassault Mirage 3000

And in the Paul Jackson book about the Mirage (Ian Allan Ltd, 1985), in the chapter concerning the Mirage 2000 :

For early in 1978 it was offering a radically modified variant known as the Mirage 3000 to nearby air arms. The prime feature of the 3000 was use of two Turbo Union RB.199 turbofans (as in the Tornado). Each is rated at over 7,660kg (16,000lb) thrust, or slightly less than an M53, so the Mirage 3000's performance is better imagined than described. Of course, the Mirage 3000 itself existed only in the imagination of Dassault's design team, because there was no takers.

No drawing in this book.

Otherwise, as said above, it seems to me that there was a top drawing in a French aviation magazine (maybe in Aviation Magazine or Air & Cosmos which I was reading at the time). But I am not sure (that was over 40 years ago ...)

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Mirage 3000 is mentioned in UK National Archives as TCA (tactical combat aircraft) as a simple alternative to developing the Eurofighter . It was a Mirage 2000 derivative. 2 x RB.199 weighs a bit more than 1 x M.53 (around 4000lb versus 3300lb) but is more fuel efficient and gives vastly more thrust. It'd presumably give it a bulged rear end

Might be the intellectual ancestor of Rafale.

 

[Archibald]

Nice whatif ! for the intakes, I would suggest taking them from a Heller Mirage IV...

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

M53 - 92kg/sec airflow
RB199 - 70 kg/sec airflow (140kg/sec for two)
Atar 9K-50 71kg/sec airflow

= 1.52 x frontal intake area
= 1.23 x bigger in dimensions

From a modelling perspective, using the Tornado intakes as well as rear fuselage would make sense but the Mirage IV intakes ought to work very well - they have almost exactly the same mass flow as that needed for RB.199.

 

[Hood]

Mirage 3000 is mentioned in UK National Archives as TCA (tactical combat aircraft) as a simple alternative to developing the Eurofighter . It was a Mirage 2000 derivative. 2 x RB.199 weighs a bit more than 1 x M.53 (around 4000lb versus 3300lb) but is more fuel efficient and gives vastly more thrust. It'd presumably give it a bulged rear end

Might be the intellectual ancestor of Rafale.

I have seen those Kew files too, at the time I wondered whether the Mirage 3000 was a serious project or whether it was a MacGuffin to try and kill a British-designed ECA before it could mature into a threat (those files contain a lot of teeth-gnashing about cooperating with the French).

 

[Archibald]

Considering AFVG and Jaguar recent histories the feelings were probably mutual...

 

[Hood]

I would like to refine my earlier post above on the Mirage 3000. Re-reading the files I am sure that there was more behind it than a MacGuffin.
It is clear that in 1977 the MoD/RAF were very interested in the Mirage 2000 as a possible contender for the AST403/TCA effort which was then just starting and which had only recently broadened out from being an MBB-BAC project.
The Mirage 2000 was the only tailless delta in Western Europe and it was felt to be more suitable for the kind of agility required for TCA (which remember at this time was a very loose definition of requirements). In particular the MoD wondered if it could be further developed with control configured layout and FBW to suit the requirements.

Dassault were candid that the the French AF wanted the Mirage 2000 quickly, in service by 1981 so they could not afford to wait and wanted a commitment as soon as possible so that some kind of workshare could be agreed, possibly bringing a British radar to the table was one example mentioned. An RB.199 derivative engine seems likely to have been on the MoD's mind too. The MoD was thinking of a developed Mirage 2000/Mirage-based post-1985 fighter (Germany more like 1990), so a stock Mirage 2000 was unacceptable to meet AST.403. However, it was considered that if AST.403 then a small number of Mirage 2000s might be procured as an interim Jaguar replacement for the 1980s - but the RAF was not convinced that it was a true multi-role type.
The French in 1978 continued to press the MoD for commitment and requested the RAF to buy Mirages instead of Tornado ADV - which of course was refused outright (the French probably not grasping the unique stand-off profile ADV was designed for).

It is my contention (in the absence of hard evidence) that these 1977/78 discussions over the Mirage 2000 for AST.403 and TCA were the spur for the Mirage 3000. The result being what Dassault thought might be acceptable to the UK and Germany, an agile tailless delta with improved power/thrust ratio from two RB.199 engines. Power/thrust ratio was quickly defined as one of the key elements of TCA alongside its manoeuvrability.
It was not until early 1980 that actual joint discussions began on an actual TCA common design, Dassault wanting political commitment before agreeing to go ahead to join these tri-national studies. So Mirage 3000 itself predates the actual TCA design work but was probably Dassault's starting point. There was probably also a hope from Dassault that it might rekindle the French Air Force's desires in the cancelled ACF-class of fighter too, which bore fruit in the Mirage 4000.

 

[Archibald]

Very interesting. What is TCA ? is it related to ECA / ECF (the 1978-81 studies that led to the "first split": ACX vs EAP demonstrators).

It confirms my feelings that the best way not to split between Typhoon and Rafale is NOT by 1985 or 1983 but much earlier, circa 1977 and before ECA / ECF - or making these two happenings differently.

The end result being a scaled-down Mirage 4000, shrunk in size thanks to a pair of RB199s being far more compact than a pair of M53s (think F100 vs F404, F-15 vs F-18)

Makes some sense. The 2000 wasn't multirole in the beginning, it was interceptor-uber-alles; the F1 was declined into the CR in 1981 and CT in the early 90's so still had potential. In a sense the 2000 duplicated the F1 in the interceptor role, Super 530 included. Admittedly, the F1 with the Super 530F lacked a look-dowk / shoot-down capability (Super 530D for Doppler) the 2000 was supposed to introduce... with the RDI radar.
Alas, it wasn't ready and thus the early 2000 IOC at Dijon air base in July 1984 had RDMs and Magic 1s only, making them inferior to the F1C-200. Thompson CSF sucked at avionics just like SNECMA sucked at engines - to Dassault despair and frustration at times. Things improved with late batches of the 2000.

In passing, these 37 Mirage 2000s with the subpar RDM radar later got a quantum leap of an upgrade: they become the 2000-5s after 1997. They went straight from under dog of the fleet to top notch.

The French in 1978 continued to press the MoD for commitment and requested the RAF to buy Mirages instead of Tornado ADV - which of course was refused outright (the French probably not grasping the unique stand-off profile ADV was designed for).

One can wonder if the 4000 could have been adapted to the ADV requirement. The Tornado ADV for all its flaws had two-seats, a big powerful radar, and VG wings that could go straight for subsonic loitering.
The 4000 had a two-seat variant planned, but could it carry the big Foxhunter radar ? and delta wings even with analog FBW may have sucked at subsonic loitering. Although the 4000 seemingly had a amazing fuel fraction - so who knows ?
More annoyingly, as far as the French were concerned, the 4000 was frozen since December 18, 1975 when President Giscard picked its smaller and more exportable brother, the 2000, as the French Air force future mainstay. The lone 4000 prototype would get in production only if an export order funded it - hello, F-20 Tigershark... it's dead, Jim.

 

[kaiserd]

The Tornado ADV boat had already sailed by the time of the Mirage 4000.
It was the Mirage 2000’s predecessors (F1 and the ACF) that lost that paper competition (the Tornado ADV being closer to what the RAF wanted and being politically and industrially more palatable anyway).
Recommend Chris Gibsons Battle Flight book for the actual history on this.

 

[Jason Dykstra (Wyvern)]

Even if it had been, I doubt whether the 4000 would've been seriously considered by the Air Staff, as it would require too many modifications to be viable. This was one of the reasons why the F-14 and F-15 were rejected; with all the modifications required to fit the requirement, they might as well have built a new aircraft, which is exactly what happened.

However, I am certain that the 3000 was considered to be an option instead of the Typhoon, I've heard the F/A-18 was given some consideration, so I wouldn't doubt Dassault trying to market it to the British.

 

[Hood]

Very interesting. What is TCA ? is it related to ECA / ECF (the 1978-81 studies that led to the "first split": ACX vs EAP demonstrators).

TCA = Tactical Combat Aircraft
This was the first acroynm before the three partners really nailed down what they wanted, at this stage AST.403 was still covering VSTOL options for example before the decision was made to go with Harrier II.

Thompson CSF sucked at avionics just like SNECMA sucked at engines - to Dassault despair and frustration at times.

Yes, from what I have read the French admitted the UK as a partner would bring a decent radar. Given this was 1977 it would probably mean something Blue Fox/Blue Vixen based.

I've heard the F/A-18 was given some consideration, so I wouldn't doubt Dassault trying to market it to the British.

The Germans were very keen on F-18L. The MoD was also very keen on F-18L. After Mirage 2000 was ruled out as a starting point the F-18L was considered the only aircraft capable of meeting AST.403 but not meeting the STOL runway requirements. ECA as it became had to offer something superior to the F-18 to make it worthwhile - the resulting Typhoon and its bespoke engines, radar and avionics and configuration stems from that.