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Mirage 3000

Archibald

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Between Mirage 2000 and 4000 was the Mirage 3000 (this seems quite logical!!!!) ;D ::)
I heard that this plane was 1978 proposal. More precisely, a Mirage 2000 with two RB-199 (a scaled down Mirage 4000 ?)
I don't know if it was a contender for the very first studies of the Typhoon (ECA started in 1978)
I search more details about this proposal, particularly a 3-view (Deino, MAtej or someone else??).
Something cool to model (with Tornado exhausts)
 

elmayerle

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Now I need to find a Mirage 2000 kit to splice in with the aft end of a Tornado.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Pretty sure you'd need enlarged intakes too - mass flow of 2 x RB.199 is higher than 1 x M53.
 

Archibald

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elmayerle said:
Now I need to find a Mirage 2000 kit to splice in with the aft end of a Tornado.

I compared the rear end of my 2000 with the rear of a Tornado. It is much larger...but the 2000 fuselage is area-ruled,just behind the air-intakes. Get ride off this are rule, and maybe the fuselage diameter would be good. Concerning the air intakes, why not using those of the Mirage IV ?
If I have less project on my workbench (and a bit more money) I would buy a Heller 2000 and then asking them for the air intakes of their Mirage IV and exhausts of the Tornado Gr.4.
 

VictorXL188

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hi, may I add a tupporth of info to this question. I attach a snippet of info from Air International September 1978, which mentions the development of an engine by SNECMA. The M69 was in the same class as the RB199, and touted for use in the Mirage 3000.
 

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Deltafan

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I have these two drawings that I got in another website some years ago. I don't remember when or where. It was an artist impression from a forumer. Mirage 2000 with RB199.

I think that there was too a drawing of the Mirage 3000 in an old french magazine (Air & Cosmos ? Aviation Magazine ?). But I'm not sure (40 years ago and I had no archives at this time)...
 

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Archibald

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Folks,
Some months ago I put "Mirage 3000" on Google Books - and got a few interesting returns.

I thought I had put that stuff into this very thread - but I actually put it in the alternate history section (facepalm)

I also discovered that back then (exactly 1977) early sketches of what become the M88 was called by SNECMA, the M69.

I'll see if I can find back that stuff in the depths of my HD... wish me good luck !

In the meantime...


Le M 69 serait donc concurrent du RB . 199 de Rolls - Royce , déjà choisi pour le « Tornado »


Already mentioned is that very thread...


Well seems I have early onset Alzheimer disease... I've found back my own M69 search results in that thread (eureka ! I know it was somewhere else than the alt-history section !)

ROTFLMAO.
 
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Harry64

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What performance increase (if any) would the Mirage 3000 have brought about compared to the Mirage 2000 with 2-RB199?
 

Wyvern

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One thing that has always confused me is whether the Mirage 3000 was a scaled up 2000 or a scaled down 4000. Which on, if any, is the case? Are there any known drawings?
 

Archibald

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I have wondered about this. Never seen a drawing. Reminds me of the zebra in Madagascar wondering if he is black with white rays or white with black rays.
More seriously
- If it has bubble canopy and canards, it has 4000 DNA.
- No canards and obstructed rear view: it's a 2000 offspring.
 

Deltafan

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One thing that has always confused me is whether the Mirage 3000 was a scaled up 2000 or a scaled down 4000. Which on, if any, is the case? Are there any known drawings?
The Mirage 3000 came from a Mirage 2000 (I think I have found my source) :


And in the Paul Jackson book about the Mirage (Ian Allan Ltd, 1985), in the chapter concerning the Mirage 2000 :

For early in 1978 it was offering a radically modified variant known as the Mirage 3000 to nearby air arms. The prime feature of the 3000 was use of two Turbo Union RB.199 turbofans (as in the Tornado). Each is rated at over 7,660kg (16,000lb) thrust, or slightly less than an M53, so the Mirage 3000's performance is better imagined than described. Of course, the Mirage 3000 itself existed only in the imagination of Dassault's design team, because there was no takers.
No drawing in this book.

Otherwise, as said above, it seems to me that there was a top drawing in a French aviation magazine (maybe in Aviation Magazine or Air & Cosmos which I was reading at the time). But I am not sure (that was over 40 years ago ...)
 
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overscan (PaulMM)

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Mirage 3000 is mentioned in UK National Archives as TCA (tactical combat aircraft) as a simple alternative to developing the Eurofighter . It was a Mirage 2000 derivative. 2 x RB.199 weighs a bit more than 1 x M.53 (around 4000lb versus 3300lb) but is more fuel efficient and gives vastly more thrust. It'd presumably give it a bulged rear end :)

Might be the intellectual ancestor of Rafale.
 

Archibald

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Nice whatif ! for the intakes, I would suggest taking them from a Heller Mirage IV...
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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M53 - 92kg/sec airflow
RB199 - 70 kg/sec airflow (140kg/sec for two)
Atar 9K-50 71kg/sec airflow

= 1.52 x frontal intake area
= 1.23 x bigger in dimensions

From a modelling perspective, using the Tornado intakes as well as rear fuselage would make sense but the Mirage IV intakes ought to work very well - they have almost exactly the same mass flow as that needed for RB.199.
 

Hood

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Mirage 3000 is mentioned in UK National Archives as TCA (tactical combat aircraft) as a simple alternative to developing the Eurofighter . It was a Mirage 2000 derivative. 2 x RB.199 weighs a bit more than 1 x M.53 (around 4000lb versus 3300lb) but is more fuel efficient and gives vastly more thrust. It'd presumably give it a bulged rear end :)

Might be the intellectual ancestor of Rafale.
I have seen those Kew files too, at the time I wondered whether the Mirage 3000 was a serious project or whether it was a MacGuffin to try and kill a British-designed ECA before it could mature into a threat (those files contain a lot of teeth-gnashing about cooperating with the French).
 

Archibald

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Considering AFVG and Jaguar recent histories the feelings were probably mutual...
 
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