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McDonnell-Douglas Model 193(?) VG V/STOL fighter

Mark Nankivil

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Hi All -

Stopped by the St. Louis Aviation Museum and while walking my son back through the building to the bathroom, I eyed the following model in one of the side rooms. Any ideas as to what it is?

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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GTX

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Its not related to their TFX contender is it? Maybe a design concept?

Regards,

Greg
 

Pioneer

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Orionblamblam said:
It's VTOL, whatever it is...

The variable geometry *tailplanes* are certainly odd.

Great find!

Thats a lot of effort and engineering!

Regards
Pioneer
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I have a vague recollection of seeing pivoting tailplanes in one of the dozens (hundreds?) of NASA VG reports. Can't be certain however.

Maybe its designed to GOR 169, the VTOL predecessor to GOR 183?

Nose looks strike/recce configured however.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Found it. Its in Technical Memorandum X-1272 dated 1966. The paper discusses ways of improving VG fighter manouverability at higher speeds and includes retractable canards (as seen on McDD VFX design) and variable sweep tailplanes.

Not sure of relevance to this model however.
 

Mark Nankivil

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I plan on going back and asking nicely about taking more photos of the model and finding out if any info is available (doubt it). It is a small museum that is struggling (I helped out years ago at the previous iteration of the museum). Still, it might be worth it to see what else might be lurking about and my scanning abilities are light years better than the first go around.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Orionblamblam

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Mark Nankivil said:
I plan on going back and asking nicely about taking more photos of the model and finding out if any info is available (doubt it).

A photography suggestion. If you cannot get the model brought down to you for convenient photography... get a tripod (a $15 cheapo model will do) and use the cameras "timer" function. Attach the camera to the tripod, extend the legs of the tripod, but keep the legs folded together. You now have a "camera on a stick." Set the camera to take a picture in 2 or 3 seconds. Push the button, raise the camera on a stick (having angled the camera to look slightly down), then raise the camera as high and ovehead as you can. Viola. You can now take ovehead photos of the model, including - hopefully - the stand it's attached to which - hopefully - gives full details regarding designation and perhaps scale. Bringing a ruler with you would also be helpful, just in case the scale of the model is given.

I've used this technique many times. However, since aiming is almost pure guesswork, taking lots of photos is probably a must. But the beauty of digital cameras is that ill-framed or blurry photos don't cost anything.
 

JJC

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it has a certain look about it, F-111B I mean kind of
 

Thorvic

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Whats with the vents under the fuselage, a lift engine for improved manouverability ?, but for a fighter why the odd nose which limits radar, unless its a gun or the intake for lift device ?

G
 

Mark Nankivil

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The lower face of the nose has a painted window to represent some sort of sensor window, hence the unique shape.

Thanks for the idea Scott - I fully expect to be able to bring the model down and being able to thoroughly photograph it. I will also be asking what other models they may have stashed away ;)

I did see two wind tunnel wing sections I want to photograph too - one is the right wing of the F-15 and the other is an iteration of an F-4E wing with a cambered leading edge on the outer panel. Probably one of the options looked at during the Agile Eagle evaluation which led to the slatted wing.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

Mark Nankivil

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Hi All -

Stopped by the museum yesterday with my son to see about taking a few more photos of the model. Turned out I had the chance and will go back to do a more balanced job later on. The model base states "McDonnell Supersonic V/STOL Strike Fighter with Mechanical Lift Fan" so we're likely looking at mid-60s and before the McD-D merger. Neat model too - the belly separates and exposes the internals as you can see below...

The docent working mentioned that he has more information on the design and will dig it up for me. I joined the museum and will pitch in where i can and see what else I can uncover that would fit here in the forum.

Also photographed some other interesting models - will post in the appropriate threads.

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Mark Nankivil

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...and a couple more...
 

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Tailspin Turtle

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Thanks very much, Mark

With respect to "The docent working mentioned that he has more information on the design and will dig it up for me."

I for one would be interested in knowing where they put the fuel.
 

Skybolt

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There were plenty of study requirements and the like concerning supersonic V/STOL between 1960 and 1965. One comprised the Republic AP-100 and an unnamed Hiller and much more. Slightly later, Lune 1963, USAF had an Advanced Development Objective (ADO) numbered 12, awarded in late October same year to Boeing and Republic again (one of the Republic proposal was the VG with three lift fans in mid fuselage). For this ADO competed at least Lockheed too, with Model 802 variations (derivatives of F-104 and completely new aircrafts). Still later there was a stretched F-111 with lift-fans in circa 1965 (extreme STOL ?). Could have been originated by same spec of this McD.
 

Mark Nankivil

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I agree Tommy - maybe some high density boron fuel :)

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

nugo

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HI Skybolt!

If you can show Lockheed Model CL-802 variations (derivatives of F-104 and completely new aircrafts).
 

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Skybolt said:
Still later there was a stretched F-111 with lift-fans in circa 1965 (extreme STOL ?).

You don't have any drawings or pictures of models of this variant of the F-111 do you??

Regards
Pioneer
 

Skybolt

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If you can show Lockheed Model CL-802 variations (derivatives of F-104 and completely new aircrafts).
Ok, but in a new topic.
 

circle-5

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Here's a different variant of the same McDonnell project, also with VG horizontal stabilizer. Air intakes have been moved above the the wing, to reduce hot gas recirculation (from the collection of Sir George Cox).
 

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nugo

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Hi Skybolt!

Yes you are right!
If possible, make a new topic about the Lockheed CL-802 proposals.
 

uk 75

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This aircraft looks pretty much in the same category
as the Boeing and Republic designs with the Germans
for an Advanced Weapons system aircraft covered in
a separate thread. There seems to have been a similar
evolution from side mounted to top mounted propulsion
engines in these designs.

It is hard to see what US such a complicated aircraft
could actually have met, unless it was to fill the same
role as the Luftwaffe's nuclear rapid reaction strike role.
In which case it would presumably have replaced the
F105 Thunderchief rather than the F-111 and been
based in Germany rather than the UK.

By 1967 this requirement had been rendered obsolete
by NATO's adoption of flexible response rather than
nuclear all out response. It would be interesting to
know if McDonnell Douglas had contacts with the Germans.

UK 75
 

sferrin

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circle-5 said:
Here's a different variant of the same McDonnell project, also with VG horizontal stabilizer. Air intakes have been moved above the the wing, to reduce hot gas recirculation (from the collection of Sir George Cox).

I don't suppose you have a version of that picture with ALL of the models visible? ??? (And none of these made it into "American Secret Fighters". Makes you wonder how much is still out there waiting to be found. )
 

Skybolt

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You don't have any drawings or pictures of models of this variant of the F-111 do you??
I have, but see Scott post in another topic now... ;)
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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sferrin said:
circle-5 said:
Here's a different variant of the same McDonnell project, also with VG horizontal stabilizer. Air intakes have been moved above the the wing, to reduce hot gas recirculation (from the collection of Sir George Cox).

I don't suppose you have a version of that picture with ALL of the models visible? ??? (And none of these made it into "American Secret Fighters". Makes you wonder how much is still out there waiting to be found. )

To be fair, Tony Buttler largely limits his books to proposals made in response to serious requirements, so many unbuilt projects are out of scope.
 

hesham

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I think that it was McDonnell Model-193 V/STOL fighter of 1964.
 

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Orionblamblam said:
GTX said:
Its not related to their TFX contender is it?

Probably not a seriously considered TFX, but the deisgn looks right for the approximate era. VTOL was all the rage at the time.

The 1960-61 TFX proposals (Model 156) did NOT involve VTOL, but there is indeed a Model 193 from 1964 described as a "V/STOL fighter project" which seems to be the most likely candidate.
 

hesham

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hesham said:
I think that it was McDonnell Model-193 V/STOL fighter of 1964.

As I said,very closely to Model-193.
 

The Artist

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uk 75, You might be right. Another member of the Museum staff passed this information on from the model's donor.

"It was a German RFP--1964-65 It was a request for a supersonic V/STOL FIGHTER Mach 2.2 We won, however the McDonnell crew voted to not go to Germany for 3 years They then awarded it to Repuplic and they failed. That was the end of Republic except for the A10. We then took the mechanical fan which had an inside gear box -Life time was 15 minutes of run time cold flow. Allison built it for us. We found we only needed four minute time frame then we put 2 in, one front and one back then put it in a subsonic ground atteck aircraft and submitted it to the USAF for a ground subsonic ground machine in competition againt the GE TIP TURBINE GAS FAN -We won the competition--cold flow was our sell. The USAF shelved it until Lockheed J35."



uk 75 said:
This aircraft looks pretty much in the same category
as the Boeing and Republic designs with the Germans
for an Advanced Weapons system aircraft covered in
a separate thread. There seems to have been a similar
evolution from side mounted to top mounted propulsion
engines in these designs.

It is hard to see what US such a complicated aircraft
could actually have met, unless it was to fill the same
role as the Luftwaffe's nuclear rapid reaction strike role.
In which case it would presumably have replaced the
F105 Thunderchief rather than the F-111 and been
based in Germany rather than the UK.

By 1967 this requirement had been rendered obsolete
by NATO's adoption of flexible response rather than
nuclear all out response. It would be interesting to
know if McDonnell Douglas had contacts with the Germans.

UK 75
 

circle-5

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A better view of the "other" McDonnell Model 193 variant, with top air intakes. This would presumably minimize engine FOD stirred-up by the triple lift-fan arrangement. Note: Model 193 is just a guess. McDonnell archive explorers please correct me.

Detail: the VG stabilizer glove is part of the elevator. It pivots together with the horizontal stab and the entire VG pivot mechanism is therefore contained within the glove. Neat-O.
 

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