Manfred Weiss -- Hungarian Aircraft Producer

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Heshams query on the unbuilt fighters, WM-17/WM-18, got me thinking about Manfred Weiss.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10487.0.html

This Hungarian aircraft maker was a spin-off of the large steel mill combine (on Csepel, an island in the Danube off Budapest) sometimes described as the 'Krupp of Hungary'. The Manfred Weiss aircraft plant began work in 1927. The aero engine works began in 1928.

Note: in Hungarian usage, proper names are reversed (as compared with English). The firm's Hungarian name was the Weiss Manfréd Muvek (WMM or Manfred Weiss Works). The engine division was the Weiss Manfréd Repülögép- és Motorgyár Rt.

Among the Manfred Weiss aero engines produced were:

- Siemens & Halske series of air-cooled radial engines (Sh 10, Sh 11, and Sh 12)
- eg: WM Sh 11 for MSrE BL-6, WM Sh 12 for WM's licenced Udet U12/b Flamingó trainers
- Manfred Weiss Sport I/II/III series of 100-130hp air-cooled 4-cylinder inline engines
- eg: Sport used in WM-10a/-13 and Bánhidi Gerle (Turtle Dove) biplane trainers
- Bristol Jupiter VI 420hp radial (licenced by Manfred Weiss from French Gnome-Rhône)
- eg: WM-built Fokker C.V derivatives, MW-Fokker F.VIII, AVIS I/II fighters, etc.*
- Gnome-Rhône 9K Mistral (MW licenced Gnome-Rhône 9Krsd) 520hp air-cooled radial engine
- eg: MW 9K Mistral for WM-16 Budapest II (Fokker C.V derivative)
- Gnome-Rhône 14K Mistral Major (870 hp WM-K-14A/ 910 hp WM-K-14B) twin-row 14-cyl radial
- eg: WM-21, WM-23, MÁVAG Héjja, LüH He-170, LüH Ju-86K, etc.
- Daimler Benz DB605Bs (for Hungarian built Messerschmitt Me-210Ca-1/C-1s).

* Note: engines for MALÉRT/LüH WM-Caproni Ca.97 transports were Piaggio Jupiter VIIIs. WM engines were also applied to foreign-built aircraft for Hungary (eg: Fokker F.XIs).

WMM built a product range including bicycles, motorcycles, cars, buses, trucks, tractors, etc. Automobile production ended in the early 1930s. The larger motor vehicles were mostly licence-produced (John Deere tractors, FIAM trucks, etc.) until the appearance of the Csepel motorcycle, 6-wheeled lorries (WM HI and WM HII) for the Hungarian army, Straussler armoured cars, and the Turán tank series (including their M and Z engines - diesel and petrol V8s, respectively).
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Manfred Weiss Aircraft Designations

WM- designations (sometimes written as W.M. ) stand for 'Weiss Manfréd' (proper names being reversed in Magyar usage as compared with English). The company itself was the Weiss Manfréd Muvek (WMM or Manfred Weiss Works). The engine division was the Weiss Manfréd Repülogép- és Motorgyár Rt. (WM Rt).

___________________________________

Manfred Weiss 'WM' Sequence Designations

Manfred Weiss WM-1 -- (??)

Manfred Weiss WM-2 -- (??)

Manfred Weiss WM-3 -- 1932 Hungária 2-seat biplane trainer
- WM-3: WM Hungarian-licensed Udet U 12 Flamingó, x 40
- WM-3: 1 x 125 hp WM-Siemens & Halske Sh 12 radial, span 10.00 m

Manfred Weiss WM-4 -- (??)

Manfred Weiss WM-5 -- 1928* licenced Caproni Ca.97 airliner
- WM-5: High-winged cabin monoplane for MALÉRT airline, x 3
- WM-5: 1 x 500 hp Piaggio Jupiter VIII 9-cyl, span 16.00 m
-- * Deliv. to MALÉRT 1930, withdrawn 1931, tranferred to LüH
-- http://en.digivideofestmenyek.com/uploads/1462867613-H-MALD[1].jpg

Manfred Weiss WM-6 -- (??)

Manfred Weiss WM-7 -- (??)

Manfred Weiss WM-8 -- (??)

Manfred Weiss WM-9 -- 1928 Budapest 2-seat recce-bomber
- WM-9: Licence-built [1] long-span Fokker C.V-D biplanes, x 50*
- WM-9: 1 x 420 hp Gnome-Rhône Jupiter 9-cyl., span 12.50 m
-- Differed in 'N' vs 'V' wing struts, last 9 a/c had diff. u/c
-- * In 1927, 7 x C.V-D & 8 x C.V-E had been bought from Fokker

Manfred Weiss WM-10 - Ölyv (Buzzard) 1931* biplane trainer, x 14
-- * 1930 Andor Halász design, open cockpit, single-bay, span 10.00 m
- WM-10 prototype: 1 x 100 hp Manfred Weiss Sport I 4-cyl engine
-- WM-10 prototype: Completed Sept. 1931, 1 x built, H-MAKA/HA-AKA
- WM-10a production: 1933, 1 x 120 hp Manfred Weiss Sport II, x 8
-- As first produced, the WM-10a models were HA-AKB-through-HA-AKI
-- http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/other1/wm10/wm10-8.jpg
- WM-13 : Re-engined WM-10a HA-AKJ (see WM-13 entry below)
- EM-10: WM-10a re-engined with 110 hp Siemens Sh.12 9-cyl, x 5
-- EM-10: Basic trainers converted for military aerobatic training
-- Newly assigned regs for the EM-10s were HA-AKK-through-HA-AKO
-- https://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/GyenesCollin/12559.htm

Manfred Weiss WM-11 - 1929 Budapest 2-seat recce-bomber
- WM-11: WM licence-built Fokker C.V-E single-bay biplane
- WM-11: 1 x WM K-14 twin-row radial 14-cyl.,* span 15.30 m
-- * License-built Gnome-Rhône 14K Mistral Major engine

Manfred Weiss WM-12 - (Project) 193? trimotor passenger plane
- WM-12: High-winged monoplane; central engine above wings
- WM-12: 2 x (??) hp (??) engines; span (??) m
-- WM-12 designed by Andor Halász

Manfred Weiss WM-13 - 1934 re-engined WM-10a biplane trainer
- WM-13: Re-eng. WM-10 & EM-10s, more fuel, reduced wing span
- WM-13: 1 x 130 hp WM Sport III 4-cyl., span 9.50 m
-- WM-13 conversion were HA-AKO, HA-MAT, and HA-AKJ
-- http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/JS/Janes38-3/168-1.jpg

Manfred Weiss WM-14 - 193? Budapest 2-seat recce-bomber
- WM-14: WM licence-built Fokker C.V-D single-bay biplane
- WM-14: 1 x WM K-14 twin-row radial 14-cyl.,* span 12.50 m
-- * License-built Gnome-Rhône 14K Mistral Major engine
-- NB: 'WM-14' sometimes mis-applied to MW-licenced G-R 14K

Manfred Weiss WM-15 - (Project) 193? Futárgép (courier)
- WM-15: Anson-like transport with fixed undercarriage
- WM-15: 2 x 136 hp WM Sport III 4-cyl., span ~16.2 mm
-- 3v: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ers-airplanes-and-projects.27060/#post-544690
- WM-15: Cryptic ref. in Hungarian Wikipedia Miklós entry
-- https://hu.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoff_Miklós
-- Repülés 1971, XXIV, 3 is mentioned*
-- * Although WM-15 may not be referred to in journal

Manfred Weiss WM-16 - 1933 Budapest II recce-bomber
- WM-16 : Fokker C.V-D deriv. by L. Varga,* span 12.50 m
- WM-16A: 1 x 550 hp Gnome-Rhône 9K Mistral 9-cyl.
- WM-16A: Designated as 'scout' recce type by LüH, x 9
-- WM-16A: aka Budapest 9 (for its 9K engine)
-- WM-16A considered unsuitable for operational service
- WM-16B: 1 x 860 hp Gnome-Rhône 14K Mistral Major
- WM-16B: Designated as light bomber type by LüH, x 9
-- WM-16B: aka Budapest 14 (for its 14K engine)
-- * Varga was assisted by Andor Halász & Miklós Hoff
-- ** Some sources list 550 hp for G-R 9K output

Manfred Weiss WM-17 - (Project) Single-seat fighter
- WM-17: Low-powered fighter (or fighter-trainer?)
- WM-17: 1 x 350-400 hp WM K.7 radial,* Span (??) m
- WM-17: Design work circa 1934, no other details
-- * AFAIK, a non-existent (or unrealized) engine
-- * Poss. confused w/ 550 hp WM K.9 9-cyl. radial?
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/question-about-weiss-wm-17-wm-18.10487/#post-530061

Manfred Weiss WM-18 - (Project)* Single-seat fighter
- WM-18: Biplane (??) with gulled upper wings
- WM-18: 1 x 870 hp WM (Gnôme Rhone) K.14A 14-cyl.
- WM-18: Said to resemble IMAM Ro.41, no other details
-- * Some claims that WM-18 was actually built in 1936
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/question-about-weiss-wm-17-wm-18.10487/#post-530061
-- 3v: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ers-airplanes-and-projects.27060/#post-544690

Manfred Weiss WM-19 - (Project) Andor Halász tourer
- WM-19: No details, registered in WM drawing library

Manfred Weiss WM-20 - 1937 2-seat biplane basic trainer
- WM-20: Updated Heinkel HD 22 devel. by Halász & Hoff
- WM-20: 1 x 320 hp WM (G-R) K-7 radial, span 12.00 m
-- WM-20 meant as military trainer, perf. dissappointing
-- WM-20 civil reg. HA-PTA,* military serial was I.129
-- * Civil reg. HA-BOS and c/n 1301 are also noted
-- 3v: http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/other2/wm20/wm20-1.gif
-- http://histaviation.com/images/wwb_img11818.jpg

Manfred Weiss WM-21 - 1938 Sólyom (Falcon) recce-bomber
- WM-21: Simplified WM-16B for local production techniques*
-- WM-21 designed by Andor Halász, Miklós Hoff, and Béla Samu
-- * Stronger structure, revised wing, tailskid reintroduced
- WM-21 prototype: Civil reg. HA-AKX, c/n 12401
- WM-21 prototype: Civil reg. HA-AKY, c/n 12402
- WM-21 : 1 x 870 hp WM-K-14A 14-cyl. radial, span 12.90 m
-- 3v: http://aviadejavu.ru/Images6/AH/AH94-4/42-1.jpg
-- Manfred Weiss built 25 x WM-21, MÁVAG x 43, MWG x 60
-- Refs to 'WM-21A' and 'WM-21B' seem to be WM-16 confusions

Manfred Weiss WM-22 - (Project) 1939 2-seat recce monoplane
- WM-22: 2-seat deriv. of planned Béla Samu's Ezüst Nyíl
- WM-22: 1 x 870 hp WM-K-14A 14-cyl. radial, span (??) m
- WM-22: Longer canopy w/ defensive armament in rear cockpit
-- WM-22: aka WM-22B Felderitö (Reconnaissance) [2]

Manfred Weiss WM-23 Ezüst Nyíl (Silver Arrow) fighter
- WM-23: 1941 single-seat, single-engined fighter aircraft
- WM-23: 1 x 1,030 hp WM K-14B radial engine, span 10.60 m
- Designed by Béla Samu,* inspired by Heinkel He 112 airframe
-- * W/ Vilmos Marton, Tibor Milcsevics, Márton Pap, Jeno Pavláth
- WM-23 - prototype, 1 built, crashed on test flight
- WM-23B - (Project) Alt. desig. for WM-22 Felderitö (qv)
- WM-23G - (Project) Gyakorló 2-seat advanced trainer
-- WM-23G: Extended canopy, based on fighter not on WG-23B
- WM-23(?): BMW 801 radial considered for WM-23 deriv.**
-- ** BMW 801 WM-23 considered but not really designed
- WM-23(?): DB 605A IV-12 considered for WM-23 deriv.**
-- ** Daimler Benz-powered WM-23 never fully designed [3]
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/weiss-manfréd-wm-23-ezüst-nyíl-silver-arrow.3916/#post-30741

Manfred Weiss WM-24 - (??)
- WM-24: Possible alt. desig. for DB 605-powered WM-23 (qv)

Manfred Weiss WM-... (??)

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[1] WM negotiated rights for the Fokker C.Vs in 1927 (see Manfred Weiss Designation Problems)

[2] The terminology is slightly confusing. Felderitö (Reconnaissance) describes the role of the WM-22. But the alternative, suffixed WM-22B 'Bombazo' (perhaps for 'reconnaissance-bomber'. If that latter, this may suggest an intended WM-21 Sólyom replacement.

[3] Although a DB 605 powerplant was seriously considered for the WM-23, it is not entirely clear whether the designation WM-123 Ezüst Nyíl II was ever applied to this project. The WM-123 nomenclature may have been an entirely postwar application to this concept.

NB: The entirely fictitious XNI-02 Kaméleon jet fighter is sometimes attributed to Manfred Weiss

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Manfred Weiss Designation Problems

The Manfred Weiss' 'Budapest' series is very confusing. Some sources list WM-16A as Budapest I (with WM-16B as Budapest II). Other list the two later models as WM-16 Budapest A and WM-16 Budapest B. Still others list WM-16A as Budapest 9 and WM-16B as Budapest 14!

What is known is that, 1927, WM negotiated a license to produce 50 Fokker C.V-D fuselages and their Jupiter engines (presumably with Fokker supplying the wings and empennage). Some (or parts) of these aircraft seem to have been incorporated into later WM-16s. Still others were re-manufactured by other firms -- REGJÜ's C.V.D/K and the sole C.V.D/U 'Furricane'.


WMM licence-built a number of aircraft without obvious WM- designations. One source refers to licenced-built Caproni Ca.97 airliners - 4 to airline MALÉRT, H-MALD-'MALG in 1929 - as WM-5s. [1] Other licenced aircraft may explain the gaps in the early WM- series. The seemingly undesignated aircraft types are:

1928 - Heinkel HD.22, Gnome-Rhône Jupiter VI, 37 built (H-MPHB-'MPHZ, H-MPIA-'MPIO) [2]
1929 - Fokker F.VIII (2 to MALÉRT, July 1929/Oct 1930, 3 to LüH as H-MFNA-MFND) [3]

Golden Year of Aviation civil register lists over 100 WM-built Udet U 12s (elsewhere given the designation WM-3). http://www.goldenyears.ukf.net/reg_H-M.htm But sources disagree as to the mark of Hungária built at WMM. Some say Hungária I, others Hungária IV. [4]

There is also the question of whether WM- designations were applied to aircraft imported as pattern airframes with later WM production (eg: Fokker F.VIII H-MFNA) or imported patterns where no WM production ensued (eg: four Fokker D.XVI fighters). Then, there were licence production agreements without pattern airframe or production (eg: the Fokker G.1).

Finally, were distinct WM- designations ever applied to rebuilt/modified aircraft (eg: the two F.IIs and single F.III rebuilt as LüH ambulance aircraft or LüH Fokker F VIIs rebuilt by WM as ambulances)?
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[1] MALÉRT was short for Magyar Légiforgalmi Részvény Tarsasag or simply Magyar Légiforgalmi Rt.

[2] Some sources list 27 Heinkel HD 22s built at WMM, registration list suggest up to 40 (+ Heinkel-built H-MPHA)

[3] The 3 LüH Fokker F VIIIs were reregistered HA-FNB-'FND. In 1936, HA-FNC became an ambulance. WM also converted 2 Fokker-built F.VIIs as ambulances.

[4] There is also disagreement in sources as to the base variant of Flamingó being built at WMM. Some say U 12a, some U 12b (usually given as U 12/b).
______________________________________________
 
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Légügyi Hivatal (LüH) serials for Manfred Weiss-built Aircraft (partial list)

WM-Udet U12/b ------ 351-391
WM-Fokker C.V-E ---- 2201 (WM-9 prototype)
WM-Fokker C.V-D ---- 2202-2250 [Budapest I, WM-11 ?]
WM-16A Budapest II - 12101-12109
WM-Fokker C.V-E ---- 2101-2109 [Budapest I, WM-9 ?]
WM-21 Sólyom ------- 12121-12133 (first WM series)
WM-Fokker C.V-D ---- 2301-2308 [Budapest I, WM-14 ?]
WM-16B Budapest II - 5201-5209
WM-Heinkel HD-22 --- 1201-1230
WM-20 (prototype) -- 11250
_______________________________________
 
Hi,

I found this Info about WM-15,and the google translate told me it means; Machine Courier ?.

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoff_Mikl%C3%B3s
 
hesham said:
Dear Apophenia,

please add those details and new projects to the topic;

Click to expand...

Apophenia,

I think the WM.5 is not right,and the early WM five designations as I guess are
here;

  • Hungária I: similar to U 12a with N-type interplane struts
  • Hungária II: similar to U 12a with N-type interplane struts
  • Hungária III: similar to U 12a with N-type interplane struts, propeller spinner and Townend ring
  • Hungária IV: similar to U 12a. Only Hungarian-built version with I-type interplane struts
  • Hungária V: similar to U 12a with N-type interplane struts
en.wikipedia.org

Udet U 12 Flamingo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
hesham said:

Apophenia,

I think the WM.5 is not right,and the early WM five designations as I guess are
here;

  • Hungária I: similar to U 12a with N-type interplane struts
  • Hungária II: similar to U 12a with N-type interplane struts
  • Hungária III: similar to U 12a with N-type interplane struts, propeller spinner and Townend ring
  • Hungária IV: similar to U 12a. Only Hungarian-built version with I-type interplane struts
  • Hungária V: similar to U 12a with N-type interplane struts
Click to expand...

Hmm, ... having five 'MW' designations for the Hungarian Udets doesn't really make sense.

Although there were five Hungária variants, half of those licensed U-12s were built by KRG - not by Manfréd Weiss. So, why would there be 'MW' designations imposed upon the Flamingos built by another firm?

I guess the research question now is: Which of those five Hungária variants were built by Manfréd Weiss?
 

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hesham said:

Apophenia,please add these explanations and new projects to the list,in mentioned
topic.

For WM company's products,no,it was the building of those five designations,please see,also the Fokker F.VIII.
Click to expand...

Sorry hesham, the list has been tweaked but I don't understand what you mean by "the building of those five designations". I would also be curious as to the source of your clippings. There seem to be a number of inaccuracies:

- 1: "... plus 80 examples in 5 version of Hungária (Udet U.12 Flamingo)."
-- As already noted, Manfréd Weiss only built x 40; KRG built the others

- 2: Sport III did not power the WM-10;* that engine type defined the WM-13 designation
-- * FWIW, Prototype had a 100 hp Sport I while production WM-10a had 120 hp Sport II

- 3: WM-16A wasn't powered by a licensed GR Jupiter - that was the WM-9
-- WM-16A was powered by a licensed GR 9Krsd Mistral - the WM K-9
 
hesham said:
and there was also Heinkel HD22;
Click to expand...

Thanks hesham. I had mentioned the Heinkel HD 22 and some of its designation challenges in reply #3. That also comes up in reply #4 on Légügyi Hivatal serials (WM-built HD 22s serials are given as #1201-through-1230, with the one-off, updated WM-20 as #11250).

The absence of proof for an 'WM' designation for the Fokker F.VIII (H-MFNA) is also noted in reply #3.

I had also touched upon the designation challenges for WM-built Udets. To recap, sources vary even on whether it was the U 12a or U 12b model being built by Manfréd Weiss. Again, sources vary on whether the model name built was the Hungária I or Hungária IV. It might have been both (with an implication that KRG built the Hungária II Hungária III models). But, so far, this is all 'he said/she said' with no way to confirm any of it.

On Hungária numbers, note reply #4. Only 40 x LüH serials were issued for Manfred Weiss-built 'U12/b' trainers (#351-through-391).
 
My dear Apophenia,

please add this;
WM—12 utasgép. Tervezte: Halász Andor. Ennek a gépnek tervei csak részben készültek el. A felső szárnyas utasgép egy harmadik, szárnyfölötti, középső motorral ellátott típus lett volna, s a harmadik motor tartóbakját még a szárnyfelületen külön kábelekkel merevítették.
WM—12 passenger plane. Designed by: Andor Halász. The plans for this machine are only partially completed. The upper-wing passenger plane would have been a type with a third, above-wing, central engine, and the support frame of the third engine was still braced with separate cables on the wing surface.

 

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