Weiss Manfréd WM-23 "Ezüst Nyíl' "Silver Arrow"

Zizi6785

Zizi6785

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Span: 9.60m,
Length: 9.10m,
Height: 3.10m,
wing area: 23.5 sq.m,
Engine Mfg: Manfred Weiss, Model: WM-K14/B (761 kW) (licence Gnome-Rhone 14Kfrs),
Empty: 2100kg,
Normal Max: 2600kg,
Overload: 3290kg,
Max Speed: 530kph,
Cruise: 472kph,
Rate of Climb: 1000 mpm,
Range: 600km,
2 x 7.62mm MG + 2 x 20mm cannons.
 

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airman said:
the project seems was started from core of reggiane 2000 ! ::)
Click to expand...

Hungary acquired three He-112B-1/U2s in early 1939. But they also bought 70 Falcos (V-401 - V-470) from Reggiane as the Héja I. Both types were further developed in Hungary.

Perhaps you were thinking of the Hungarian-built Re.2000 derivative with Manfred Weiss-licenced K-14, the MÁVAG Héja II?
 
Additional info
Unknown source
 

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Additional info
Unknown source
Post-2
 

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thanks Justo : incredible they had studied all possible configurations for WM-23 ! :)
 
airman said:
thanks Justo : incredible they had studied all possible configurations for WM-23 ! :)
Click to expand...

All other configurations are fake.
Only the single seat version were be planned and built.
 
Thanks for the information and beautiful drawings. I was just trying to find the story of this interesting airplane. At the end it never came into production?
 
Yeah, those unusual WM.23 configurations are totally fictional. You see, I am the illustrator of the last several WM.23 drawings that Justo posted (I had sent them to him a few years ago for him to use as he wished. Guess he merely forgot who they were from and that's OK). The WM.23 with the Daimler-Benz engine was, according to the sources I had available to me at the time, considered but never really "designed". The 2-seat reconnaissance variant was designed at the same time as the single-seat fighter, but was never considered for production. I do believe that Weiss-Manfred (Manfred-Weiss according to some sources) was considering a German radial for the planned production model (memory wants me to say the BMW-801, but I don't think that that would have been available).

It would be interesting to see what the WM.23 would have been like with a BMW-801, though. Now just let me find the CADD files...

Anyway, all the other "designs" were just my imagination working overtime, as it is wont to do with interesting airplanes.

The Hungarians only built ONE WM.23 and that one crashed sometime during the flight test phase.

On another note, while some sources designated the Daimler-Benz version as the WM.123, other, more reliable Hungarian sources, state that this variant was probably designated as the WM.22 (or maybe the WM.24? Please correct me if I am wrong).

Last note for Justo: Please my friend, don't think I am accusing you of plagiarism or stealing my drawings. I know you to be an honorable and trustworthy man, and THE BEST DAMNED ILLUSTRATOR I HAVE EVER SEEN!! I may not have put my name of the drawings when I gave them to you. My apologies.
 

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It should be interesting to split the "might have been designs"
from the pure fictional ones...
 
The WM-123 with DB.605 engine is very beautiful anyway, completing the DB family of 1940s fighter-beauties (He100, Bf109, Pyorremyrsky, Italian ones?). Thanks to have presented it!
 
All other configurations are fake.
Only the single seat version were be planned and built.
Click to expand...


pictures are numbered 1 to 14, could you please tell me which numbers are fictional please?

Thanks a lot
 
The fictional ones are numbered 11 through 14. Believe me, I could have gotten even more weird than those if I had the time to "play" with the drawings more!
 
As far as I know, #7, the Daimler-Benz powered WM.23, was a real project, although it never progressed further than the drawing board. Pity.

Now, imagine, if the WM.23 HAD entered full-scale service with Hungary's air force in 1941. How would it have faired against Allied (i.e American & British) planes and how would it have faired against the Soviet Air Force?

Would the Hungarians, after being overrrun by the Soviets, have attempted to use a Soviet radial in the plane?

Ah, the imagination is a terrible thing to waste, but such fun to use!
 
On September 1938 the Hungarian Ministry of War Affairs ordered thirty-six Heinkel He 112B fighters, but the Germans deliberately delayed the fulfilment of the order, for political reasons, and refused to hand over the license for the Jumo 211 engine. Hungary only received two He 112 B-1/U2 demonstrators in 1939 and one He 112 B-1 in 1940.

By the end of 1939 the Hungarian Government took the decision to produce a simplified version of the He 112 adapted to the possibilities of the local aviation industry. The new aircraft, called Weiss Manfréd WM 23 Ezüst Nyil, would be propelled by a 1,000 hp Gnôme & Rhône 14 Kfrs radial engine driving a Hamilton-Standard propeller.

The wings, with Fowler flaps, would have been built in wood/plywood and the fuselage in welded-steel tube with plywood skinning. The armament, installed in the fuselage, would consist of two 8 mm Gebauer machine guns and two 20 mm synchronised Mauser MG 151 cannons. It was just built a prototype (530 kph) that demonstrated good flying characteristics during its first flight on September 1941. It was destroyed in 1942 due to malfunction of the starboard aileron.

The improved version Ezüst Nyil II, with all-metal monocoque fuselage and 1,475 hp DB 605 engine (planned for 1943) was discontinued when the Germans allowed the manufacture under license of the Messerschmitt Bf 109 G.
 
TorakLt said:
airman said:
the project seems was started from core of reggiane 2000 ! ::)
Click to expand...
Not! instead a He-112 with Wm K-14 engine....
Click to expand...
True, but does anyone know why Hungary was pursuing the He112 when they had the Re2000? The latter was in the same class, seems structurally simpler, and we know, at least with hindsight, that Reggiane airframe could take the DB605G.
 
iverson said:
TorakLt said:
airman said:
the project seems was started from core of reggiane 2000 ! ::)
Click to expand...
Not! instead a He-112 with Wm K-14 engine....
Click to expand...
True, but does anyone know why Hungary was pursuing the He112 when they had the Re2000? The latter was in the same class, seems structurally simpler, and we know, at least with hindsight, that Reggiane airframe could take the DB605G.
Click to expand...
Reggiane fighters had an extremely complex structure and required a hell of working hours to be produced, that is the key reasons Reggiane's figther were never mass produced and inducted in Italian service even if they were always better than their main direct competitors (mc 200 and G50 for the 2000, MC 202 for the 2001 and G55 and MC205V for the 2005)
 
ceccherini said:
iverson said:
TorakLt said:
airman said:
the project seems was started from core of reggiane 2000 ! ::)
Click to expand...
Not! instead a He-112 with Wm K-14 engine....
Click to expand...
True, but does anyone know why Hungary was pursuing the He112 when they had the Re2000? The latter was in the same class, seems structurally simpler, and we know, at least with hindsight, that Reggiane airframe could take the DB605G.
Click to expand...
Reggiane fighters had an extremely complex structure and required a hell of working hours to be produced, that is the key reasons Reggiane's figther were never mass produced and inducted in Italian service even if they were always better than their main direct competitors (mc 200 and G50 for the 2000, MC 202 for the 2001 and G55 and MC205V for the 2005)
Click to expand...
My understanding was that the He112 structure was heavy, expensive, and complex. I'd have thought that the gull wing alone would create complexities and weight penalties. The main issue with the Re2000 being its integral wing fuel tanks, which were inspired by American practice and thus unfamiliar.

I have structural manuals or excerpts for the Re.2000, G.50, and MC.205V. While I admit that I have never actually built an airplane, the Re.2000 structure does not look significantly more complex--just different: cellular center section and outer wings.

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
iverson said:
ceccherini said:
iverson said:
TorakLt said:
airman said:
the project seems was started from core of reggiane 2000 ! ::)
Click to expand...
Not! instead a He-112 with Wm K-14 engine....
Click to expand...
True, but does anyone know why Hungary was pursuing the He112 when they had the Re2000? The latter was in the same class, seems structurally simpler, and we know, at least with hindsight, that Reggiane airframe could take the DB605G.
Click to expand...
Reggiane fighters had an extremely complex structure and required a hell of working hours to be produced, that is the key reasons Reggiane's figther were never mass produced and inducted in Italian service even if they were always better than their main direct competitors (mc 200 and G50 for the 2000, MC 202 for the 2001 and G55 and MC205V for the 2005)
Click to expand...
My understanding was that the He112 structure was heavy, expensive, and complex. I'd have thought that the gull wing alone would create complexities and weight penalties. The main issue with the Re2000 being its integral wing fuel tanks, which were inspired by American practice and thus unfamiliar.

I have structural manuals or excerpts for the Re.2000, G.50, and MC.205V. While I admit that I have never actually built an airplane, the Re.2000 structure does not look significantly less complex--just different: cellular center section and outer wings.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

That is only true of the early 112s. The production version was essentially an all new aircraft, and had gone through an intense production rationalization program. I can't recall the name of the engineer in charge of it, but later on Ernst Heinkel would place blame for the 177 debacle at his feet.
 
Yes but our country isn't big as well, roughly 600km x 250km (Current size) with the regained territories in WW2 it was 750km x 350km with a number of airbases and airfields around the country, basically in almost every major city.
 
iverson said:
ceccherini said:
iverson said:
TorakLt said:
airman said:
the project seems was started from core of reggiane 2000 ! ::)
Click to expand...
Not! instead a He-112 with Wm K-14 engine....
Click to expand...
True, but does anyone know why Hungary was pursuing the He112 when they had the Re2000? The latter was in the same class, seems structurally simpler, and we know, at least with hindsight, that Reggiane airframe could take the DB605G.
Click to expand...
Reggiane fighters had an extremely complex structure and required a hell of working hours to be produced, that is the key reasons Reggiane's figther were never mass produced and inducted in Italian service even if they were always better than their main direct competitors (mc 200 and G50 for the 2000, MC 202 for the 2001 and G55 and MC205V for the 2005)
Click to expand...
My understanding was that the He112 structure was heavy, expensive, and complex. I'd have thought that the gull wing alone would create complexities and weight penalties. The main issue with the Re2000 being its integral wing fuel tanks, which were inspired by American practice and thus unfamiliar.

I have structural manuals or excerpts for the Re.2000, G.50, and MC.205V. While I admit that I have never actually built an airplane, the Re.2000 structure does not look significantly more complex--just different: cellular center section and outer wings.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
The Italians did not adapt well to Seversky's manufacturing methods and the result was excessive structural complexity.
 
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