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Lockheed A-12 and SR-71 projects

NERVA

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Report on Oxcart program; 1954 - 1974.


http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/DOC_0000190094.pdf
 

hesham

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Hi,


does anyone hear about a advanced recce aircraft of early 1960s,called RX-X,for
6 Mach design,and did it relate to Lockheed SR-71 ?.


FR 3/1964
 

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hesham

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bring_it_on

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptPRi7R3Bfw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA-IlxODOPk
 

FighterJock

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So what was faster in terms of overall speed? A-12 or SR-71A? I have heard many stories over the years that the SR-71A was faster than the A-12, could someone clear this up for me. :-\
 

sferrin

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FighterJock said:
So what was faster in terms of overall speed? A-12 or SR-71A? I have heard many stories over the years that the SR-71A was faster than the A-12, could someone clear this up for me. :-\

I'd heard it was the other way because the A-12 was significantly lighter. Could fly higher too.
 

FighterJock

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sferrin said:
FighterJock said:
So what was faster in terms of overall speed? A-12 or SR-71A? I have heard many stories over the years that the SR-71A was faster than the A-12, could someone clear this up for me. :-\

I'd heard it was the other way because the A-12 was significantly lighter. Could fly higher too.

Thanks sferrin.
 

Johnbr

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B)
 

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circle-5

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Interesting how the background mountains and landscape features of NW Groom Lake were carefully airbrushed away, to make the location unrecognizable. Our airbrush artists were much better than theirs.
 

sferrin

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More.
 

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JimK

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FighterJock said:
So what was faster in terms of overall speed? A-12 or SR-71A? I have heard many stories over the years that the SR-71A was faster than the A-12, could someone clear this up for me. :-\

From COMIREX-D-12.1/1 (Approved for release Date: Aug 2007)

I would interpret the equality of Mach numbers listed as a propulsion system limitation.
 

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FighterJock

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JimK said:
FighterJock said:
So what was faster in terms of overall speed? A-12 or SR-71A? I have heard many stories over the years that the SR-71A was faster than the A-12, could someone clear this up for me. :-\

From COMIREX-D-12.1/1 (Approved for release Date: Aug 2007)

I would interpret the equality of Mach numbers listed as a propulsion system limitation.

Thanks for that JimK, good information that has gone on to help me with my initial problem. B)
 

Archibald

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Despite my best efforts I couldn't find whether this has been posted before on this forum.

In 1973 the Shah of Iran got interested in all those A-12 Oxcart stored at Palmdale since 1968 (and the program was not declassified until 1982 !)
http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.com/archives/a-11_iran.html
 

TomS

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Archibald said:
Despite my best efforts I couldn't find whether this has been posted before on this forum.

In 1973 the Shah of Iran got interested in all those A-12 Oxcart stored at Palmdale since 1968 (and the program was not declassified until 1982 !)
http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.com/archives/a-11_iran.html

It's not clear from the letter whether Iran had been made aware of the idea. They ask permission to submit a "specific proposal" to Iran; it's possible that Lockheed as doing the groundwork to see if the offer was even possible before approaching Iran.

As far as declassification, President Johnson had "outed" the YF-12 in early 1964 but called it the "A-11." He also announced the SR-71 later that year. The "fact of" the A-11/A-12 program was probably known by this point, though not who had owned them or where they had flown.

From a technical perspective, what's interesting to me is the suggestion of a strike capability against either land or sea targets with "currently available" armament. Clearly this meant conventional weapons, but I don't think anyone has seen a description of non-nuclear strike capabilities for this family using conventional weapons (there is a passing reference in this thread to anti-ship with tungsten kinetic energy penetrators, but that seems unlikely to qualify as "currently available.") Any ideas? I really doubt you could get useful effects with one or two iron bombs from a Mach 3, and laser guidance seems unlikely, since it would have required the "F-12" to slow down and loiter. Possibly a conventional version of the AGM-76 Falcon?
 

_Del_

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It cites Bob Singel and Dr. John L. McLucas, so the proposal had some juice. This wasn't a back of the napkin, what if. Also mentions a loose timeline, which suggests that some sort of unofficial discusion between principals in Iran and the US had taken place.

The armament bit is very, very interesting.
 

sferrin

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TomS said:
Archibald said:
Despite my best efforts I couldn't find whether this has been posted before on this forum.

In 1973 the Shah of Iran got interested in all those A-12 Oxcart stored at Palmdale since 1968 (and the program was not declassified until 1982 !)
http://www.roadrunnersinternationale.com/archives/a-11_iran.html

It's not clear from the letter whether Iran had been made aware of the idea. They ask permission to submit a "specific proposal" to Iran; it's possible that Lockheed as doing the groundwork to see if the offer was even possible before approaching Iran.

As far as declassification, President Johnson had "outed" the YF-12 in early 1964 but called it the "A-11." He also announced the SR-71 later that year. The "fact of" the A-11/A-12 program was probably known by this point, though not who had owned them or where they had flown.

From a technical perspective, what's interesting to me is the suggestion of a strike capability against either land or sea targets with "currently available" armament. Clearly this meant conventional weapons, but I don't think anyone has seen a description of non-nuclear strike capabilities for this family using conventional weapons (there is a passing reference in this thread to anti-ship with tungsten kinetic energy penetrators, but that seems unlikely to qualify as "currently available.") Any ideas? I really doubt you could get useful effects with one or two iron bombs from a Mach 3, and laser guidance seems unlikely, since it would have required the "F-12" to slow down and loiter. Possibly a conventional version of the AGM-76 Falcon?

SRAM was around, and there are drawings around of a Blackbird carrying four of them, along with possible performance parameters.
 

TomS

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sferrin said:
SRAM was around, and there are drawings around of a Blackbird carrying four of them, along with possible performance parameters.

But there was no conventional version of SRAM and its inertial guidance wasn't really suitable for conventional strike, especially against maritime targets.
 

blackkite

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Hi!
AF-12, FB-12(?) and B-12 drawings.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=9571&start=60

AF-12 : long-range interceptor fighter type. later renamed to YF-12A.
B-12 : A-12 bomber type. Rejected.
RB-12 : A-12 reconnaissance bomber type. Rejected.
R-12 : A-12 reconnaissance type. later renamed to SR-71A.
RS-12 : A-12 reconnaissance strike type. Rejected.

B-12(B-71)
http://www.cavok.com.br/blog/a-de-ataque-lockheed-a-12-oxcart-o-pai-do-sr-71-blackbird-parte-6/
RB-12
http://www.hitechweb.genezis.eu/blackbird3.htm
 

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FighterJock

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To this day I am surprised that they never fitted the YF-12 with four air-air missiles, anyone know why this was? :-\
 

Arjen

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http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-47.html
In 1960 Lockheed began developing what would become the YF-12A interceptor derivative of the CIA's A-12 reconnaissance aircraft. As the F-108 had been cancelled, Hughes joined with Lockheed and the weapon system which had once belonged to the LRI-X found a new home in a Lockheed Blackbird. The YF-12A featured four weapon bays, but the forward bay on the starboard side was used for excess electronics equipment associated with the fire control system.
 

blackkite

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I can't understand the difference between B-12, RB-12 and RS-12.
The plan which called FB-12 existed?

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3780.45.html
 

blackkite

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F-12B armament : M61 cannon×1, AIM-47B AAM×3
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3780.0;attach=578729;image
AIM-47B
http://www.ausairpower.net/Falcon-Evolution.html#mozTocId63933

B-12 armament : AAM×2, SRAM×2 or SRAM×4, What is nose large radar? Anti AWACS AAM FCS radar?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3780.0;attach=578731;image
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3780.0;attach=578733;image
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
The evidence of R-12 plan. You can see same drawing in "LOCKHEED SR-71" by Paul F Crickmore with drafter's sign.
And AF-12 large size drawing with AIM-47B AAM.

http://lurch2.blogspot.jp/2014/02/lockheed-yf-12.html
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/oxcart-vs-blackbird-do-you-know-the-difference.364700/

I found interesting description about RB-12 and RS-12 in this book.(Page 5)
[/b][/b]https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=u6-dCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=Lockheed+RB-12&source=bl&ots=5rDA7J6aTr&sig=bpJ12UiYfuXideZ7pIpba781Sc4&hl=ja&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0kLTm7NDTAhWCWbwKHTIdD3YQ6AEIZDAK#v=onepage&q=Lockheed%20RB-12&f=false
 

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blackkite

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I imagine that.......
RB-12 was a multi role reconnaissance bomber with free fall nuclear bomb and camera/sensor.
RS-12 was a multi role reconnaissance strike bomber with SRAM and camera/sensor.
B-12 was a bomber with only SRAM or only free fall nuclear bomb.
FB-12 was a fighter bomber with anti AWACS missile and SRAM.
Perhaps my opinion is terrible mistake. ;D

What is this drawing? B-12 bomb bay with free fall bomb?
http://www.cavok.com.br/blog/a-de-ataque-lockheed-a-12-oxcart-o-pai-do-sr-71-blackbird-parte-6/

Any information here?
http://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&ved=0ahUKEwjq-_CgktHTAhVDQLwKHRpOADU4ChAWCDAwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.roadrunnersinternationale.com%2Fcrew_listing%2FLOCKHEED%2520SRA12%2520Numbers.doc&usg=AFQjCNFTlFg0vp3qNKSM6aiY3iGATHRyMg

"SR-71A
As A-12, high-altitude 2-seater reconn./surveillance aircraft.
Larger fuselage, more fuel, ventral fins deleted. Original
designations were RS-12, B-12, B-71, then RS-71.
S/n sometimes incorrectly presented as 64-17950 / 64-17955
and 64-17958 / 64-17980.
Produced 1964 - 1967
Lockheed Burbank, California (LO) "
 

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blackkite

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Hi! F-12B.

http://lurch2.blogspot.jp/2014/02/lockheed-yf-12.html
http://s36.photobucket.com/user/MihoshiK/media/F12B.jpg.html

And YF-12A 1/12 scale wind tunnel test model.
http://marvellouswings.com/Aircraft/Fighter/F-12/F-12.html
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Time line of SR-71.
http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/sr-71timeline.pdf

Home page of upper document.
http://roadrunnersinternationale.com/index.html
 

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blackkite

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I found three blackbird drawings which carry SRAM missile and carry different type nose radars.
Please check attached pdf file.

I want to see RB-12 and RS-12 general arrangement cutaway drawing.
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7diDWBrTjr0
 

blackkite

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And excellent book. "Lockheed Martin's Skunk Works" by Great Jay Miller.
http://www.militarymuseum.org/Lockheed-Skunk-Works.pdf

Please check page 123.
 

blackkite

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Hi!
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/recon/sr71/

"KNOWN VARIANTS:
Oxcart Classified designation given to the A-12 project by the CIA
Senior Crown Classified designation given to the SR-71 project
A-11 Archangel Lockheed's internal designation for its proposal to meet the CIA's high-speed reconnaissance aircraft requirement
A-12 Original design concept for a high speed bomber/interceptor, but built as a single-seat recon/strike platform, based on the
A-11 design but with improvements to lower the radar cross section; 13 built (5 lost)
M-21 Originally intended as A-12 airframes but modified during construction with a second seat for an officer to operate the D-21
drone, the new designation refers to the aircraft's role as a mothership (M-21) to launch the daughter (D-21) and increase reconnaissance
range; 2 built (1 lost)
YF-12A Initially designed as an interceptor prototype equipped with a Hughes AN/ASG-18 pulse-Doppler radar in the nose and tandem
weapons bays for AIM-47 air-to-air missiles, later used by NASA as Mach 3 research aircraft; 3 built (2 lost)
F-12B Proposed production model of the YF-12A to serve as a USAF high-speed interceptor; cancelled
YF-12C A-12 airframe modified with increased fuel capacity and other refinements to test many of the improvements incorporated into
the SR-71; 1 converted
RB-12 A proposed reconnaissance bomber variant that reached the mockup stage before being cancelled
RS-12 Proposed strike model
B-12 or B-71 Proposed dedicated bomber variants
RS-71A Original designation for the dedicated reconnaissance model
SR-71A Definitive reconnaissance model with aerodynamic refinements, improved airframe, greater range, and fitted with advanced
surveillance equipment; 29 built (11 lost)
SR-71B Two-seat trainer with a separate raised cockpit for an instructor pilot; 2 built (1 lost)
SR-71C Two-seat trainer rebuilt from a YF-12A structural test model and incorporating parts from other crashed airframes, built to
replace one of the SR-71B trainers that was lost, later used by NASA; 1 converted"

"UNKNOWN VARIANTS:
FB-12

Cutaway drawing.
https://thelexicans.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/yf12cutaway.gif
 

Archibald

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All SOC images on page 1 are gone, courtesy of Phuckerbucket randsom of 400$. Can SOC restore the links ?
 

SOC

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Not sure I have an account anywhere else to host the files, but if you want the images I can email them your way.
 

TomS

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SOC said:
Not sure I have an account anywhere else to host the files, but if you want the images I can email them your way.

You could just upload them to this site.
 

SOC

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;D whoops, yeah I guess that would probably work too LOL I'll dig the files out this weekend and see if they can be reloaded. Might have to resize a few things.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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You are allowed 5mb per image and 20mb per post. If this isn't enough I can sideload onto the server.
 

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Cutaway Lockheed A-12, author Rigatto and modified by Motocar
 

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