Late '50s Avro Canada Projects

Yeah a lot of fuss is made about "Black friday" but the program was essentially over by September 1958, with the ambiguous document you mention.
Again, what killed the Arrow wasn't any cost overruns or failure in the airframe and engines: they were perfectly fine. World-class: analog FBW akin to a Mirage 2000 twenty years ahead; as for the Iroquois, it was more than a match for J75, Olympus, and others - except the Canadians - Orenda - had started mostly from scratch.

The real, huge, mistakes were related to the radar & missiles. There, the Arrow was headed into a brickwall since 1956.
-The Sparrow II atempt at creating an AMRAAM 30 years before the date was doomed, K-band hated any sort of atmospheric water, which on planet Earth is definitively everywhere.
-As for RCA & Astra, it was a disaster in the making, too expensive and ambitious, partially because of RCAF blue-sky requirements.
-Bad luck for Avro Canada: by the late 1950's the avionics / radar / missile area was fast becoming the most expensive bit of any fighter aircraft, way beyond airframe / engine - the latter had no real issue as far as the Arrow was concerned. It had started with the F-89 Scorpion and the trend carries on to this day (stealth added its own complexities and expenses, TBH).

What is really infuriating is that, before 1956 AND after September 1958 (but too late) common sense prevailed: the Arrow back then was to have a F-106 radar and Falcon missiles. Whatever the flaws in that system, it had two big advantages
- it was paid by the Americans and proved to work: "off the shelves" as they say
- because of the above, it may have "anchored" the Arrow to NORAD as the F-101B & BOMARC did for the RCAF after 1961. "Hey look we are using the same systems as Uncle Sam".
 
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It's not that simple. Some American technology was classified which complicated things for AVRO. Had the Canadian government been an actual partner in North American Air Defense then this should not have been a problem. The Americans held all the cards. Canada just happened to be in the wrong geographic location. When the Russians deployed ICBMs in 1958 and the Americans following in 1959, which way would those missiles go? Over the North Pole, across Canada, and on their way to hit targets in the United States.
 
starviking said:
hesham said:
From Canadian Aircraft Since 1909,

the early three proposals for CF-100.
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A strong Gloster CXP-1001 feel for the middle one, with the nose intake relocated to the sides.
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Indeed all the designs look very Gloster'ish. As for the middle one, CXP-1001 with the nose intake relocated to the sides makes the E.1/44.

I wonder what engines (and how many of them) were to be used in those projects. The first is rather undoubtly a single-engined airplane, but I feel the CXP-1001/E.1/44 look-a-like might have had two engines. Its fuselage looks if it were rather quite fat, doesn't it? As for the plane with two engines in nacelles I suspect that is the project for which the TR.4 Chinook was built.

The book unfortunately says nothing more on the projects. Maybe someone here knows something on that?

Piotr
 
From Canadian Aircraft since 1909,

there is Executive aircraft project of 1959.
 

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Archibald said:
What is really infuriating is that, before 1956 AND after September 1958 (but too late) common sense prevailed: the Arrow back then was to have a F-106 radar and Falcon missiles.
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The F-106 mission system elements were still really expens.ive though from my understanding. Development into the 2 seat Arrow wouldn't have been trivial either -might be easier to take one seat out. Also need to acquire the ground based GCI elements to make the system work.

All in all its a very complicated and expensive way to launch 1 or 2 Genies at a target. And about 5 years later you could buy a Phantom instead...
 
What was the designation system for aircraft and projects for this company ?,a P series
or model?,and it was begun from which number ?.
 
Also need to acquire the ground based GCI elements to make the system work.
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NORAD, SAGE. The Americans wanted the Canadians to be part of that. Part of it would be paid in the name of North American Air Defense. No ?
 
What was this drone ?.
 

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hesham said:
What was the designation system for aircraft and projects for this company ?,a P series
or model?,and it was begun from which number ?.
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Avro Canada's designation style was all over the shop. Project were just as likely to be referred to by role abbreviations or specification numbers. A few of the Avro Canada designation types were:

C = Canada; began with C100 fighter concepts finalized as what became the CF101 Canuck.
- Avro Canada aircraft designations sometimes rendered with dot (C.100) or hyphen (C-100)

P = Project; presumably started at 'P.1'; eg: P.13 anti-missile missile; sequence reached P.450 (the Advanced Projects Group's final design). P.470.

PS = Project Study; began with PS.1/PS.2 Arrow variants
- Later also applied to Orenda engines; eg: PS-13 Iroquois

Another subject: Coventry Archives reference PA1716/5/8/27 entitled P.146: Armstrong Siddeley Motors Project design study re. the Avro Atlantic
-- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/1810761e-37ff-4a9f-a644-053c15703b5f

This collection is for a series of memos on engine design dated 12 January 1954. One is listed as "Memo from Mr Thomas to Mr Chapman re. P.146 (15,000 lbs) for Avro Canada."

My wild guess would be that the Armstrong Siddeley P.146 would have been aimed at Project 25, that 1956 "Long-Range Jet Transport for TCA". Does anyone know for sure what this memo pertains to?
 
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BlackBat242 said:
hesham said:
Apophenia said:
- Subsonic Jet Trainer
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From Canadian Aircraft since 1909.
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CT-114 Tutor?
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The CL-41 Tutor began as a Canadair private venture design about five years later than this Avro Canada concept. The prototype Tutor flew 2 years before Avro Canada tanked so I doubt that there was any 'design DNA' spill-over.

My wild guess - based solely on that word "Subsonic" - is that Avro Canada was envisioning a replacement for the RCAF's CL-30 Silver Stars.

Edit: Thanks hesham ... I'd quite forgotten the P.470!
 
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hesham said:

From Bernard Collection, ...
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You have mentioned this Bernard Collection a number of times recently. What/where is it?

[edit: Just to clarify, that was meant as a question.]
 
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Possible Export ? Avro CF-100 was expected to enter service with W. German Air Force via. MAP. funding, sale cancelled
 

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