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Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner

Apophenia

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A pair of early C.102 Jetliner studies from The Avro Canada C102 Jetliner, by Jim Floyd (ISBN 0-919783-66-X).

Both studies have twin Rolls-Royce AJ.65s (Avro Canada was denied access to the Avon engine for its civilian project, hence the later adoption of four Derwents).

The final AJ.65-powered C.102 concept had the engines slung beneath the wings. The original concept had a through-spar arrangement for the AJ.65s.

There was also a turboprop variation studied on behalf of Trans-Canada Airlines. This version was to be powered by four Armstrong-Siddeley Mamba turboprops. See Scale Modelling, CGI and Profiles for conjectual drawings of the Mamba-powered Jetliner.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5184.0.html
 

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Triton

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfPhIT7VLVg


Three-view drawing of Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner.

Photograph of Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner.

Another photograph of Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner.


Photograph of Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner.


Photograph of Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner.


Sources:
http://www.aviastar.org/air/canada/canada_c-102.php
http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/sutra176078.php
http://www.airventure.de/history6.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/78215847@N00/3811649943/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/eyeno/560821444/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/78215847@N00/3806158647/
 

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Hammer Birchgrove

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I've been thinking if it had been possible* to equip it with stronger engines, possibly turbo fans later on, and to enlarge the aircraft. Or would it have been a one time wonder?

Sure looks like a nice bird. :)

*From both technological and economical viewpoints.
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Early Avro Canada C.102 Jetliner Studies

I found this Avro Jetliner project online and it's quite a different, later variant. I thought the Jetliner program had been abandoned earlier than this design suggests... Can anyone put a precise date on it?
 

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palg

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Re: Early Avro Canada C.102 Jetliner Studies

Stargazer said:
I found this Avro Jetliner project online and it's quite a different, later variant. I thought the Jetliner program had been abandoned earlier than this design suggests... Can anyone put a precise date on it?


Hi There


It looks like the 1956 concept depicted here in this related thread: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5182.0/all.html
 

Stargazer2006

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Re: Early Avro Canada C.102 Jetliner Studies


palg said:
It looks like the 1956 concept depicted here in this related thread: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5182.0/all.html


Well done! I think it's exactly that.


I'm linking the image here for comparison, but if a mod sees it fit to move my post to that topic it's perfectly fine by me:


 

hesham

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Re: Early Avro Canada C.102 Jetliner Studies

Grear find Plag.
 

Archibald

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Re: Early Avro Canada C.102 Jetliner Studies

beautiful design, looks like a modern bizjet...
 

riggerrob

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The Jetliner was not economically viable with first-generation British jet engines.
The airframe might have been viable with later fan-jet engines.
 

taildragger

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The economic viability of the C-102 is an unknown because no airline gave it a try. The costs of acquisition and operation were pretty predictable but the revenue side of operating a jetliner in the early 50s was and is unknown. How would load factors and ticket prices have changed?
Just a few years later airlines stocked up on DC-7s and L-1649s then placed tiny initial orders for 707s and DC-8s (their operating economics probably weren't that far ahead of the C-102's), undoubtedly because of skepticism regarding jetliners' economic viability. It shortly became clear that it was possible to sell more tickets at higher prices on flights served by jets. That realization began a race to convert over to all-jet fleets and the last generation of prop-liners got early starts as cargo carriers.
There's no way of knowing if the same factors would have kicked in had the C-102 been introduced into service, but it seems likely.
 

Stargazer2006

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taildragger said:
The costs of acquisition and operation were pretty predictable but the revenue side of operating a jetliner in the early 50s was and is unknown.

Er... what about the De Havilland Comet?
 

MaxLegroom

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I've read that at various times, TWA, National and Eastern were interested in buying the Jetliner. Supposedly, Hughes was interested enough in the Jetliner to try to have it built under license by Convair in San Diego. Probably, it would have been a matter of a lot of them being sold for a short period of time (think by 1955), and it would have had to rapidly evolve or people would lose interest. The question of operating the Jetliner would have been how it would have worked on short to medium haul flights, I think, not really a replacement for Constellations and other long range airliners, but planes like the Convairliners and the Viscount that it more closely resembled in carrying capacity. You'd have to think whether the added speed would result in enough additional passenger seat miles to overcome the likely added expenses, or whether fare increases could be obtained, which would not have been as easy as it is today, due to the Civil Aeronautics Board.
 

taildragger

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Skyblazer said:
taildragger said:
The costs of acquisition and operation were pretty predictable but the revenue side of operating a jetliner in the early 50s was and is unknown.

Er... what about the De Havilland Comet?

Well , the DH Comet was a little bit different, wasn't it?
1. I believe that the Comet 1 was flown almost exclusively on international routes - an entirely different business than domestic, medium range travel, especially in the 50s.
2. The market appeal of the Comet was dampened by the crashes. I don't know that Avro showed the same disregard for fatigue or that the C-102 had any other fatal flaw.
To the extent that the DH Comet example is applicable, it refutes the statement that the C-102 was economically not viable. Before the grounding, DH had a full order book and a growing customer list, including at least a couple of US carriers.
 

hesham

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Re: Early Avro Canada C.102 Jetliner Studies

From the report; Arrow Countdown,


here is the early Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner drawings.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Re: Early Avro Canada C.102 Jetliner Studies

hesham said:
here is the early Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner drawings.

Certainly not.

The first image shows a very late configuration with swept wings and tail a la 707.

The second image shows the proposed interior for that project (left) and the brochure for the original, straight wing design (right), for comparison purposes.
 

blackkite

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Re: Early Avro Canada C.102 Jetliner Studies

Hi!
http://www.avromuseum.com/photos1.html
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5183.msg247568.html#msg247568


Thanks for the clue ! ;)
 

Triton

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blackkite said:
Hi!
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5183.msg247568.html#msg247568

Sorry about that. Couldn't imagine that the aircraft would be designated C.102 rather than C-102. Wikipedia designates the aircraft as C102.

"Avro Canada C102 Jetliner"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_C102_Jetliner
 

alertken

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ML/TD: UK in 1943 looked ahead to post-War civil, and could see little through the barrier of DC-3, DC-4, L-049. Superb. Cheap. But we had turbines.

Avro XXI 689 Tudor II/Merlin was funded 15/12/44, flew 10/3/46, by when Avro had numerous (propellor-)turbine schemes. Hawker Siddeley Group bought Victory A/c 1/12/1944 (Lancaster/York licensee) as Avro Canada: 1945, took a licence for Lincoln, then 4/46 for Tudor II for RCAF (TCA was wed to C-4M). C-102 was initiated from Tudor II with 2xRR AJ.65: TCA 9/4/46 gave a Letter of Intent (the first ever "order" for a civil turbine type - UK's funding for various Brabazon Committee Types was by Ministry, not by a market-driven Customer). 4xDerwent were substituted 10/47 (Avon did not then work: silly conspiracy theory has RR/UK blocking Avon/C-102 to favour Comet 2...which was not conceived until 1951, by when Avon did work, inseminated by ASM compressor data). TCA exited, on operating cost.

Ahistorically...TCA would have quit C-102 in 1948 when Tudors destroyed BSAAC . Best guesses of World total Medium Range demand were then in some scores. Malton sensibly attended to (to be 689) CF-100.
 

zanenobbs

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The International Resin Modellers Association has a kit for this! It is IRMA Kit No. 8 Avro Canada C102 Jetliner in 1/72. Here is the history: Articles 21 Avro Canada C201 Jetliner ( ), build Articles 22 Building the IRMA Kit No. 8 Avro Canaca C102 Jetliner ( ), and it can be ordered from the IRMA On-Line Store ( ). My apologies on delays in the build, I'm working on interior lighting and navigation lights using LED fiber optics to show the full interior and cockpit details.
 

hesham

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Also from the book; The Avro Canada C102 Jetliner
 

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zanenobbs

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Greetings All,

At this time I'm starting on the interior of my IRMA Kit No. 8 Avro Canada C102 Jetliner in 1/72 and I have the colors for the cockpit interior, however, for the passenger compartment, I know below the windows was green then wood above that, however, I cannot find any color photos or descriptions for the seat colors. Does anyone know or have sources on this?
 

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