Late '50s Avro Canada Projects

Apophenia

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A pair of unbuilt Avro Canada projects from Canadian Aircraft Since 1909 by K.M. Molson (ISBN: 0370300955).

First, a 1955 design for a four-engined bizjet with CF-100 overtones. [Edit: presumably the "Small High-Speed Jet Transport" mentioned in Jim Floyd's summary of Avro Canada feasibilty studies, 1954-1958.]

Second, a 1956 study for a four-engined jet airliner (looking rather like some of the early 4-jet "DC-9" studies). [Edit: this was a swept-wing development of the C.102 Jetliner.]

A 1959 SST study and early concepts for the C.102 Jetliner, I've posted separately.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5181.0.html
 

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Petrus

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The CF-100 took part in an USAF competition that led to their adopting the Canberra as a light-bomber/interdictor, which saw service with the USAF as the B-57.
Do you have any idea how the Canadian fighter was modified to perform in the air-to-ground role?

Piotr
 

Apophenia

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It is hard to envision, Piotr. The 'Lead Sled' was never used in the ground attack role by the RCAF (that was left to the Vampires, Sabres, then CF-104s).

With no bomb-bays and minimal load-carrying by comparison, I can't see how the CF-100 could hope to compete with the Canberra. On the other hand, there's lots of room for extra pylons on those huge, unswept wings.

BTW, there were plans for four-engined CF-100s although both were intended as high altitude interceptors with wingtip pod Bristol Orpheus added. These studies were unrelated to the business aircraft scheme.
 

Apophenia

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In a timeline, Avro Museum records Jim Floyd's list of Avro Canada project feasibilty studies completed 1954-1958 (see Page 50 of 80):
http://www.avromuseum.com/uploads/1/8/3/9/18390559/avro_timeline_sorted_by_date.pdf

- Family of Simple Interceptors
- Smaller Version of CF-105
- Subsonic Target Drone
- Small High-Speed Jet Transport [1955, Project 52 ??]
- Long-Range Jet Transport for TCA [1956, Project 25 ??]
-- Is 'Project 25' the 4-jet, swept-wing C102 development, above?
- Subsonic Jet Trainer
- Propjet DC-6B
- Air Cargo Study [Poss related to T.D.Earl's GE/STOL concept?]
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,16566.msg159609.html
- Monorail [1958]
- Supersonic Trans-Atlantic Transport [STAT] Study [1959]
- Ship-borne missile for Royal Canadian Navy
- VTOL Fighter Project for US Navy [TS-140 'X-Wing']
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6279.msg122718.html
- Report on how to get into the missile business
- Infantry anti-tank missile
- P-13 anti-missile missile [1957, intended for Arrow PS-2]
- Bolacopter Project
- Gyro Plane Family [leading to Avian 2/180 Gyroplane]
-- Presumably ref. to Floyd's tip jet-driven gyrodyne concept?
- SCIMP (Supersonic Cheap Interceptor Missile Project) [1958]
- Ballastic Drag Re-entry Vehicle [1958]
- War Games (overall defense studies)
- Anti-Boost-Glide Defence System
- Avro Orbiter (Arrow launched solid satellite)
- Space Threshold Vehicle [1958]
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9409.msg108032.html#msg108032

Anyone have any more information about any of these projects?
 

Bill Walker

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Not sure if it was related to the USAF competition, but Avro and the RCAF did test one CF-100 in a bombing role, with 4 underwing pylons each holding at least 1,000 pounds of conventional bombs. This was in 1953 and 1954, using a Mk. 2 partially brought up to Mk. 3 standards (18105).

Company illustrations of the VTOL proposal also showed under wing bombs.

Another CF-100 (18103) was used for tests with the US T-150 cannon in 1954 and 1955. This appears to have been only company trials, with very little RCAF participation. Also, the first Clunk, 18101, was tested (or maybe just displayed) at Wright-Patterson in November 1950.
 

Archibald

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Avro Orbiter (Arrow launched solid satellite)
I suppose this mean a satellite launched from an Avro Arrow via a solid-fuel rocket ?
 

Arjen

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Bill Walker said:
Not sure if it was related to the USAF competition, but Avro and the RCAF did test one CF-100 in a bombing role, with 4 underwing pylons each holding at least 1,000 pounds of conventional bombs. This was in 1953 and 1954, using a Mk. 2 partially brought up to Mk. 3 standards (18105).
Those tests were performed in 1954, three years after the USAF competition.
From another thread: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14505.msg144642.html#msg144642
From 'The Avro CF-100' by Larry Milberry, CANAV Books, 1981:
To determine the usefulness of the CF-100 as a ground attack aircraft, bomb trials were conducted in 1954 at Malton. Aircraft 18105 was modified as a Mk.3 aerodynamically, and 14 bomb-dropping trips were flown over the Lake Ontario range. In all, twenty-one 1000 lb bombs were dropped and twenty 100 lb practice bombs. Problems encountered included bombs fouling each other when released, but the pilot's comments were favourable as far as performance went:
"Bomb dropping was satisfactory under conditions tested. Change of trim at moment of bomb or bombs release was small or negligible."
Bombs had been dropped at speeds between 230 and 550 mph.
The CF-100 was not developed any further in the bomb carrying mode. This was explained later in an Avro memo relating to the proposed STOVL (Short Takeoff and Vertical landing) CF-100: "At 27,000/30,000 lb. gross the CF-100 Mk.4 strength factor is about 7g limit. Between 10/12g limit is recommended for ground attack planes... Low strength factors and the cost incurred to correct the situation was one reason why the CF-100 ground attack proposal in 1954 was not developed."
index.php

Bill Walker said:
Company illustrations of the VTOL proposal also showed under wing bombs.
No bombs, but missiles - from the same thread: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14505.msg144833.html#msg144833
index.php



The 4-engined clunk http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,14505.msg144836.html#msg144836:
index.php
 

shedofdread

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Could anyone enlighten me? What is a "bolacopter"? Something with blade-tip weights, perhaps? Searches turned up nothing...
 

Stargazer2006

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shedofdread said:
Could anyone enlighten me? What is a "bolacopter"? Something with blade-tip weights, perhaps? Searches turned up nothing...

Couldn't find a thing either... :-\ The blade-tip weights thing is a possibility but I wouldn't bet on it!

As for the STAT (Supersonic Trans-Atlantic Transport) project, we may have nothing at the moment, but let's keep in mind that:
  • This was a 1959 project.
  • Avro Canada folded in 1959.
  • Jim Floyd, Avro Canada's chief designer/vice-president/director of engineering, moved to Britain in 1959 to head Hawker's SST design effort, bringing with him 5 other engineers from the Arrow project.
In all likelihood, Hawker Siddeley's early SST efforts should therefore have some features in common with Avro Canada's STAT project.
 

Stargazer2006

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According to this other PDF file, the source for the list provided above by Apophenia is a 280-page book by Jim Floyd entitled THE AVRO CANADA C102 JETLINER and published by Boston Mills Press, Erin (Ont.) in 1986. (ISBN 0-919783-66-X.CIP).

This must be a very rare item I believe, and you can learn more about it in this short review by Alfred F. Greenwood:
http://www.umanitoba.ca/cm/cmarchive/vol15no4/revtheavro.html

It would seem that Apophenia himself posted pics from that book in the Jetliner thread... Do you have access to that book, Apophenia?
 

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hesham

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Excellent work my dear Apophenia,as usual.
 

lark

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Some of the projects mentioned in Apophenia's list are described
in Randall Whitcomb's book 'Cold War Tech War'- Apogee Books .Ontario,Canada.

There's also 'Arrow's Secrets' in Air Enthusiast N° 89- Sept/Oct 2000.
 

Apophenia

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Stargazer2006 said:
... Do you have access to that book, Apophenia?

Only as a library book Stéphane (I'll be at that library on 05 Sept if you want me to look up something specific).

Gyro Plane Family/Avian 2/180 Gyroplane: So, Jim Floyd's mid-'50s tip jet-driven gyrodyne concept is unrelated (and, possibly, unnamed).

On other unbuilt 1950s Avro Canada projects, I've also seen cryptic online mentions of "AVRO NATO V/STOL", "AVRO P-470 STOL", and "AVRO P-47B ADAC".

The 'P-470' ref is odd. I was under the impression that the thrust-augmentor P-450 was the Advanced Projects Group's last design. I'm assuming that 'P-47B' is a typo and that ADAC just stands for Avion à décollage et à atterrissage courts.
 

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My dear Apophenia,


I also heard about a V/STOL recce strike aircraft project for Avro Canada,anther
projects were given "RL" series.
 

Stargazer2006

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Apophenia said:
Only as a library book Stéphane (I'll be at that library on 05 Sept if you want me to look up something specific).

Well, yes, finding out more on the Bolacopter and the Gyro Plane family of designs that led to the Avian 2/180 would be a good start, since they are mentioned in the book. It would also be interesting to compare the Supersonic Trans-Atlantic Transport [STAT] Study with Hawker's early SST proposals. The thing is, I don't know if these are only mentioned in passing or if there is actually a photo or diagram to illustrate them. I should think that such a thick volume might have more than one-liners but I may be wrong.

Apophenia said:
Gyro Plane Family/Avian 2/180 Gyroplane: So, Jim Floyd's mid-'50s tip jet-driven gyrodyne concept is unrelated (and, possibly, unnamed).

I can't find a photo of that Jim Floyd gyrodyne concept you mention. Do you have a picture of it?

Apophenia said:
On other unbuilt 1950s Avro Canada projects, I've also seen cryptic online mentions of "AVRO NATO V/STOL", "AVRO P-470 STOL", and "AVRO P-47B ADAC".
The 'P-470' ref is odd. I was under the impression that the thrust-augmentor P-450 was the Advanced Projects Group's last design. I'm assuming that 'P-47B' is a typo and that ADAC just stands for Avion à décollage et à atterrissage courts.

The designations used by Avro Canada in general defy logic. The Avrocar was their Model 1 (but by no means their first design or product), the designations used for many of their projects were actually those of the customers' specifications (TS-140, WS-606A) and other projects have designations that seem to come from out of nowhere (Project Y, Project 1794, PV.704).
 

Apophenia

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Hesham: I'd like to hear more about those V/STOL designs! BTW, the 'RL' prefix was an RCAF code (followed by the 'last three' of the serial number).

Stéphane: Will do. So ... Bolacopter, Gyro Plane, STAT/HS proposals, and I'll have a look for any details on the other projects listed. Not hopeful on the P-470, though ;)

Agreed on Avro Canada designations. There seemed to have been no system at all. And it doesn't help when nonsense like 'MX-1794' and 'Weapons Project 606A' pops up, either!
 

hesham

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My dear Apophenia,


sorry no more details I know about V/STOL recce strike aircraft project,and I know
the "RL" was for serial number,but in an old Canadian site,many RL numbers were
allocated to unbuilt projects,unfortunately that site was broken now.
 

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RLwas the unit code for the RCAF Technical Detachment on site at Avro Canada, and was sometimes used in fuselage markings on the aircraft under control of this detachment. (RL-roundel-single letter prior to about 1951, later RL-roundel-last 3 of serial.) They would be the official owner of any RCAF aircraft used by Avro. This would include a lot of aircraft in for overhauls, modifications, or brief tests, including CF-100s, Mitchells and Dakotas. I suspect that these aircraft were all assigned an RL code, but it was not always painted during their brief visits to Malton.

This Detachment also briefly used unit code FB, as seen on early CF-100 prototypes.
 

Apophenia

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Thanks Bill. I suspected that you'd know the answer ;)
 

hesham

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Hi,


I wrote in a paper,all those aircraft and projects,this site was from 2005,by that
time,I hadn't Internet line in my house,so I went to a Cyber,and got them,but where
they are now ?.
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

AVRO CANADA Lunar Rover and Jetliner
http://globalnews.ca/news/427985/55-years-later-biggest-question-surrounding-avro-arrow-remains-what-if/

http://vipmedia.globalnews.ca/2013/03/global-news-pictures-002-e1364257164882.jpg

http://www.avroland.ca/al-otherprojects.html

Many greetings
 

hesham

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From the report; Arrow Scrapbook


what was this business jet aircraft project for Avro ?,or was it a real project ?.
 

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MaxLegroom

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Skyblazer said:
According to this other PDF file, the source for the list provided above by Apophenia is a 280-page book by Jim Floyd entitled THE AVRO CANADA C102 JETLINER and published by Boston Mills Press, Erin (Ont.) in 1986. (ISBN 0-919783-66-X.CIP).

This must be a very rare item I believe, and you can learn more about it in this short review by Alfred F. Greenwood:
http://www.umanitoba.ca/cm/cmarchive/vol15no4/revtheavro.html

It would seem that Apophenia himself posted pics from that book in the Jetliner thread... Do you have access to that book, Apophenia?
I've had an opportunity to read part of that book, I think. I'd gone looking for SST stuff at the NASA Langley research library, and as usual, my failures produced something of interest anyway.
 

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I don't suppose anyone has ever discovered what the 'Bolacopter' turned out to be, have they...?
 

hesham

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Hi,

here is Avro XC-100 fighter artist drawing.

http://archive.aviationweek.com/image/spread/19481108/9/2
 

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kitnut617

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Not sure if this is the correct place for this post, but can anyone direct me to a good 3-View of a CF-100 Mk.3 please
 

Apophenia

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hesham said:
here is Avro XC-100 fighter artist drawing.

As suggested by "artist drawing", this is rough concept art for the design revisions by Jim Frost in the mid-1947. The original CX.100 design had a more flat-sided fuselage. The circular-section fuselage was introduced by Frost at the mock-up stage.

Prior to the C.100, Avro Canada had produced three concepts to meet the RCAF's original, mid-1945 specification AIR 7-3 Issue 1 to provide a single-seat fighter. All three of these early 1946 fighter concepts by JH Millie had a strong Gloster influence.

Two of the AIR 7-3 Issue 1 designs resembled the Gloster E.1/44. These were powered by single engines - probably the Turbo Research TR.3. The third concept resembled the later-model Gloster Meteors. The smaller Turbo Research TR.4 Chinook engine seems to have been designed specifically for this fighter concept.
 

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I'm not sure if anyone has come across this 1956 Avro Canada final report of the pre "Avrocar" Avro Project 704/USAF Project 1794 signed off by Jim Frost found at the National Archives. Hope it is of interest to someone. Admittedly a lot of pages are devoted to wind tunnel test rig but theres some good detail.... Ive included a few pics. Hope you Enjoy..

Here's the NARA link:
https://research.archives.gov/id/6920770

If it helps with the cryptic Canadian Arvo designation system then at least the above document might fill in at least one blank. pic Avro 704-2 is the intermediate Y2 design, whilst pic Avro 704-4 is the incredibly optimistic Mach 3 (and then some more) Project 704 design developed from the P.V.704. I've since found out that this doc has been around for a while, but this version is higher resolution and colour scanned.
 

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blackkite

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Hi!

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1fbq9fo0mfacutnado2ediqjs4&topic=1385.0;all

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=7eWUzlBMAc0C&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=avro+canada+cf-103&source=bl&ots=kaASjtJxuv&sig=JVESkYPd52Ew6Qg4nw1Kec9F2No&hl=ja&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz0veqkoDTAhWJabwKHccRBt04FBDoAQg-MAU#v=onepage&q=avro%20canada%20cf-103&f=false
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
here is Avro XC-100 fighter artist drawing.

http://archive.aviationweek.com/image/spread/19481108/9/2

From Ailes 1/1949.
 

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riggerrob

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During that era, AVRO was also involved in a few non-aviation projects, most notably armoured personnel carriers and hydrofoils.
AVRO’s APC project produced 4 APCs and one self-propelled howitzer.
Studies for a fully-tracked, fully-roofed APC started in 1950. Around 1954, Leyland of Canada got a contract to design what became the Bobcat APC. Leyland was bought by Canadian Car and Foundry which was in turn bought by expansionist AVRO. They eventually built a mild-steel prototype, 3 armoured pre-production. APCs and a self-propelled howitzer.
The SP howitzer carried a 105 mm howitzer (American pattern already in service in Canada) but the chassis was far too light for the gun. “Ever time it fired, it landed in a different grid square!” The driver was dry, but gunners still worked in the rain!

After 9 years of development, the Bobcat APC was cramped, noisy, difficult to exit and suffered numerous broken tracks. Whoever designed the Bobcat’s rear door put the poor bloody infantry “priority last.” By 1962, Bobcat had been in devolpment for 9 years but was still a long way from ready for production. In July 1963, the Canadian Army cancelled the Bobcat contract and (November 1963) ordered a large fleet of M113s from Food Machinery and Chemical Corporation.
One Bobcat APC prototype remains at CFB Borden.
 

Archibald

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Avro Orbiter (Arrow launched solid satellite)
I suppose this mean a satellite launched from an Avro Arrow via a solid-fuel rocket ?

Answering my own question, many years later (LMAO)

The "Arrows to the Moon" book briefly mentions this project as "a satellite launch capability for the Arrow" by Mario Pesando. See the attached excerpt.

The irony of course was that the CF-105, of all days, was rolled out on October 4, 1957... and was instantly eclipsed by the Sputnik scare - if not sheer hysteria.

The Arrow would have made an interesting mothership for an air-launched, solid-fuel booster. For example, the upper stage of a SCOUT - minus the Algol stage 1.
It had a tall undercarriage, a huge missile bay, and an enormous speed-height envelope.
Out of 9000 m/s to Earth orbit it could have substracted 1800 m/s - if the rocket was dropped at 50 000 feet, mach 2, and 30 degree AoA.

Using Scout three upper stages payload would have been approximatively 100 kg.
 

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riggerrob

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Stargazer2006 said:
... Do you have access to that book, Apophenia?

Only as a library book Stéphane (I'll be at that library on 05 Sept if you want me to look up something specific).

Gyro Plane Family/Avian 2/180 Gyroplane: So, Jim Floyd's mid-'50s tip jet-driven gyrodyne concept is unrelated (and, possibly, unnamed).

On other unbuilt 1950s Avro Canada projects, I've also seen cryptic online mentions of "AVRO NATO V/STOL", "AVRO P-470 STOL", and "AVRO P-47B ADAC".

The 'P-470' ref is odd. I was under the impression that the thrust-augmentor P-450 was the Advanced Projects Group's last design. I'm assuming that 'P-47B' is a typo and that ADAC just stands for Avion à décollage et à atterrissage courts.

I recently found two copies of Jim Floyd's Jetliner book in a used bookstore and brought one home.
There were also two or three books about the Avro Arrow on the same shelf.

Renaissance Books,
712B Twelfth Street,
New Westminster, B.C.
V3M 4J6
604-526-4566
www.renaissancebookstore.com
 

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A bit out of the the late 50s period but please forgive me.

Avro Aircraft looked at a number of aircraft during the spring and summer of 1959. One of them was apparently a small, single-engine, two-seat American-designed gyroplane, the Umbaugh U-18. These discussions went nowhere

In mid-1961, Avro Aircraft signed a cooperation agreement with a division of Borg-Warner, an American corporation active in various sectors. They pooled their knowledge in the field of air cushion vehicles, landing craft and amphibious vehicles. The two companies soon submitted to the U.S. Navy's Office of Naval Research a project for an amphibious air cushion vehicle capable of transporting materiel and / or troops. These efforts went nowhere.

In the spring of 1962, rumors circulated that Avro Aircraft was preparing feasibility studies for a twin-jet version of an already existing four-engine business aircraft, the McDonnell Model 220. It hoped to get an order from the Royal Canadian Air Force. Again, these efforts went nowhere. Tested in February 1959, the Model 220 did not go beyond the prototype stage.

Avro Aircraft may also have completed prototypes of a sports car and of a large amphibious utility vehicle. These two programs went nowhere.
 

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I recommend the book, Requiem for a Giant by Palmiro Campagna. Canada was caught between Britain and the United States and the Russians. As it successfully flew the Jetliner a decade before similar aircraft produced by the Americans, it became a satellite of the US in regards to North American defense from Russian bombers and later, ICBMs. Avro had capable designers that were in the process of developing a national defense and Avro, and the Canadian expanse, was an ideal place to test and evaluate projects from Britain and the US. It was thought that the US would fund and then buy certain articles. In the end, the US held all the cards and former Avro employees ended up with American aircraft manufacturers and NASA. This after a 'stop work immediately' order was issued in 1959 without previous discussion.
 

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