Interbellum and WW2 period (1918-1945) experimental and small-known artillery

[Scott Kenny]

Didn't realize that they made a 15cm unit in addition to the 75mm and 105mm.

 

[Charlie_Landships]

Hrm. Yes, I'm 99% sure that the dude in the hat is an American (mom's Dad was issued that hat...)

That was an experimental lashup using the Holt 55-1 tractor with an 8inch howitzer barrel with wooden planks. The idea was to determine whether the tractor chassis could withstand the recoil forces from the howitzer - it did - and lead to the development of the Holt Mark 1 Gun Motor Carriage wiht 8inch howitzer, the Mark II with 155mm GPF gun and Mark III with 240mm howitzer.
There's more information on Landships II (landships.info)

 

[Deleted member 69670]

Soviet experimental 203 mm M-33 howitzer and 152 mm M-23 gun, in Permian artillery plant. Maybe, WW2 period, or early post-war (1945-1955).View attachment 784644
View attachment 784645
Looks like a ML-20 152 mm gun-howitzer carriage. I know about different 152 mm guns with Br-2 ballistics (49 kg, 880 mps) on ML-20 carriage (original ballistic - 43.56 kg, 670 mps), and heard about suggestions - 203 mm B-4 howitzer (100 kg, 607 mps) and 280 mm Br-5 mortar* (200/245.7/286 kg, 420/356/290 mps) ballistics on ML-20 carriage. Maybe, 203 mm M-33 was realisation of B-4 ballistics on ML-20 carriage. And I think there must have been a 280mm mortar of a similar type.

thats friggen sick. people say the Germans were obsessed with gigantomania but i think theyre s*** wrong lol i say it was the soviets with their mega sized towed artillery and the US with its massive superbombers before there was any risk of a war ( B19..etc) lol

but anyway those are cool, i love learning about new soviet artillery esp the hodge podge stuff they made such as the 152.4mm D-1 (M-10 type barrel on M30 type carriage)or the 122mm D-2 ( A19 type barrel on M30 type carriage)
do you have any more pics like these ones you posted i am especially interested in the probable "280mm mortar of Br-5 ballistics on the 52-L-504A ( ML20/ A-19) carriage"
that would be one hell of a "scheunentor" lol. i bet in typical cult of personality form the commis wouldve nammed it like "Stalinskiy Botinok" lol

 

[Charlie_Landships]

The 203mm B-4, 152mm Br-2 and 280mm Br-5 originally shared a tracked carriage (the Br-2 had equilibrator cylinders). The tracked carriage idea originally was a US development for the 1918 7inch gun and later the 155mm M-1 (GPF) gun. Notionally tracked carriages could be towed over soft ground but in reality the greater weight of the tracks and the power required to get the tracks moving in mud meant it didn't turn out as expected. The images look, to me, like experimental designs to replace the tracked carriages with wheeled carriages.
As it turned out the B-4 and the few Br-5s built stayed on tracked carriages but the Br-2 guns were mounted on wheeled carriages after WW2 until they were taken out of service in the 1960s(?).
The 280mm Br-5 was a modified Schneider 280mm which the Russians fielded in WW1 - the original siege gun was designed to broken down into sub-units for transport so it wasn't too difficult to convert to a new carriage.

 

[Deleted member 69670]

The 203mm B-4, 152mm Br-2 and 280mm Br-5 originally shared a tracked carriage (the Br-2 had equilibrator cylinders). The tracked carriage idea originally was a US development for the 1918 7inch gun and later the 155mm M-1 (GPF) gun. Notionally tracked carriages could be towed over soft ground but in reality the greater weight of the tracks and the power required to get the tracks moving in mud meant it didn't turn out as expected. The images look, to me, like experimental designs to replace the tracked carriages with wheeled carriages.
As it turned out the B-4 and the few Br-5s built stayed on tracked carriages but the Br-2 guns were mounted on wheeled carriages after WW2 until they were taken out of service in the 1960s(?).
The 280mm Br-5 was a modified Schneider 280mm which the Russians fielded in WW1 - the original siege gun was designed to broken down into sub-units for transport so it wasn't too difficult to convert to a new carriage.

not entirely true
yes you are 100% correct about the Tracked undercarriage but youre incorrect about the B-4 and few Br-5s built staying on tracks

they were all modernized and most of them placed on wheels
Br-2 became Br-2M
B-4 became B-4M
Br-5 became Br-5M

also while the Imperial Russias Putilov plant came to an agreement with the French manufacturer Schneider to priduce several artillery types one of which was ta 279.4mm siege howitzer with a range of 6km to replace aging weapons of similar calibers

this became the Schneider "Mortier de 280 TR Modele 1914 Schneider"

this Mortar became an inspiration and was the father of multiple upgrades culminating in the 280mm Br-5 Siege howitzer
but the Schneider Mortar was an L/12 barrel
the Barrikady was an L/17 Barrel

the Br-5 no doubt could fire all the ammo the 280 TR could fire

 

[Charlie_Landships]

not entirely true
yes you are 100% correct about the Tracked undercarriage but youre incorrect about the B-4 and few Br-5s built staying on tracks

they were all modernized and most of them placed on wheels
Br-2 became Br-2M
B-4 became B-4M
Br-5 became Br-5M

also while the Imperial Russias Putilov plant came to an agreement with the French manufacturer Schneider to priduce several artillery types one of which was ta 279.4mm siege howitzer with a range of 6km to replace aging weapons of similar calibers

this became the Schneider "Mortier de 280 TR Modele 1914 Schneider"

this Mortar became an inspiration and was the father of multiple upgrades culminating in the 280mm Br-5 Siege howitzer
but the Schneider Mortar was an L/12 barrel
the Barrikady was an L/17 Barrel

the Br-5 no doubt could fire all the ammo the 280 TR could fire

Thanks for the correction

The Schneider 279.4mm Mortier was produced for the Russians first. The first prototype was built at Schneider's Le Havre plant in 1912, tested then sent to Russia. After extensive trials the Russians accepted it although there were some reservations about the Mortier's ability to penetrate fortifications. The initial Russian order was for 16 howitzers with delivery in 1915 with a total of 26 howitzers delivered to the Russian Army by 1917. The French Army expressed interest then dithered until late late 1913 when they ordered 18 howitzers - a total of 126 was delivered during WW1. The US Army adopted a modified 280mm howitzer in 1918 in 240mm calibre - these remained in service until WW2 - they were never popular since the amount of work required to assemble the howitzers was thought excessive. The 280mm howitzers were deployed in WW2 by both Russia and France - a number were captured by the Germans and deployed against the Russians. The WW2 action the 280mm howitzers were notably employed on was the destruction of the Italian fortress of Chaberton on the French-Italian frontier. The only surviving part of the 280mm howitzer is a Putilov built barrel and its transport vehicle at the Military Musuem in Warsaw.

 

[Deleted member 69670]

Thanks for the correction

The Schneider 279.4mm Mortier was produced for the Russians first. The first prototype was built at Schneider's Le Havre plant in 1912, tested then sent to Russia. After extensive trials the Russians accepted it although there were some reservations about the Mortier's ability to penetrate fortifications. The initial Russian order was for 16 howitzers with delivery in 1915 with a total of 26 howitzers delivered to the Russian Army by 1917. The French Army expressed interest then dithered until late late 1913 when they ordered 18 howitzers - a total of 126 was delivered during WW1. The US Army adopted a modified 280mm howitzer in 1918 in 240mm calibre - these remained in service until WW2 - they were never popular since the amount of work required to assemble the howitzers was thought excessive. The 280mm howitzers were deployed in WW2 by both Russia and France - a number were captured by the Germans and deployed against the Russians. The WW2 action the 280mm howitzers were notably employed on was the destruction of the Italian fortress of Chaberton on the French-Italian frontier. The only surviving part of the 280mm howitzer is a Putilov built barrel and its transport vehicle at the Military Musuem in Warsaw.

Personally I find it quite sad that all these war machines arent preserved today in at least 1 specimin. i mean aqlot of the advanced stuff made by the Japanese and Germans was outright destroyed by the all-lies as if they were hiding something as there is no other reason to destroy such things

 

[Charlie_Landships]

I should have checked - there is a single surviving 240mm Howitzer Model 1918. This was the Schneider 280mm with a longer reduced calibre barrel. The single example is at the US Army Artillery Museum, Fort Sill, Oklahoma.

 

[Deleted member 69670]

I should have checked - there is a single surviving 240mm Howitzer Model 1918. This was the Schneider 280mm with a longer reduced calibre barrel. The single example is at the US Army Artillery Museum, Fort Sill, Oklahoma.

what is funny is how the soviets are the ones who saved a vast majority of their prototypes. at least their AFV Ob'Yekts. idk about the artillery. and i really dont think they saved many of their experimental planes of the Interwar/WW2 period like the Polikarpov I-180/185/190/195..etc BUT thats a different topic


I wish there was any more images of these prototypical Soviet artillery pieces like for instance the
203mm B4 with muzzle brake
152.4mm B-30
180mm Br-21
152.4mm Br-19
162/100mm Br-2 variant
152/107mm Br-2 Variant
the improved T-117 or M-50 carriages for Br-2/B-4/Br5
152.4mm B-10-2-30
152.4mm B-10
152.4mm Br-2 with L/55 barrel

I bet there is a full comprehensive GRAU list, GAU list, Ob'Yekt list, Istrebitel list, Barrikady "Br" list, Bolsheivik plant "B" list, list of "S" guns and list of the BL guns as well
BL1- BL-6= ??
BL7= 152.4mm gun on 52-L-504A carriage
BL8= 152.4mm used in ISU-152-1 (Ob-246)
BL9= 122mm used in ISU-122-1 ( Ob-243)
BL10= 152.4mm used in ISU-152-2 ( Ob-247)
BL11=- BL-99???

EDIT;
BL-13 is/ was the long barreled 122mm tank gun fitted to the Ob'yekt 244 which was also the testbed for the roadwheels of the abortive Ob'yekt 252 ( it had 5 big IS-6 wheels and one regular IS-2 wheel due to the hull being too short for the full 6, it also had the turret of an KV-122 installed at one point before being mounted as a memorial in St.Petersberg )

 

[Deleted member 69670]

S-69 130mm Gun
1945/47 gun designed by NII-58 to replace the 122mm A-19 gun family ( perhaps a predecessor to the 130mm M-46 of 1957 by the Motovilikha Plant)

built in typical soviet/ Russian fashion of Duplexes or Triplexes (multiple guns/ howitzers/ mortars or a sharded carriage i.e. think the Br-2/ B-4/ Br-5 family triplex or the A-19/ ML-20 family, D-20/ D-74 or M-46/ M-47 family duplexes ) in this case it was built in a duplex with an associated 152.4mm S-69-1 Gun/Howitzer

to date i have had little luck finding any pictures of the 152.4mm S-69-1 partner piece or the design of the self-propelled variant of the 130mm S-69 made in 1947.

if anyone hasd pics of these it would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!

 

[Deleted member 69670]

107mm D-46 or 107mm M-75
107mm of the 52- L-504A carriage
confusions comes from the following Russian sources who have pics labeled as these are but never mention a 107mm D-46 ( i believe D-46 is a 100mm tank gun trialed in the Ob'yekt 416)
tankarchives.com
DZEN.ru
and
Alternathistory.ru

***I HABITUALLY DUBIOUS OF ANYTHING ON THE TANKARCHIVES SITE AS ITS OWNER OR CHIEF CONTRIBUTOR YURI PASHLOK TENDS TO PROMOTE PROPAGANDA AS "FACT" EVEN WITH CLAIMS OF THE "ISU-122 AND ISU-152S ABILITY TO TAKE OUT GERMANYS HEAVIES WHEN CAREFUL RESEARCH SHOWS NEITHER WERE REALLY CAPABLE OF THE TAST AS BOTH HAD TO BE WELL WITH THE LETHAT KILLING RANGE OF THE GUNS OF TIGER, PANTHER OR TIGER 2 HELL AT THE RANGE THEY WERE REQUIRED TO ENSURE AN ACCURATE HIT ( 500M FOR 152 AND 750M FOR 122) THE Pz.IV Ausf. F/G/H/J COULD KNOCK THEM OUT EFFORTLESSLY) besides IF THE 122/152 were capable of killing the German "Zoo" then there would never be any reason for the 107mm, 130mm guns as well as the "ISUs of high power" which had freakishly long guns on then in order to gain sufficient muzzle velocity to take out said ZOO
IN FACT ANYTHING FROM SOVIET RECORDS/ ARCHIVES SHOULD BE TAKEN WITH SKEPTICISM AS THEY LIE ABOUT EVERYTHING FROM PEOPLE KILLED IN WW2 ( CLAIM 22+ MILLION IN WAR BUT THE GERMANS AND ITALINS ONLY ACCOUNT FOR AROUND 9 MIL AND THE SOVIET GULAGS MURDERD AREOUN 14 MILLION ) TO HOW MANY NUKES THEY HAD OR HOW GOOD THEIR SOLDIERS/ EQUIPMENT IS ( FACT IS THE CURRENT WAR PROVES THEYRE STILL PULLING THE SAME B.S)

sorry for the rant but being told soviets were honest is irritating especially due to the "iron curtain" which literally disproves the honesty/ truth components

 

[Deleted member 69670]

122mm D-2
UZTM plant used a D prefix for its guns
now it gets confusing but is simple as most of the double digit designators are from a contraction of the guns/ mounts numbers the most famous of which is the 122mm D25T of the IS-2- T-10 or D25S of ISI-122-2
which is;
the barrel of the 122mm D-2 towed gun ( Trialed not accepted)
the cradle/ mount of the 85mm D-5T/ D-5S gun of T-34/85 and SU-85 fame
thus it becomes D-25

now for years the D-2 was illusive at lest in pictoral forms in the west but it was along the same concept of the 152.4mm D-1 which was a barrel of "M-10 ballistics" on the carriage of the 122mm M-30 howitzer ( 122mm D-2 would've been the "lighter companion" of the 122mm A-19 just as the 152.4mm D-1 was the lighter companion to the 152.4mm ML-20)

here is an ending excerpt from the alternathistory.ru site

"Of the four guns, one prototype equipped with a sliding breech (barrel #7, installed during modernization) has survived to this day. In the 1990s, this gun, along with some other historical systems in storage, was transported to Kazakhstan. This happened as part of the agreement on the reduction of conventional weapons. Anything with a caliber of less than 100 mm was sent to Poklonka. It's insane, but yes, such things happened. So, you can see the experimental prototype of the heavy anti-tank gun near Astana. Incidentally, its counterpart, the 122 mm S-4 gun, is also stationed there. As you can see, the Soviet Pak 43 never came to fruition, which may be for the better. Still, 4.5 tons is a lot for an anti-tank gun. And separate aiming is not a plus for an anti-tank gun."

link= https://dzen.ru/a/aGJn8APfxxvM3PYz

P.S. does anyone have pics of the 122mm S-4 gun mentioned as well as its 152.4mm companion piece the S-3??

 

[Deleted member 69670]

152.4mm BL-7

towed companion to the 152.4mm BL-8 of the ISU-152-1 ( Ob'yekt 246)

 

[Bottleship]

do you have any more pics like these ones you posted

152 mm D-4 gun - Br-2 ballistics with German-style muzzle device, on ML-20 carriage, ~10.3 ton:


122 mm S-4 gun - A-19 ballistics on BS-3 carriage:

 

[Bottleship]

Some links appeared in the neighboring topics, I will perhaps provide some images from there.

British WW2 experimental 9.2 inch howitzer:

 

[Bottleship]

German guns:
15 cm infanteriegeschutz with large muzzle device, 425 kg, 25 kg shell, 237 mps, 4.2 kg range:


15 cm Kanone L/36,5 barrel, 2900 kg, 39.14 kg shell, 675 mps:


And two plans of 15 cm short howitzer (looks like a Sturmpanzer IV / "Brummbär" gun), 870 kg, 43 kg, 320 mps

 

[Bottleship]

15 cm sFH 40 howitzer barrel, 2090 kg, 43.5 kg, 610 mps

 

[Bottleship]

12.8 cm BordFlak L/48 barrel, 3100 kg, 28.3 kg, 830 mps:

There is also a sketch of a 12.8 cm L/41 gun on a carriage from a 15 cm sFH 18, with ~2050 kg (?) barrel, 28.3 kg shell and muzzle velocity 760 mps (German analog of Soviet 122 mm A-19 with 26 kg shell and 800 mps?)

 

[Bottleship]

15 cm StuK L/63 barrel - 7350 kg, 45 kg shell, 1040 mps.

 

[Bottleship]

15 cm Gerät 60 (Flak gun) barrel - 15 500 kg, 42 kg shell, 1220 mps

 

[Bottleship]

10,5 cm LeFH 43 projects:

 

[Capitan Print]

what is funny is how the soviets are the ones who saved a vast majority of their prototypes. at least their AFV Ob'Yekts. idk about the artillery. and i really dont think they saved many of their experimental planes of the Interwar/WW2 period like the Polikarpov I-180/185/190/195..etc BUT thats a different topic


I wish there was any more images of these prototypical Soviet artillery pieces like for instance the
203mm B4 with muzzle brake
152.4mm B-30
180mm Br-21
152.4mm Br-19
162/100mm Br-2 variant
152/107mm Br-2 Variant
the improved T-117 or M-50 carriages for Br-2/B-4/Br5
152.4mm B-10-2-30
152.4mm B-10
152.4mm Br-2 with L/55 barrel

I bet there is a full comprehensive GRAU list, GAU list, Ob'Yekt list, Istrebitel list, Barrikady "Br" list, Bolsheivik plant "B" list, list of "S" guns and list of the BL guns as well
BL1- BL-6= ??
BL7= 152.4mm gun on 52-L-504A carriage
BL8= 152.4mm used in ISU-152-1 (Ob-246)
BL9= 122mm used in ISU-122-1 ( Ob-243)
BL10= 152.4mm used in ISU-152-2 ( Ob-247)
BL11=- BL-99???

EDIT;
BL-13 is/ was the long barreled 122mm tank gun fitted to the Ob'yekt 244 which was also the testbed for the roadwheels of the abortive Ob'yekt 252 ( it had 5 big IS-6 wheels and one regular IS-2 wheel due to the hull being too short for the full 6, it also had the turret of an KV-122 installed at one point before being mounted as a memorial in St.Petersberg )

Do you have "M", "ML", "LP" & "MZ" lists of the Motovilikha (Perm) plant? I have it on russian.

 

[Capitan Print]

Hi everybody!
In russian book "The material part of artillery" of the year 1939 there is a scheme of 305-mm Bofors railway gun (p. 107, Fig. 56).
On the next page we have some specifications of the gun:
Caliber, mm 305
Weight of shell, kg 385
Muzzle velocity, m/sec 875
Length, m n/d
Elevation, grad. 0...+50
Traverse, grad. 360
Mass of the mount, kg 199000

Maybe, someone knows anything more about this gun project.

 

[Bottleship]

Soviet 1937 book, "Modern artillery", by Kirillov-Gubetsky, in Russian. This book contains some interesting information about the Interbellum guns, prototypes, and small-scale production versions, both in Europe and the United States—from light infantry systems to super-heavy siege and railway guns, from page 64 to 149. There are illustrations at the end of the book, from 149 to 198; on pages 194-197, the captions are mixed up. The data on the First World War is quite strange, as in many other Soviet books.

 

[Capitan Print]

Soviet 1937 book, "Modern artillery", by Kirillov-Gubetsky, in Russian. This book contains some interesting information about the Interbellum guns, prototypes, and small-scale production versions, both in Europe and the United States—from light infantry systems to super-heavy siege and railway guns, from page 64 to 149. There are illustrations at the end of the book, from 149 to 198; on pages 194-197, the captions are mixed up. The data on the First World War is quite strange, as in many other Soviet books.

Thank you very much for your answer!
But Kirillov-Gubetsky didn't write anything about Bofors 305-mm railroad gun, as well on Bofors 220-mm & 240-mm ones, which are mentioned in the corresponding table.
It seems to me, the Bofors company itself didn't know about its projects of this kind!
Or were they purely promotional offers?
At least for some reason, the Swedes themselves do not recall such railway mountings at all, although the history of Bofors artillery production seems to be well studied in Sweden itself.