Indien Panzer from DB-Porsche

[Petrus]

In a German forum (http://www.network54.com/Forum/240281/message/1090833080/) I have just found a very intersting drawing showing what is allegedly a tank designed in Germany by Daimler-Benz/Porsche in the mid-1950s for India.

Here is the drawing:

Has anybody here ever heard of such a design? If so, could you tell what its specifications were to be (dimensions, weights, armament and so on)?

Best regards,
Piotr

 

[smurf]

Yes I've seen it before, but never such a good drawing. Thanks for that.
I think I have some data, but it may take a while to find it.

 

[smurf]

Not so long as I thought. Brief details (and your drawing on a mid-grey background) in Spielberger's Waffensystem Leopard 1 and 2. There is a small artist's impression in which the road wheels are fully visible, no return rollers. Looks a bit like a T-54 with very long gun.
Very much a joint effort. Porsche for overall design; Daimler-Benz MB837A 8-cyl diesel; Zahnradfabrik AG of Friedrichshafen for track etc; Ruhrstahl for turret and gun. Production in India by TATA was intended. Indian optics, sights.
Date 1954-55
Intended to meet an Indian need for a 36-39 ton tank, the German submission would probably have been around 40 tons. Power to weight 16.7 hp/ton so around 670 hp; top speed 50km/h, 90mm gun. Armour 90mm, up to 130mm turret face, cast steel.

I've a larger artist's impression somewhere, probably as a photocopy, but I don't think I can do better than this. The project fell through, with nothing built. The Indians eventually went for the Vickers MBT, production beginning in 1964.

 

[Petrus]

This what I've found at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_1:

Die Wiederbewaffnung der Bundesrepublik am 5. Mai 1955 führte auch zur Erstausstattung der Bundeswehr mit amerikanischen und britischen Panzerfahrzeugen. Die deutsche Rüstungsindustrie war zu dieser Zeit nicht in der Lage an die Panzerentwicklung anzuschließen. Jedoch versuchten Daimler-Benz mit Unterstützung ausländischer Hersteller die Entwicklungslücke zu schließen. Gemeinsam mit der Porsche KG, ZF Friedrichshafen, Ruhrstahl AG und der indischen Firma TATA versuchte man für Indien einen Kampfpanzer zu entwickeln. Dieses Projekt scheiterte.

Translation by Google Language Tools:

The rearmament of the Federal Republic to 5. May 1955 led also to the original allocation of equipment of the German Federal Armed Forces with American and British armoured vehicles. The German armaments industry was not to be attached at this time in a the position to the tank development. However tried Daimler Benz with support of foreign manufacturers the development gap to close. Together with the Porsche kg, ZF Friedrichshafen, Ruhr steel AG and the Indian company TATA one tried to develop a battle tank for India. This project failed.

By the way, could you please post here the picture (artist's impression) that you've mentioned? I think it would be very interesting as well.

Piotr

 

[smurf]

artist's impression

 

[Petrus]

Thank you.

Look at the machine-gun in the rear of the turret. Very strange feature, known from the Soviet KV-1 heavy tank, but never used in any of the German tank designs. Perhaps the Indians requested such a machine-gun?

Piotr

 

[Petrus]

A strange idea has just come to my mind...

Here is a picture in which there is a mock-up of a tank designed in the late 1950s in Switzerland and designated the K+W 30. It was a predecessor to their Pz 61/68 tank series.

Do you see that striking resemlance between the Indien Panzer and that Swiss project? Perhaps there was some kind of proliferation of ideas between German designers and their Swiss counterparts?

Piotr

 

[smurf]

Have you any more details of this Swiss tank? I thought the earliest Pz61 series had a UK 20lber gun?

 

[smurf]

I should look things up before I post!
The tank I was thinking of was the Pz58. Its second prototype had the 20pdr. The first, and a pre-production batch of I think 12, had the Swiss 90mm A/T gun, but production Pz61 had British 105mm.
All these had 6 roadwheels, so any more you have on the KW 30 would be very interesting. It does look to have the Swiss 90mm gun. If the '30' is the weight it is quite light, and in line with the original (unfulfilled) aims of the Leopard/AMX30 programme.

 

[Petrus]

All I know about the KW30 is that work on the design started in 1951 and the tank weight was to be around 30 tonnes. From the KW30 evolved the Pz58 that was build in 1957 in 10 examples.

I suppose that the tank was to be armed with 90mm Swiss designed gun. Eventually the Swiss choose the British 105 mm in their Pz61.

Piotr

 

[smurf]

Crow and Icks Encyclopedia of Tanks says for KW30 only
that it was the prototype for the Pz58
KW30-I 1956, perforated road wheels, 83.4mm gun
KW30-II dished road wheels. (Doesn't say how many)
83.4mm is the UK 20pdr, so Piotr's picture is presumably KW30-II, and with the 90mm Swiss gun.

 

[Petrus]

At http://www.armeemuseum.ch/uploads/media/Entwicklung_Schweizer_Panzer_01.pdf you'll find a document from which came the photo of the KW30 mock-up.

In the document there is one sentence about the KW30.

Best regards,
Piotr

 

[smurf]

In the document there is one sentence about the KW30.

but lots of sentences about the Pz68, even if they are in German, which will make them slow for me to read. This is a very interesting and useful article. Thanks, Piotr.

 

[TinWing]

Perhaps there was some kind of proliferation of ideas between German designers and their Swiss counterparts?

After the war, a number of German engineers established themselves in Switzerland. Even the group that designed the French ATAR axial flow jet engine was initially based in Switzerland.

 

[smurf]

For the record, in Petrus' link there is also a photo of the Pz 58, the second prototype with British 20pdr gun.

 

[Petrus]

After two years since we discussed here the Porsche tank project for India I have just found another drawing of it. The picture comes from "Leopard 2 sein Werden und seine Leistung" by Paul-Werner Krapke.

Best regards,
Piotr

 

[JohnR]

Presumably this is the project that went up against the Vickers Mk1/Vijayanta?

 

[Petrus]

The 'Indienpanzer' competed with the British design, which the Indians eventually choose. Interestingly the Vickers tank was built entirely from welded rolled steel plates. According to some sources this feature was seen as an advantage by the Indian army, who wanted the tank to be licence-built in the country, for - as R.M. Ogorkiewicz in his "Vickers Battle Tank" brochure (AFV Weapons Profile No 45) says - cast armour requires special foundry facilities, which were not available in India at the time the Vickers tank was developed. The Porsche design, on the contrary, had cast turret and much of the hull, so to buid it in India might have been considered not impossible but surely quite difficult and expensive. Perhaps this is why India rejected the German project.

Best regards,
Piotr

 

[avatar]

Well,
90 tanks were delivered straight from Britain. and domestically produced content increased by and by.

Part of the deal was the setting up of the heavy vehicles factory at Avadi, which now produces India's MBTs.

TOT would very much have been part of either deal.

I think some geopolitical considerations may have been at play , because at that time a lot of India's money was still stuck with the bank of england. So these deals were a way of Britain paying of that debt.

There used to be an India stores department in london even in the 60s..

 

[Hood]

A new article on the Indien Panzer at Tanks Encyclopedia: http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar-westgermany-indien-panzer/

Also makes reference to some other, earlier, Porsche AG tank studies:
B-PS 100, a 36-tonne turreted tank, armed with a 90 mm gun with loading assistance and a crew of 3.
B-PS 101 Ausf. A, a 36-tonne assault gun, armed with an autoloading 88 mm gun, and a crew of 3.
B-PS 101 Ausf. B, a 36-tonne turreted tank, armed with a 55 mm quick-firing gun, and a crew of 3.
B-PS 102, a 39.5-tonne turreted tank, armed with a 90 mm gun, and a crew of 4.

 

[blockhaj]

A strange idea has just come to my mind...

Here is a picture in which there is a mock-up of a tank designed in the late 1950s in Switzerland and designated the K+W 30. It was a predecessor to their Pz 61/68 tank series.

Do you see that striking resemlance between the Indien Panzer and that Swiss project? Perhaps there was some kind of proliferation of ideas between German designers and their Swiss counterparts?

Piotr

Sorry for the 16 year later question, but do u remember were u got this image from?
(i asked too quickly, found the link, however its broken ;_; )

 

[blockhaj]

Thank god for internet archive.

 

[blockhaj]

Crow and Icks Encyclopedia of Tanks says for KW30 only
that it was the prototype for the Pz58
KW30-I 1956, perforated road wheels, 83.4mm gun
KW30-II dished road wheels. (Doesn't say how many)
83.4mm is the UK 20pdr, so Piotr's picture is presumably KW30-II, and with the 90mm Swiss gun.

I'm doing a bit of digging on the KW30 (should probs make a new thread) but do u still happen to have that book? I wonder what sources was used for the KW30 info.

 

[Zorii_Bliss]

A strange idea has just come to my mind...

Here is a picture in which there is a mock-up of a tank designed in the late 1950s in Switzerland and designated the K+W 30. It was a predecessor to their Pz 61/68 tank series.

Do you see that striking resemlance between the Indien Panzer and that Swiss project? Perhaps there was some kind of proliferation of ideas between German designers and their Swiss counterparts?

Piotr

Sorry for the 16 year later question, but do u remember were u got this image from?
(i asked too quickly, found the link, however its broken ;_; )

As "Hood's" (Mar 12, 2019) linked article shows there are no links between the "Indien Panzer" and the KW30 or Pz 58.

Indien Panzer - Tank Encyclopedia

The Indien Panzer was a joint German-Indian project to create a tank for India. It would never leave the drawing board.

tanks-encyclopedia.com

 

[blockhaj]

A strange idea has just come to my mind...

Here is a picture in which there is a mock-up of a tank designed in the late 1950s in Switzerland and designated the K+W 30. It was a predecessor to their Pz 61/68 tank series.

Do you see that striking resemlance between the Indien Panzer and that Swiss project? Perhaps there was some kind of proliferation of ideas between German designers and their Swiss counterparts?

Piotr

Sorry for the 16 year later question, but do u remember were u got this image from?
(i asked too quickly, found the link, however its broken ;_; )

As "Hood's" (Mar 12, 2019) linked article shows there are no links between the "Indien Panzer" and the KW30 or Pz 58.

Indien Panzer - Tank Encyclopedia

The Indien Panzer was a joint German-Indian project to create a tank for India. It would never leave the drawing board.

tanks-encyclopedia.com

Uhm ok. Not really sure why you quoted me though.