General Dynamics Convair Models 200 / 201 / 218 Sea Control Ship fighters

[R_K_M]

Despite looking like F-15 intakes, these were probably not variable intakes, right?

 

[fightingirish]

Some pictures showing a Convair Model 200 wind tunnel or an engineering modell were posted recently at SDASM Flickr Archives. IMHO here the three most interesting pictures:

https://flic.kr/p/2p3Qm51

View: https://flic.kr/p/2p3Qm51

https://flic.kr/p/2p3Mwq8

View: https://flic.kr/p/2p3Mwq8

https://flic.kr/p/2p2od2B

View: https://flic.kr/p/2p2od2B

 

[RAP]

Images from another older Ebay offering that I failed to win.

 

[Archibald]

Wonderful !

 

[R_K_M]

Some things I noticed: the model 200 had a significantly higher thrust at takeoff (~37.5 klbs) than it's maximum thrust in level flight (~28.1 klbs). The same is true for for many VTOL/STOVL designs like including the VFW VAK 191, Mirage III-V, Do 31, Yak-38 and Yak-141. Meanwhile the F-35B and Harrier both have the same max thrust at takeoff and level flight (Harrier because they don't have an AB, F-35 because its fan happens to add about the same thrust as its AB). I am not sure if/how much that helps in STO, but it does mean CTO and VTOL are a lot nearer. (edit1: I should say "installed thrust", obviously actual thrust differs depending on flight conditions) (edit4: I am fucking stupid, the Harrier had the water injection thingy which increased thrust by 50% for 90 seconds)

Additionally I don't quite buy the the "the lift engines are dead weight, therefore the F-35 lift fan is better" argument. RR/Allision were designing lift engines with a 20:1 TW back in the 70s. The lift fan system also weights a shitton ("dead weight"), very possibly more than lift engines would. The lift fan probably has other advantages, e.g. better fuel economy in VTOL or better lifecycle cost. edit3: D'oh, the lift system has also a cooler exhaust and doesn't melt carrier decks as easily.

And lastly, the F135 has a very low bypass ratio, which means that if you think about the whole engine system, the F-35B goes from a "high" bypass design in VTOL to a low bypass design in level flight. Meanwhile the Model 200 would go from low bypass at VTOL to "high" bypass at level flight. Not sure that meany anything though, never mind what it means.

Edit2: on another note, the 30klbs MTOW figure is obvious bullshit imho unless you are in a high and hot scenario. The harrier does that, with a significantly lower thrust and as a smaller plane.

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

If you have some deep pockets, this is currently selling on Ebay. Gotta admit though, it's a definite catch. Not only do you get a rare model, you get some rare docs as well. It's a win-win :

Convair V/STOL Model 200 Prototype Factory In-house Rare Like Topping Model

Item description from the seller:

As found, pictures to determine condition. To include rare relevant unclassified documents dated 26 Feb, 1973 and original Executive Summary. Free shipping and discounts may apply. Making room for other models. The model is 14” long.

Convair V/STOL Model 200 Prototype Factory In-house Rare Like Topping Model | eBay

Making room for other models. The model is 14” long.

www.ebay.com

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Nice. I took the liberty of adding better quality images to your post.

Its a lovely model and some interesting documents, hope it finds a good home with a forum member

 

[Archibald]

"All I want for Christmas is yooooooou, wooooohoooooo, baby..."

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

Nice. I took the liberty of adding better quality images to your post.

Its a lovely model and some interesting documents, hope it finds a good home with a forum member

Thanks! Yeah, actually did save the pics from eBay. Unfortunately they didn't save as jpg's and were unable to be uploaded here. So I went back and took screenshots which I then uploaded with my post.

Thank you, though.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

An hour to go and 'just' $300 US. Not too bad.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

US $739.99. Sold.

 

[uk 75]

Courtesy of the Sir George Cox Collection is this model of the US Marines version.

 

[Spino]

Somehow I get the feeling the Marines would have wanted tip rails for Sidewinders, but I might be wrong.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

https://flic.kr/p/2pQWJon

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718768649/in/photostream/

https://flic.kr/p/2pQXduU

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718863220/in/photostream/

https://flic.kr/p/2pQWJoH

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718768669/in/photostream/

https://flic.kr/p/2pQQmoA

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53717523982/in/photostream/

https://flic.kr/p/2pQV1ss

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718432486/in/photostream/

https://flic.kr/p/2pQV1sx

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718432491/in/photostream/

https://flic.kr/p/2pQQmoW

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53717524002/in/photostream/

https://flic.kr/p/2pQV1t9

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718432526/in/photostream/

https://flic.kr/p/2pQXdvR

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718863275/in/photostream/

https://flic.kr/p/2pQXdvL

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718863270/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718768739/in/photostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53717524022/in/photostream/

 

[apparition13]

https://flic.kr/p/2pQXduU

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718863220/in/photostream/

ASW aircraft avionics? What does that mean?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

ASW aircraft avionics? What does that mean?

This is a slide on general aircraft IRAD (Internal Research and Development) activities ongoing at Convair (San Diego). Convair bid on the VSX (S-3 Viking) program.

 

[apparition13]

This is a slide on general aircraft IRAD (Internal Research and Development) activities ongoing at Convair (San Diego). Convair bid on the VSX (S-3 Viking) program.

Weird. The slide makes it look like it's all related to the 200 program.

 

[R_K_M]

Has someone measured the size (diameter) of the nose? It looks really small, I wonder what kind of radar would have fit into it.

 

[fightingirish]

New pictures of the General Dynamics Convair Models 200, 201 and 218 Sea Control Ship fighters at SDASM Archives. B)
[...]

New pictures showing the General Dynamics Convair Models 200, 201 and 218 Sea Control Ship fighters were uploaded to SDASM Flickr Archives today. Some of these drawings by the illustrator Roy Gjertson might have already posted in topic before.

https://flic.kr/p/2qqDZxk

View: https://flic.kr/p/2qqDZxk

https://flic.kr/p/2qqDyN9

View: https://flic.kr/p/2qqDyN9

https://flic.kr/p/2qqDZwi

View: https://flic.kr/p/2qqDZwi

https://flic.kr/p/2qqCfz5

View: https://flic.kr/p/2qqCfz5

https://flic.kr/p/2qqDZxR

View: https://flic.kr/p/2qqDZxR

https://flic.kr/p/2qqEA4L

View: https://flic.kr/p/2qqEA4L

 

[Stargazer]

This image from SDASM is described as showing the Model 200, but I have my doubts...



The design looks a little different, and the date (7 November 1963) seems a little early for the Sea Control Ship program. Any ideas?

https://flic.kr/p/2pQW5uA

View: https://www.flickr.com/photos/sdasmarchives/53718641178

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

We discussed this in May 2024.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/convair-san-diego-model-23-naval-fighter-1970-1973.30621/

Its a lightweight fighter study from early seventies, ancestral to Model 200 studies as per this diagram.

 

[Darthtabby]

Does anyone have any information on the Model 218 specifically? I thought it might provide some insights into the direction the Model 200/201 might have evolved into. Though according to Tony Buttler's American Secret Projects the Navy was ordered to choose one of the Air Force lightweight fighters for its lightweight fighter requirement in August 1974 while the October 1974 Aviation Progress article clipping posted by Paul indicated the Model 200A was the subject of ongoing design studies at the time so the 200 arguably outlived the 218.

Some pictures showing a Convair Model 200 wind tunnel or an engineering modell were posted recently at SDASM Flickr Archives. IMHO here the three most interesting pictures:

https://flic.kr/p/2p3Qm51

View: https://flic.kr/p/2p3Qm51

https://flic.kr/p/2p3Mwq8

View: https://flic.kr/p/2p3Mwq8

https://flic.kr/p/2p2od2B

View: https://flic.kr/p/2p2od2B

The part I find really interesting is that the angle of the canards on that model suggest they were supposed to be all moving whereas a lot of illustrations just have flaps on the canards.

Some things I noticed: the model 200 had a significantly higher thrust at takeoff (~37.5 klbs) than it's maximum thrust in level flight (~28.1 klbs). The same is true for for many VTOL/STOVL designs like including the VFW VAK 191, Mirage III-V, Do 31, Yak-38 and Yak-141. Meanwhile the F-35B and Harrier both have the same max thrust at takeoff and level flight (Harrier because they don't have an AB, F-35 because its fan happens to add about the same thrust as its AB). I am not sure if/how much that helps in STO, but it does mean CTO and VTOL are a lot nearer. (edit1: I should say "installed thrust", obviously actual thrust differs depending on flight conditions) (edit4: I am fucking stupid, the Harrier had the water injection thingy which increased thrust by 50% for 90 seconds)

Additionally I don't quite buy the the "the lift engines are dead weight, therefore the F-35 lift fan is better" argument. RR/Allision were designing lift engines with a 20:1 TW back in the 70s. The lift fan system also weights a shitton ("dead weight"), very possibly more than lift engines would. The lift fan probably has other advantages, e.g. better fuel economy in VTOL or better lifecycle cost. edit3: D'oh, the lift system has also a cooler exhaust and doesn't melt carrier decks as easily.

And lastly, the F135 has a very low bypass ratio, which means that if you think about the whole engine system, the F-35B goes from a "high" bypass design in VTOL to a low bypass design in level flight. Meanwhile the Model 200 would go from low bypass at VTOL to "high" bypass at level flight. Not sure that meany anything though, never mind what it means.

Edit2: on another note, the 30klbs MTOW figure is obvious bullshit imho unless you are in a high and hot scenario. The harrier does that, with a significantly lower thrust and as a smaller plane.

American Secret Projects lists a VTO gross weight of 25,000lbs and a CTO gross weight of 31,090lbs for the Model 200A (as an aside while the data chart does not list fuel capacity the write up earlier in the chapter credits the Model 200A with an internal fuel load of 5875lbs). It might be worth noting that the aircraft was intended to be able to land with one of the lift engines out.

Exhaust on deck is still an issue with the F-35B if the rear nozzle is aiming down, but the lift fan presumably helps a lot with preventing the engine from reingesting hot gases.

Edit: Realized the VTOL data page in American Secret Projects lists gross weight which is not necessarily the same thing as MTOW. I do wonder if the book used the terms interchangeably for some of the aircraft though the figures for the AV-8C seem light for that at 20,450lbs VTO and 24,250lbs CTO. Though given that the max speed for the AV-8C is listed as Mach 1.2 at altitude it was obviously differed somewhat from the subsonic AV-8B that was eventually built instead.

 

[R_K_M]

[...}

American Secret Projects lists a VTO gross weight of 25,000lbs and a CTO gross weight of 31,090lbs for the Model 200A (as an aside while the data chart does not list fuel capacity the write up earlier in the chapter credits the Model 200A with an internal fuel load of 5875lbs). It might be worth noting that the aircraft was intended to be able to land with one of the lift engines out.

[...]

Edit: Realized the VTOL data page in American Secret Projects lists gross weight which is not necessarily the same thing as MTOW. I do wonder if the book used the terms interchangeably for some of the aircraft though the figures for the AV-8C seem light for that at 20,450lbs VTO and 24,250lbs CTO. Though given that the max speed for the AV-8C is listed as Mach 1.2 at altitude it was obviously differed somewhat from the subsonic AV-8B that was eventually built instead.

Note that takeoff weight isn't necessarily related to bringback weight at all. It's pretty common for carrier aircraft to not be able to land with as much weight as they launch with.

And yeah, 31klbs gross weight makes *a lot* more sense than CTO MTOW.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Greetings everyone, I discovered the Sea Control Ship concept by the company Rohr Marine Inc. in the SDASM Flickr Archives yesterday. Please take note of the Convair Model 200 aircraft stationed onboard.

https://flic.kr/p/2rHrHaQ

View: https://flic.kr/p/2rHrHaQ