France-Germany-Spain Future Combat Air System (FCAS/SCAF/FSAC)

No pitch-up for the levcons?
 
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They are studying differential circulation for yaw.

The laser is cleverly routed across the model (I guess via a fiber optic) to be used for the intrados. So with one laser, both volume can be studied.
 
TomcatViP said:
They are studying differential circulation for yaw.

The laser is cleverly routed across the model (I guess via a fiber optic) to be used for the intrados. So with one laser, both volume can be studied.
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Lasers like this have been used for decades. The type of analysis they're used for is usually Trefftz plane analysis, but they're good at seeing slices of the flow field around any vehicle/object.
 
apparition13 said:
No pitch-up for the levcons?
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They're just studying how effective they are at various alpha/yaw. I'm quite sure they changed alpha and yaw during the tests. The control surfaces aren't supposed to move the wind tunnel model. As the surfaces deflect, the reaction loads are recorded at the stinger mount, so they can determine force and moment coefficients to see how effective the surfaces are at various deflections and combinations of deflections with regard to various combinations of attitude relative to the velocity vector.
 
Sundog said:
TomcatViP said:
They are studying differential circulation for yaw.

The laser is cleverly routed across the model (I guess via a fiber optic) to be used for the intrados. So with one laser, both volume can be studied.
Click to expand...
Lasers like this have been used for decades. The type of analysis they're used for is usually Trefftz plane analysis, but they're good at seeing slices of the flow field around any vehicle/object.
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Yes, it has been. Didn't said differently. But noticed that both volume are sampled at the same time.
 
L’excellente capacité du code ONERA COpAiER (COde plasmA
instationnaire pour l’aERodynamique)
à simuler des décharges plasmas
au sein d’écoulements et à com￾prendre les effets de la force
électro-hydro-dynamique, a été
démontrée dans le cadre d'une
collaboration avec Airbus Central
Research and Technology sur la propulsion ionique. La simulation d'une
décharge couronne sur un profil d’aile a parfaitement reproduit les effets
observés en laboratoire, une avancée majeure. Des travaux réalisés dans le
cadre du projet européen CTFF (Control of the Turbulent Friction Force)
.
ils ont permis d'expliquer l'inversion d'écoulement provoqué par un action￾neur axisymétrique. Et une simulation d’une décharge plasma hors équili￾bre de type pointe dans un écoulement supersonique a, pour la première
fois, démontré le couplage entre les effets de séparation de charge et l’écou￾lement porteur.
----------------//////--------------------

The excellent capacity of the code ONERA COPAIER (COde plasma unsteady for aerodynamics) to simulate plasma discharges within flows and to understand the effects of the force electro-hydro-dynamic, has been
demonstrated in a
collaboration with Airbus Central
Research and Technology on ion propulsion. The simulation of a
corona discharge on a wing profile perfectly reproduced the effects
observed in the laboratory, a major advance. Work carried out in the
European project CTFF (Control of the Turbulent Friction Force)
.
they made it possible to explain the flow inversion caused by an axisymmetric actuator. And a simulation of an out-of-equilibrium spike-like plasma discharge in a supersonic flow a, for the first
times demonstrated the coupling between charge separation effects and carrier flow.
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Plasma effectors study for FCAS. See also the golden lining on the test mockup

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OK, I'll admit to being slightly intrigued.

At Paris, Dassault were still showing their original big SCAF mock up - a configuration with a cranked arrow wing, heavily canted butterfly tail, and a shallow canopy.

The FCAS Chalet (Airbus?) had a new model of their twin tailed tandem cockpit aircraft with the cranked leading edge and massive LERXes.

I'm not sure whether the newer, tailless model was on display at all.

Screenshot 2023-06-22 at 20.57.01.png

BSP_58452-JDW-22235.jpeg

NGF.jpeg


Surprising that they don't seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet?
 
Minimal (effort) might be the new way to stealth... Let's hope that it translates in the credit line.
 
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Jackonicko said:
I'm not sure whether the newer, tailless model was on display at all.
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I'd say 'oldest' first shown in Dassault TV video uploaded on March 2018.
Apparently it's related to ONERA Superman research model. Then very alike configuration dubbed NGF was shown on October 2018 at Euronaval'18 in form of a model.

Different Airbus / Dassault models in marketing publications and show booths apparently show us level of _concorde_ between two partners.
 
flateric said:
Jackonicko said:
I'm not sure whether the newer, tailless model was on display at all.
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I'd say 'oldest' first shown in Dassault TV video uploaded on March 2018.
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That Airbus design dates from before July 2017.
The butterfly tail design from 2019, so we're both wrong - that design was neither oldest nor newest.

flateric said:
Different Airbus / Dassault models in marketing publications and show booths apparently show us level of _concorde_ between two partners.
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The different designs surely show a level of divergence, rather than of 'concorde'?
 
galgot said:
While I agree for the most , the "socialist economy" part was funny ...
Lol, if we have a socialism here, what do you have in the US ? Feudalism ?
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Mercantilism, sadly. Crony capitalism at its worst.
 
galgot said:
LowObservable said:
Grand-mere, c'est toi?
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Or Grand-Père :) Avion is a masculine word in French. Note also how the world changed from a time when French project would be named ACF, for Avion de Combat Futur, a French acronym, to now NGF (New Generation Fighter) an English acronym for a French/German project.
Must be impossible to make an acronym that works both in French AND German... :D
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Probably.

galgot said:
And its indeed about the same size as ACF... which was too big (and expensive) for Fr AF, as was the Mirage 4000.
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I don't think you will get the capabilities desired in a plane even the size of the Rafale, as the Lockheed NGAD prototype is supposed to be about the size of a Sukhoi, or maybe a bit bigger. 22+ meters long!
 
Some tailless weirdness called FCAS presents in MTU 2022 results video.
Interesting that Diehl had it's very own Airbus FCAS model at their booth at PAS'23)
 

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kaiserd said:
TomcatViP said:
Dassault could seek other joint ventures, especially if F-35 are denied to countries like the UAE or Saudi Arabia. (see that undead 4000).
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Unlikely the likes of France, Germany, Italy, Spain (& UK) will want to have the future of their military aviation industries and force structures dependent on those potentially unreliable and unstable regimes which have many many potentialy impactful underlying issues.
The likes of UAE and Saudi are normally referenced in this type of context when people are proposing “what ifs” they know are unaffordable and need a convenient magic tree to suddenly appear.
Both countries track record is of waiting and seeing what already developed and proven options are available when they come shopping; they may have an interest in what eventually emerges from these various programs but appear unlikely to be suckered in to pay for, say, the UK or France prolonging the fantasy that they can still do somethings on their own which they really can’t anymore.
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A key point is that France did get the UAE to buy more than half of the total production run of Leclerc tanks. But I don't know of any other specific programs where that worked out.
 
red admiral said:
Best athlete is fine, but if your country isn't then you might as well just purchase off the shelf
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Your country won't ever be best athlete if you don't get in there and do the work developing new hardware, tech, and the skills to work with it!
 
Scott Kenny said:
A key point is that France did get the UAE to buy more than half of the total production run of Leclerc tanks. But I don't know of any other specific programs where that worked out.
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I mean the US has managed to get Saudi Arabia to buy a version of the cursed LCS...
 
timmymagic said:
Scott Kenny said:
A key point is that France did get the UAE to buy more than half of the total production run of Leclerc tanks. But I don't know of any other specific programs where that worked out.
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I mean the US has managed to get Saudi Arabia to buy a version of the cursed LCS...
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Yes, but then the Princes can go water-skiing behind those...

I'm not sure Char Leclerc would have been built without the UAE buy.
 
The shorter explanation for the different designs is, if you're seeing it, that ain't it. I'm sure they're legitimate design studies, but they aren't going to show anyone what they're truly thinking for the design. Also, you can't design the plane until you know what it's specific mission will be. Such as range, maneuvering requirements, etc. I doubt they know what that is yet. They're just developing the tech. to be ready for when they make that decision.
 
Archibald said:
The AMX-30 needed replacement so yes.
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Right. But it didn't have to be as fancy as the Leclerc ended up. Could have been a 4 man crew with no autoloader, plain diesel instead of the hyperbar engine, much lower electronics fit. UAE buying almost 400 tanks meant that France could spread the development costs across nearly 800 tanks and have a better production run to lower costs that way.
 
Scott Kenny said:
UAE buying almost 400 tanks meant that France could spread the development costs across nearly 800 tanks and have a better production run to lower costs that way.
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Except the Leclerc’s development was complete and it was already in service and in serial production in 1993 when the UAE decided to buy it. So the tank would have existed without the UAE.
 
flateric said:
Some tailless weirdness called FCAS presents in MTU 2022 results video.
Interesting that Diehl had it's very own Airbus FCAS model at their booth at PAS'23)
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Doesn't look like a serious design. Looks like they just wanted to present something that looks like a future aircraft without getting into conflict with the different FCAS designs.
flateric said:
Meantime at DLR...

German Aerospace Center

www.dlr.de www.dlr.de
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Thanks for all these interesting documents. Based on these researches, the new airplane would become a heavy fighter, larger than the F-22 or Su-57 with two engines with the thrust of an F135 (F-35). I can already hear the people complaining about the prices of that airplane :D
 
BlueFPV said:
Based on these researches, the new airplane would become a heavy fighter, larger than the F-22 or Su-57 with two engines with the thrust of an F135 (F-35). I can already hear the people complaining about the prices of that airplane :D
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Yes, that's what it's looking like to me. Any 6th Gen aircraft is going to be big.
 

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