• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

France and Germany to develop new european fighter jet

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
3,402
Reaction score
978
When it was cancelled I argued for the headline "Avion de Combat Foutu". Editors are sooooo boring.
bravo ! I laughed like an idiot, you sir made my day.

to the others: imagine a (mostly unfortunate) foreigner moving to France with his three cars: a MR2, a Koleos, and an E-tron. In a nutshell: j'ai une MR2 et un E-tron Koleos lip...
 

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
943
Reaction score
262
Thanks for the top view of the French Replique à tort JoseFern. What is the source ?
 

LowObservable

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
2,188
Reaction score
88
Well done that man! Captured late in the evening after the site has been cleared. A sneak attack with a drone, perhaps? The work of but a moment from the Musee de l'Air car park.
 

kitnut617

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Dec 15, 2006
Messages
363
Reaction score
76
Was there a reason for the strategically placed trees at the rear of the mock-up. And in that view, it does look quite a handsome aircraft.
 

galgot

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
766
Reaction score
620
Website
galgot.com
Was there a reason for the strategically placed trees at the rear of the mock-up. And in that view, it does look quite a handsome aircraft.
Some environmental concerns message from Dassault maybe ? :D
"After us, the forest grows"
 

JoseFern

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3
Reaction score
12

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
3,402
Reaction score
978
On rappellera ici ce que les plus lettrés soulignèrent en 2006, au moment où Renault officialisait le choix du patronyme de son SUV : en grec moderne, koleos se traduit par vagin. Il s’agit là d’une évolution du grec ancien, où le terme signifie l’étui, le sac, le fourreau. Ce qui, par extension et selon le dictionnaire Littré, a fini par désigner la bourse et le testicule. Voilà qui donne le mot coleus en latin, ou couille en français. Gageons qu’aucun propriétaire du modèle ne se vantera d’en savoir autant.
It is actually worse than I thought. Koleos is the word for BOTH vagina (in Greek) and "couille" (Latin) from coleus which means sheath / scabbard - for obvious reasons.
 

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
943
Reaction score
262
As, apart the drawing of the V-tail Dassault bi-engine stealth project from the beginning of the 90's, the NGF Le Bourget mock-up looks like all other flying or not projects of the aviation history, I Propose that you open a topic to choose the name of this "plane" and that you send the winner name to Dassault and Airbus. I am sure that it will be a hype by them
Thanks :)
 

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
943
Reaction score
262
Hi,

From the December issue of the French monthly TV Magazine Le journal de la Défense, there is some vews of the first NGF Drawings (maybe outdated today, as the 1/1 model of Le Bourget Airshow 2019 does not look like) from Dassault, from 16'42" to 16'55" :

 

Attachments

Last edited:

oof034

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Nov 17, 2019
Messages
1
Reaction score
1
Well done that man! Captured late in the evening after the site has been cleared. A sneak attack with a drone, perhaps? The work of but a moment from the Musee de l'Air car park.
Its an Airbus remote carrier. They are being developed it in partnership with Dassault, so that the drones can partner with the NGF/FCAS plane in the battlefield
 

Attachments

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
11,237
Reaction score
1,506

German MPs approved loans of 77 million euros ($83 million) to launch a research project which aims to build the first prototypes of a "new generation fighter" for European armed forces by 2026.

Despite concerns that French manufacturers may be getting a larger share of the project than their German counterparts, MPs in Berlin voted overwhelmingly in favour of freeing up funds for the jet, which would ultimately be deployed closer to 2040.
The project had already cleared one key hurdle in December when an agreement was reached between French and German engine manufacturers over how to divide the project.

Wednesday's vote clears the way for contracts to be signed with major industrial companies such as Dassault, Airbus and Thales, and is a timely reboot for the previously hamstrung programme.
 
Last edited:

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,678
Reaction score
860
If France does stump up the same amount of money then at a total of around $166M would still be lower than that Britain and France agreed for the FCAS under the Lancaster House deal of 2016 ($1.87Bn). Of course they have pledged up to $4.5Bn by 2025 but this still implies a rather slower trickle of money.
Also, I am not an expert on German federal government funding, but "loans" is a rather odd way of putting this. Is this direct investment or are they expecting to recoup this money from Airbus/Dassault?
 

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
943
Reaction score
262
If France does stump up the same amount of money then at a total of around $166M would still be lower than that Britain and France agreed for the FCAS under the Lancaster House deal of 2016 ($1.87Bn). Of course they have pledged up to $4.5Bn by 2025 but this still implies a rather slower trickle of money.
Also, I am not an expert on German federal government funding, but "loans" is a rather odd way of putting this. Is this direct investment or are they expecting to recoup this money from Airbus/Dassault?
AFAIK, it's direct investment.

The program is already 8 months late…

I was optimistic until September, but since then I begin to doubt that this cooperation will go to the end ..
 

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,678
Reaction score
860
The export woes for the Atlas alluded to this week must still be a worry for Dassault unless it thinks that German policy on arms sales will change over the next decade.
It seems to be harming both Atlas and Eurofighter and as much as we might morally hand-wring, the truth is the market for top high-end military fighters is small and many of those nations are not squeaky clean. Historically Dassault and BAe have done very well in that market. To fight off the kind of market penetration the F-35 will have within another 10 years is going to be difficult anyway, let alone with one hand tied back for fear of getting too muddy in the very dirty world of arms trading.
 

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
943
Reaction score
262
Partly because of the link between SCAF and franco-german main battle tank MGCS, at this stage of the program, there are so many divergent interests (French government, German government, Dassault, Airbus Germany, SAFRAN, MTU, Indra, Airbus Spain, Thales, KMW, Nexter, Rheinmetall, German Bundestag, and so many others) that I wonder if it will go to the end ... And if it arrives, it will have to go through so much compromises that it risks being produce exactly the opposite of what was initially planned by the French and German governments : multiple specificities resulting in loss of time and money to end up with an expensive device, difficult to develop, and perhaps obsolete at the time of its exit ...
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
436
Let's be realistic: every delay is pure honey for Dassault & Airbus that can still sell there expensive previous generation antics, including spare parts from a time where cost was less relevant and special (read mandatory in-house made) upgrades.
 

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
943
Reaction score
262
Let's be realistic: every delay is pure honey for Dassault & Airbus that can still sell there expensive previous generation antics, including spare parts from a time where cost was less relevant and special (read mandatory in-house made) upgrades.
I don't really see the connection with the subject, but if we go this way :
Let's be realistic : see you in a few years when the users of F-35, in particular the countries which ordered a small quantity, will make the accounts of the maintenance in operational condition of the F-35. At that time, we will talk about what is expensive/antic or not, particularly if until then, anti-stealth detection means begin to appear...
 
Last edited:

litzj

BLOG : http://jaesan-aero.blogspot.com/
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
248
Reaction score
23
Website
jaesan-aero.blogspot.com
As they reveal the new CG of the aircraft, it become uglier than the previous one.
It's exactly the same as what was showed (as CG too) in June 2019 in Le Bourget...

I thought this tail-less delta configuration is much handsome

 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
436
Probably that when they saw the development costs associated with such design they prudently switched back to a tail configuration with verticals.

I have said that often but Designer's extravaganza cost far more than what they charge (see H-160).
 
Last edited:

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
943
Reaction score
262
Finally, good news.

sorry, it's in French. I did not find articles in English yet

After agreements between KMW, Nexter and Rheinmetall on work sharing on the Main Battle Tank Program MGCS (program economally and politically linked to the SCAF),


signing today for phase 1A (150 millions €) of the SCAF program :


With the following division for the 5 pillars of the program :

-91 millions € for the New Generation Fighter : Dassault and Airbus.

-18 millions € for the engine : Safran and MTU.

-19,5 millions € for the remote carriers : Airbus and MBDA.

-14,5 millions € for the combat cloud : Airbus and Thales.

-6 millions € for studies for the overall project coherence and the simulation labs.

moreover, Airbus Spain and Indra got 2 millions € for the R&T project.
Edit : according to the article, it seems that "later in 2020" Spain will add 45 millions € to the first 150 millions € of France and Germany.
 
Last edited:

Deino

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
2,664
Reaction score
371
Thanks a lot for keeping us updated; very much appreciated!

By the way, I will attend a conference in late March at London's RUSI on "Competing Visions for the Future of Combat Air", where a French representative will speak about the FCAS/SCAF.

Hopefully I can post some news thereafter.
 

Archibald

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
3,402
Reaction score
978
Not particularly beautiful nor sleek, but futuristic as hell. I like it. This time the very last legacy of the Mirage family is gone (the Rafale could be linked to the Mirage 4000).
 

VTOLicious

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
668
Reaction score
267
In general the shape is not bad at all... It is the proportions that makes it look odd :rolleyes:
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,640
Reaction score
436
Intuitively, the wing is too big (lot of trim) but probably acting in yaw with camber differential.
The nose looks too small (expensive and exclusive radar set). But not sure there are any in front ;)

But what a sea of changes since we had female MoDs all across old Europe.

Hope they will call it the Cougar (the closest female equivalent of a Tomcat).
 
Last edited:

galgot

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Messages
766
Reaction score
620
Website
galgot.com
At least looks better than the pelican...
Anyway, at the pace the things are going, France will end up doing it alone (cause it can) again. Only in ... 2060 maybe, if that ever happens, and will end up very different and much smaller me think.
... Or ... Nothing will be done, and we'll all have F-35s (or 36 , 37...?), and no more french mil plane maker around. Happy now ?
 
Last edited:

Hood

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
1,678
Reaction score
860
Well the Tempest also has a rather odd nose profile, seems to be the name of the game these days.
These models just feel too generic to me, good for brightening up a marketing stand but not quite the real deal I think.

We have no idea how things might pan out. Neither SCAF or Tempest has a sustainable critical mass yet in terms of funding or partners. Once we see some hardware and real commitments it will a different matter.
 
Last edited:

Deltafan

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
943
Reaction score
262
H_K and VTOLicious, thanks for the sharing.

What is (are) your source(s) for the desk model ?
 
Top