For All Mankind - Apple TV Series

Dilandu

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WTF launch from C-5 and direct using High Thrust Nuclear engine ?! o_O
A C-5 can carry 750,000 lb (340,194 kg) at 41,000 ft (12,000 m)
THERE START UP A NERVA ENGINE AT 12 KM ?!

NERVA? No. NERVA did not have anything even close to required thrust and isp. They must be runing liquid-core nuclear engine, spreading a trail of enormously radioactive droplets of boiled nuclear fuel in their exhaust.
 

Michel Van

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klPZucX_PPQ


They say clearly NERVA and it make no sense,
A DUMBO reactor design that has the thrust level to push that bird into orbit !
But not NERVA core or Liquid core can provide the needed thrust
or makers went for Air augmented Thrust system or LOX-augmented Nuclear Thermal Rocket
 
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Michel Van

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it would need (counting 100 ton shuttle + 200 ton propellant) about 860 seconds of isp - roughly within solid-core nuclear engine capabilities.
with a thrust of around 400 metric ton or 4000kN...
The only design i know is DUMBO that could reach that level of thrust
 

Archibald

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Depends... Sea Dragon is bobbing out in an ocean of corrosive saltwater...

As for Pathfinder, if the exhaust is radioactive, then the C-5 vertical tail standing in the way must glow in the dark...
 

Dilandu

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As for Pathfinder, if the exhaust is radioactive, then the C-5 vertical tail standing in the way must glow in the dark...
With the required power of the nuclear rocket engine, it would most likely kill several thousands of Americans unlucky enough to get caught on its incredibly radioactive fallout path...
 

Grey Havoc

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Getting tense. Though I don’t see how they could have got caught with their pants down in the last scene.
I suspect the fact that they were in a reduced power state for reactor maintenance (suggesting that the Soviets knew the exact schedule from their assets within NASA) along with Soviet expertise in Electronic Warfare had a lot to do with it.

 

Archibald

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Well, I just have one word to say, regarding the above video... FUCK. But really.
 

Dilandu

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I do not know, why the quality of technical side dropped so drastically, but second season of FOM is... hopeless. Star War-ish fantasy with some pseudo-realistic ideas thrown into without understanding.

Total disappointment. :(
 

sferrin

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Getting tense. Though I don’t see how they could have got caught with their pants down in the last scene.
I suspect the fact that they were in a reduced power state for reactor maintenance (suggesting that the Soviets knew the exact schedule from their assets within NASA) along with Soviet expertise in Electronic Warfare had a lot to do with it.

Was just thinking tension was high. Would think they'd have had a watch out. Of course somebody has to guard the mine. Now if they just wanted to cause trouble they could have taken a 10 mile sniper shot with plausible deniability. "Whoops, meteoroid." Also would think they'd have way tougher glass.
 

Grey Havoc

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Presumably some form of HV ammo or penetrator round was being used.
 
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Rhinocrates

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It would have been a lot more plausible for Pathfinder to have been similar to the Shuttle 2 studies, for sure - even if on our timeline they came a few years later. Not sufficiently 'badass'?
 

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Cannonfodder43

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They got most of it right and its very clear the writers listen quite carefully to their advisers. That alone is leagues above the TV I have seen my parents watch every now and then.

I would prefer it to be more technically accurate, but beggars can't be choosers.
 

Archibald

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I often think the hardest segment is the one between Earth orbit and cislunar space - the 3.1 km/s to Earth escape.

I'm not surprised For All Mankind got it "wrong" with "ordinary Shuttles" and "NERVA Shuttle". It is not easy for TV show script writers to explain how daunting is delta-V to the Moon.
Earth surface to Earth orbit: 9 km/s
Earth escape: +3 km/s
Decent to lunar surface: +2.5 km/s total 14.5 km/s.

Same for specific impulse: 445 seconds is so little in the grand scheme of things...

It would take 1500 or even 2000 seconds to get a proper starship able to make a round trip without shredding large chunks all along the way.
 

sferrin

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Getting tense. Though I don’t see how they could have got caught with their pants down in the last scene.

Well, at the end of the day, it is just a TV show.

More accuracy would be good but hey, the Sea Dragon is awesome, and pretty accurate. The Saturn 1B from Ep9 was good too. :)
When I started watching this show I was watching one of the early episodes, saw the LEM cockpit and thought, "wait, they didn't have LEDs then did they?" Pulled up actual photos of the cockpit and it was obvious they'd used those photos for reference. And they were pretty much dead on as far as I looked. (Having just double-checked they may have NOT been LEDs. Apparently there were earlier 7-segment displays that used different technology.)
 

Archibald

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I often think the hardest segment is the one between Earth orbit and cislunar space - the 3.1 km/s to Earth escape.

I'm not surprised For All Mankind got it "wrong" with "ordinary Shuttles" and "NERVA Shuttle". It is not easy for TV show script writers to explain how daunting is delta-V to the Moon.
Earth surface to Earth orbit: 9 km/s
Earth escape: +3 km/s
Decent to lunar surface: +2.5 km/s total 14.5 km/s.

Same for specific impulse: 445 seconds is so little in the grand scheme of things...

It would take 1500 or even 2000 seconds to get a proper starship able to make a round trip without shredding large chunks all along the way.

The more I look into this... I think the show scriptwriters specially picked "familiar looking shuttles a) because their public is familiar with, well, shuttles and b) as a way of staying close enough from our timeline, at least as far as space vehicles go...
Although of course for space nerds like myself, that's a little frustrating. But it also tells a human story, with characters, living, falling in love, dying... just like Dallas or Dynasty. Or the most basic Brazilian soap opera LMAO.
 

Michel Van

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I often think the hardest segment is the one between Earth orbit and cislunar space - the 3.1 km/s to Earth escape.

I'm not surprised For All Mankind got it "wrong" with "ordinary Shuttles" and "NERVA Shuttle". It is not easy for TV show script writers to explain how daunting is delta-V to the Moon.
Earth surface to Earth orbit: 9 km/s
Earth escape: +3 km/s
Decent to lunar surface: +2.5 km/s total 14.5 km/s.

Same for specific impulse: 445 seconds is so little in the grand scheme of things...

It would take 1500 or even 2000 seconds to get a proper starship able to make a round trip without shredding large chunks all along the way.
Ahem ahem

Shuttle (Chemical) launch from KSC 9 km/s to Orbit
There refuel at Station and LTI 2,997 km/s and 80 hours transfer to moon
enter Moon Orbit 0,879 km/s rendezvous with Lander (refuel ?)
Orbiter ETI 0,949 Km/s
Aerobrake manoeuvre to enter Low earth orbit Time out cooling Heat-shield
Return to Earth landing at KSC

makes Delta v of 4,825 km/s
partly in internal tank in shuttle Payload bay
while the LTI needed a external Tank on Shuttle
Refuel in Lunar orbit makes sense because it lower needed Propellants on LTI
 

uk 75

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I have not been watching this series but if I were doing a cheapo Brit version I would have stuck to the Von Braun plans for using bigger and better Saturn V variants.
That way I could do what Star Trek did and just use stock NASA footage of the VAB, Pad 39 and Saturns..
The in space stuff could then be model work as in 2001 using converted Revell kits for stuff like Skylab and Moonlab.
Get some decent scripts and actors and you could easily make an interesting alt 80s.
The Sov stuff similarly, but with N1 boosters in model form.
 

jeffb

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Getting tense. Though I don’t see how they could have got caught with their pants down in the last scene.

Well, at the end of the day, it is just a TV show.

More accuracy would be good but hey, the Sea Dragon is awesome, and pretty accurate. The Saturn 1B from Ep9 was good too. :)
When I started watching this show I was watching one of the early episodes, saw the LEM cockpit and thought, "wait, they didn't have LEDs then did they?" Pulled up actual photos of the cockpit and it was obvious they'd used those photos for reference. And they were pretty much dead on as far as I looked. (Having just double-checked they may have NOT been LEDs. Apparently there were earlier 7-segment displays that used different technology.)

From Wikipedia:

The Apollo guidance computer DSKY interface used an Electroluminescent display.

"Each digit was displayed via a green high-voltage electroluminescent seven-segment display (ELD); these were driven by electromechanical relays, limiting the update rate. Three five-digit signed numbers could also be displayed in octal or decimal, and were typically used to display vectors such as space craft attitude or a required velocity change (delta-V). Although data was stored internally in metric units, they were displayed as United States customary units. This calculator-style interface was the first of its kind."

If you're really keen (like really, really) you can make your own:

Hackaday - Ben Krasnow makes a DSKY
 

fightingirish

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fightingirish

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What an intense final episode :eek:, even as some scenes were so unrealistic as dilandu predicted. o_O
Here again a great review.
View: https://youtu.be/SdosGjqPziw
Major scenes in this episode:
View: https://youtu.be/S0zr1mnBQec

View: https://youtu.be/FTPw2kp3OiI

View: https://youtu.be/rlPiJKGklfo
View: https://youtu.be/Jm-ivjNvGVI

See you next season on Mars in the year 1995! :cool:
____________________________________________________________
Are they really attempting to put AIM-54 on the SPACECRAFT?
Yes, as quoted from this episode, there will be four AIM-54 ASAT missiles, which are based on the AIM-54C, stored in the cargo bay. No pictures of them stored in the cargo bay or even launched so far.
 

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Michel Van

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i gonna miss Gordo and Tracy

I wonder who is walking on mars in 1995: Soviets, USA, others ?

designer Tim Earls has nice workplace
 

Archibald

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Because I'm a rocket nerd since the craddle at least, I couldn't help doing some maths. And on paper at least, FAK alternate Shuttle could work.

This supposes
- it has plain old NERVA solid core NTR
- with 825 seconds specific impulse
- and the horrible T/W ratio of 5 (when Raptor hit 200)
- also mass fraction of OTL Reusable Nuclear Shuttle: 0.75
- MTOW is like OTL Orbiter, let's say 100 metric tonnes

First guess: the 747 is used to help the lousy T/W ratio at takeoff. Then it removes 1100 m/s out of 9400 m/s to Earth orbit, leaving only 8300 m/s.

Next, the Shuttle. Since it has jet engines, we can imagine they run on hydrogen and also that some heat from the nuclear pile is dumped into the exhaust. Both hydrogen fuel and nuclear heat, if used correctly, can tremendously help jet propulsion.
Case in point: Gurkolyot M(G)19; also Bussard ASPEN (we can imagine that NASA hired Bussard to design its nuclear shuttle) https://falsesteps.wordpress.com/20...-grab-the-problem-by-the-throat-not-the-tail/
As the reactor was just sitting there during the turbojets’ and scramjets’ operation, Gurko reasoned, why not use it to superheat their exhaust to increase thrust? The potential increase in efficiency was considerable

This is the key, but there is no need for ramjets or scramjets
- the 747 to Mach 1 already removed 1100 m/s
- then if the nuclear Shuttle accelerates on its hydrogen-and-nuclear-boosted jet engines to Mach 3, it removes 2000 m/s out of 9400, so 7400 m/s left.
- but we can imagine that, with hydrogen cooling and nuclear power it can accelerate to Mach 5.5 before switching to the nuclear rocket; and there, -3000 m/s out of 9400 m/s leaves 6400 m/s to orbit.

Now, does a SSTO with:
- 0.75 mass fraction
- 825 seconds specific impulse
- and "only" 6400 m/s to orbit
work ?

The rocket equation (with zero payload) should looks like

9.81*825*ln((100)/(25))+3000 = 14219 m/s.

It closes. Now let's add the theoretical OTL Shuttle max payload of 29.5 mt...

9.81*825*ln((100+29.5)/(25+29.5))+3000 = 10 004 m/s - still works.

Now they are refueling at Skylab (meh) and intends to go to the Moon.

Removing the airbreathing boost, same payload in the bay...

9.81*825*ln((100+29.5)/(25+29.5)) = 7004 m/s

LEO to LLO takes only 4100 m/s, one way; to get out, add TEI (Trans Earth Injection) +1000 m/s

Total 5100 m/s, still leaves 2000 m/s of margin for propulsive braking back to LEO... not enough, but aerobraking is "free" and will fill the gap.

And thus they have a Shuttle able to make the roundtrip with payload and margins...

Only problem: where do they put all that LH2 and LOX in the orbiter ?!! That's a big problem.

OTL Shuttle payload bay was 300 cubic meters, enough for some LOX along LH2, but not that much... and where would the payload go ? Sea Dragon ?
 

publiusr

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Now a Buran-type Shuttle II with hypergolics might work. Side launch it with an empty payload bay filling tank-like what we saw in the Cowboy Bebop episode 'Wild Horses.' Now you fill the hypergolics tank with Sea Dragon, which also leaves an blister tank atop the orbiter's payload bay tank...now that the payload bay doors are open. The orbiter burns to the Moon-blows its tankage...and an inflatable lander from Homer Hickam's novel "Back to the Moon" is deployed. The orbiter has snap-on ablatives underneath-like that described by Mr. Portree in one of his articles at 'No Shortage of Dreams' now that he is no longer at WIRED. This scenario is the only way I can think of that would be close to what we see on screan. No SSME weight. Not much payload-but less launches than Starship. Pathfinder looks like a Buran type Shuttle II...but I'd have it side launched from an Energia'd SLS and fueled by Sea Dragon.
 

Archibald

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As for the ordinary Shuttle... can it flies to the Moon ? To lunar orbit, yes - if, at Skylab, the payload bay if filled with a large hydrolox tank: 0.95 mass fraction, 300 m3, 200 mt of LH2 / LOX (density leaves no other choice, nor O/F ratio). This suppose that, in the For All Mankind timeline, at least one SSME is restartable in space. Alternative: two RL-10B2 in the OMS pods.

The 200 mt of LOX/LH2 would have to be lifted by 7 flights of Shuttle loaded with 30 mt each... or Sea Dragon, barely half a flight.
 

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Rhinocrates

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Only problem: where do they put all that LH2 and LOX in the orbiter ?!! That's a big problem.

OTL Shuttle payload bay was 300 cubic meters, enough for some LOX along LH2, but not that much... and where would the payload go ? Sea Dragon ?

Pathfinder has awfully thick wings. Maybe someone looked at Rockwell's Starraker.
 

publiusr

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I saw that. Now-a hypergolic tank could be smaller-perhaps part of the Space 1999 Eagle like horizontal lander with the capsule in the nose. It feeds into a Buran like hypergolic orbiter...then departs. The orbiter can stay or just loop back. I'd want a titanium airframe. Safer than Starship. Sea Dragon alone for one-way Lunar cargo missions, habs, Lunar Gemini escape craft, etc.
 
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