Farman Systems

[Maveric]

Hi all,

I need help with the Farman Designation Systems. I know 4:
1) Maurice Farman Airplanes ( M.F. )
2) Henri Farman Airplanes ( H.F. )
3) an early F - list with F.60, F.73 and other
4) a later F - list with F.200 Series or F.300 Series

all this Series are not complete, if you have complete lists please let me know... ;D

Servus Maveric

 

[Stingray]

Here are some:

Farman III (1909)
Farman MF.7 Longhorn (1913)
Farman MF.11 Shorthorn (1913)
Farman F.50 - biplane bomber (1918)
Farman F.50 - flying boat (1920s)
Farman F.51 - maritime reconnaissance flying boat (1922)
Farman F.60 Torp - torpedo carrying floatplane version (1920s)
Farman F.60 Goliath bomber/airliner (1919)
Farman F.70 - single engined 6-passenger transport (1920)
Farman F.121 Jabiru - 4-engined airliner (1923)
Farman F.166 - torpedo bomber floatplane (1928)
Farman F.167 - torpedo bomber floatplane (1928)
Farman F.168 - torpedo bomber floatplane (1928)
Farman F.170 Jabiru - single-engined airliner (1925)
Farman F.222 - 2-engined high-wing heavy bomber (1932)
Farman F.223 - 2-engined high-wing heavy bomber (1937)
Farman F.271 - bomber/torpedo bomber floatplane version (1934)
Farman F 402 - high-wing 3-seater utility aircraft (1933)
Farman NC.470 - six-seat trainer and coastal reconnaissance floatplane (1938)
Farman NC.471 - six-seat trainer and coastal reconnaissance floatplane (1938)

 

[Jemiba]

The NC.470 and 471 were in fact built, when Farman and Hanriot had merged to SNCAC
in 1936, so it's a bit doubtful, if they can be seen as Farman aircraft,I think. ???

 

[AM]

hi all

 

[hesham]

Hi,


F.410 was a combat scout twin engined seaplane,later became SNCAC NC.410
F.440 was twin engined medium bomber project,intended to compete LeO-45
in B4 or 1934 competition.
F.311 & F.320 probably developed from F.300,as transport aircraft projects.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCAC_NC.4-10
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,12572.msg124266.html#msg124266

 

[c460]

Hi all,
Here are the tables of Farman aircraft and engines from "Les Avions Farman" by Jean Liron (out of print). They include the named unbuilt projects.

 

[c460]

I forgot to attach the engine table.

 

[hesham]

Wow,excellent C460,


thank you very very much.

 

[Stargazer]

Absolutely awesome! Thanks for sharing, c460!

 

[Maveric]

You made my day, c460! :-*

 

[hesham]

From Onera archive,

what was those designations,please notice the years ?.

 

[Apophenia]

... what was those designations,please notice the years ?.

Good question. Odd designations which, by 1939-40 should at least have had 'NC' prefixes.

And why S.G.F.Aé ? It looks something like 'Société Générale de Farman Aéronautique'. Was that ever a thing? And it is too early to be anticipating the Société Anonyme des Usines Farman.

If these were casual references to the SNCAC Billancourt facility, surely ONERA would have just listed it as 'Avions Farman'.

 

[hesham]

From Onera archive,

what was those designations,please notice the years ?.

And may the FA 200 glider was the same aircraft of early 1920,or developed from it?!.

 

[Apophenia]

And may the FA 200 glider was the same aircraft of early 1920,or developed from it?!.

Yeah, I had wondered about an engineless variant of the early '30s tourer which reused that number. But that raises two questions:

1 - That tourer was designated F.200. Why would a glider derivative be designated FA 200 rather than, say, F.210 (the powered tourers having 'filled up' the F.200-to-F.209 designation slots).

2 - Ignoring that designation conundrum, assume that the engine of the F.20x series is replaced by a third crew position in a glider. What possible purpose could such an ungainly glider have served in 1939 France?

 

[hesham]

Dear Apophenia,

I meant this one.

 

[Stargazer]

I've been diving deep into the Farman models, and thought it might be interesting to recapitulate here the remaining mysteries and inconsistencies, as well as provide some information previously unshared in this thread:

GOLIATH mysteries:

1. According to the CEV (Centre d'Essais en Vol) at Brétigny, the Goliath line originated with THREE distinct prototypes: one FF 50, first flown in July 1918, and powered by two 275 hp Lorraine 8 Bd engines; and two FF 60 (the first of which flew in October 1918), powered by two 260 hp Salmson 9 Z types. However, I haven't been able to find a photo of the FF 50. There are a few photos of the F 50 P, a passenger conversion of several wartime F 50 Bn.2 bombers (three of which appear on registers as F-AECK, F-GEAV, and F-HMFO); could the FF 50 be related to the F 50 "Limousines", or was it an entirely different thing? It appeared in the same year, used the same two engine types...
   
   
2. The production version of the FF 60 was designated F 60 (the "FF" prefix for Farman Frères was short-lived and only used for FF 50, FF 60 and FF 65 prototypes). However, after the FF60 appeared, and before the F 60, Farman is supposed to have built in 1919 a prototype designated F 60AV and nicknamed the "Petit Goliath" (Little Goliath), powered by a single 260 hp Salmson Cu 9 Z engine. It failed to interest the military and was quickly forgotten... so much so that I haven't been able to find any photo of it (the only "Petit Goliath" that exists in pictures is the later F 130 T prototype of 1922). Is there a bona fide source for the F 60AV?

The elusive "200" prototype series:
In the early 1920s, Farman set aside a series of model numbers for special experimental airplanes that did not fit within the regular model designations, although they sometimes duplicated them:

• The first of these was the F 200 T.2 of 1923 [F-ESAN], an experimental tourism aircraft with very thick wing that didn't handle very well.
• Prototypes "201" to "203" have not been identified.
• The so-called "David 204" ("David" being the original name of the FF 65), was an F 65 flown extensively between Nov. 1921 and Jan. 1924, but it is not known how much it differed from the regular model.
• Prototype "205" was briefly test-flown in Jan./Feb. 1922 but no detail is known.
• The HF 206 "Moustique I" was the former "Moustique" prototype of 1919 after its winspan was reduced.
• Prototype "207" was a tourism aircraft modified from an F 65 Sport, with modifications to its structure and landing gear, and flown notably at the 1921 Nice air meet. It used a 60 hp Anzani engine.
• Prototype "208" is said to have been another "Sport Farman" tourism aircraft flown at the 1921 Le Bourget air meet. It used a 60 hp Le Rhône 6 Z (read further down about the confusion over its registration code).
• Prototype "209" was yet another modified "Sport" [F-ADFM] in 1923. It was further modified in 1931-33 as the F 209 single-seater with modified structure.
• The so-called "David monoplane 210" was a former "Sport" modified in 1924 into a parasol type by mating an F 65 fuselage with a rectangular section from a "Goliath" wing, owing it the nickname "La carte postale" (the postcard) at Farman. Two more "210" were produced in 1924 as F 210 types, one being shipped to the United States. After being off the radar for a while, the first 210 reappeared in 1929 as an F 210, now as a shoulder-wing type. The entire "210" series used the Anzani 6 A-2 engine.

Seemingly undesignated types:

• The first "Moustique" of 1919, which used a 30 hp ABC Scorpion engine.
• The 1922 glider version of the "Moustique".
• The "Aviette" developed in 1923 from the above, along with the glider variant of it.
• The special version of the "Sport" with increased upper wing area for the Zenith safety aircraft competition of 1920.
• The same aircraft transformed as a glider for the Combegrasse competition; its forward cockpit had to be moved to make up for the lack of engine.
• The so-called "Type G.L." flying boat, a license-built Georges Levy G.L.40 (Lévy-Le Pen HB.2) flying boat produced for the French Navy and powered by a 300 hp Renault 12 Fe (V-12) engine. A version with an enclosed cockpit was advertised later on but likely not produced.
• The 1921 "Farman-Blanchard" two-seat biplane torpedo bomber of wooden construction powered by a 450 hp Renault engine.
• The 1922 "Farman-Blanchard" (HB.5) biplane flying boat.
• The very first "Super Goliath" of 1922, often refered to simply as the "Farman Bn.4". It was powered by two 400 hp Lorraine 12 Db engines, and came two years before the F 140 "Super Goliath".
• A 1940s two-seater sesquiplane tourism aircraft with two 40 hp Train engines mounted in tandem over wing.

Odd and non-standard designations:

• The last "aviette" type produced by Farman in 1924 was the F 21 "Moustique II". That designation makes no sense in any of the systems.
• The "Jabiru" transport was developed through a series of prototypes designated F-3 X , F-3 bis and F-4 X. Not only these do not fit in anywhere, but they are also illogical since the F-3 had four engines, the F-3 bis had two... while the F-4 had only three!
• Curiouser and curiouser... there was an F-4 S but it was a Goliath, not a Jabiru... and an F-5 X project, which became the F 150 bis!
• The designation F 500 for the "Monitor" (Stampe-Renard SR.7A) is said to have been apocryphal, yet the following versions received the designations F 510, F 520 and F 521...
• F 260 to 267 were never allocated, as F 268/269 were simply carry-over designations from F 168/169.
• The use of the lone F 368 designation for a development of the F 168 is confusing since the type has nothing to do with the F 360 and F 361 tourism aircraft, which came out at about the same time!

Duplicate designations:

• When the Farman brothers joined forces to created Farman Frères in 1915, the HF 30 "Horace" fighter was still in full swing. So how come the designation F 30 B was applied to a completely different tractor biplane? The theory that this may have been a Maurice Farman type doesn't hold water to me, since the MF list stopped at MF 12, and the subsequent numbers that have been quoted in several sources are usually the result of confusion with the HF list.
  
  
• With apparent disregard for the F 50 Bn.2 bomber and its F 50 P commercial adaptation, Farman developed two maritime reconnaissance flying boat types in 1920: the F 50 pusher and the F 51 tractor, both using two 275 hp Lorraine 8 Bd engines. The F 50 may not have gone past the drawing board, but the latter was definitely built, flown in 1922, and after being rejected by the French Navy, was sold to Brazil. A commercial version was also briefly considered.
  
  
• F 65 was the "David", better known as the "Sport", or "Sport-Farman", which was produced throughout the first half of the 1920s. However, F 65 was also the designation of the torpedo bomber version of the "Goliath"...
  
  
• The single-engined 1922 bomber prototype frequently refered to as the "Farman B.2" was designated F 120. That designation, however, was reused the following year for the F 120 T "Jabiru", though it was a very different aircraft.
  
  
• Similarly, the 1924 sesquiplane fighter prototype casually designated as the "Farman A.2", and nicknamed the "Avion Tango" was in fact designated F 160. Four years later, the designation F 160 was applied to a modernized version of the F 60 Goliath.
  
  
• The ONERA archives mention model testing of a 1939 glider designated FA 200 for the S.G.F.Aé. That acronym stood for "Société Générale de Fabrication Aéronautique", which was another name for the Farman company in the late 1930s. Not only "FA" does not correspond to anything known in the Farman nomenclature, but that would have been the third use of the number 200 after the 1920 experimental F 200 monoplane and the 1929 F 200 parasol...
  
  
• Two distinct projects received the designation F 250: an unbuilt 1930 cantilever monoplane transport on floats with 32 seats, and a 1931 five-seater commercial monoplane transport prototype.
  
  
• Before it was used to designate the "Monitor", the F 500 designation had been given in 1937 to an unbuilt "Grand Tourisme" project powered by a 190 hp Farman 9 Ecr engine.

More mysteries:

• Some sources indicate that there wasn't just an F 480 "Alizé" parasol plane produced in 12 examples in 1936, but also a prior F 460 "Alizé" produced in 10 examples. Convenient though it may be to fill the "460" slot of our list, the information demands caution, not just because no photos or detailed info of such an aircraft exists on the web, in books or in civil registers, but also because both the F 460 and F 480 are said to have been used in Spain: the "F 460" was allegedly built for the training schools of the Spanish Republican Government in the Murcia area, while the F 480 are said to have transferred to Spain in 1937. Since only [F-AOXQ] shows up on registers, one can assume the other eleven F 480 were indeed sent abroad... but 10 more aircraft? And no photos or info? Seems more like a typo to me... The fact that the only photo associated with the "F 460 Alizé" shows a completely different, low wing monoplane sure doesn't help, either!
  
  
• What were the F 100, F 330, and F 340 types? What were the unbuilt F 164, F 214, F 215 versions supposed to be? I can't find any mention of such projects anywhere. Also, there seems to be no explanation for F 452 to 454 missing from the "Moustique" versions.
  
  
• According to registers, the temporary experimental civil registration F-ESAM was used no less than three times, and every time for a totally different Farman type... First for an F 170 (later registered as [F-AIBR]); then for an F 65 "Goliath" torpedo bomber prototype (later registered as [F-AJIL]); and also for an F 90 biplane transport. But then, what about that photo of an unknown shoulder-wing single-engine prototype carrying the same registration F-ESAM, which is none of the above three types?! The excellent website http://www.crezan.net/ describes the special prototype "208" as a "Sport-Farman F-ESAM with Rhône 9Z engine, possibly using the structure and very likely the landing gear of the "207".

 

[hesham]

Well,so existing respond,

and to answer all of them in one post,it's impossible,but we can say;

- Farman FF.50,please see;

https://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/le_farman_goliath.pdf

- About Farman-Blanchard,they were belonged to Blanchard

- Farman F.460 Alize was wrong designation as I know,there is only F.480
Alize

 

[hesham]

Two distinct projects received the designation F 250: an unbuilt 1930 cantilever monoplane transport on floats with 32 seats, and a 1931 five-seater commercial monoplane transport prototype

Before it was used to designate the "Monitor", the F 500 designation had been given in 1937 to an unbuilt "Grand Tourisme" project powered by a 190 hp Farman 9 Ecr engine.

What were the F 100, F 330, and F 340 types? What were the unbuilt F 164, F 214, F 215 versions supposed to be? I can't find any mention of such projects anywhere. Also, there seems to be no explanation for F 452 to 454 missing from the "Moustique" versions.

At first,for the F.213 and F.214,also F.452 to F.454,many French companies used to avoid this numbers as un-logic behavior,and only after xx1 or xx2,they jumped up
to xx5,such as Morange-Saulnier and Bloch.

We can make some speculations about missing numbers and one of them be sensible to assume;

F.100 ?,was unknown,but may it was a three engined day bomber project of 1922,
which had a blended fuselage with wings.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/farman-and-sncac-projects.5969/page-2#post-373087

F.260 ? was unknown,but may the writer mixed between it and F.250,so he thought
both of them were F.250,but we can suppose the first was F.250,and the second
may was F.260,

F.330 & F.340 ? were unknown,but Farman coulde de involve in two competitions
at early 1930s,for airliner and transport seaplane,no confirm

F.460 ? was unknown,but may it was the same as Farman X, a tourist aircraft
project,but it was less than 1940,may it was from 1936/38.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/farman-and-sncac-projects.5969/page-3#post-490372

 

[hesham]

The very first "Super Goliath" of 1922, often refered to simply as the "Farman Bn.4". It was powered by two 400 hp Lorraine 12 Db engines, and came two years before the F 140 "Super Goliath".

By the way,there was earlier BN.4 of 1921,differed completely from these concepts,
but it has no designation number ?,it's in my new book.