Early German Projects & Prototypes

Tuizentfloot

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Unfortunately I have no photographs which could be positively identified as the Möwe 1, 3 or 5. It is not always easy to distinguish between the Möwe types.

In the meantime I found an error in my yesterday's answer caused by cut and paste… The glider Weih was not built in Rathenow, but in Stölln (not far away from Rathenow) by a wheelwright Beutler.
 

hesham

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My dear Tuizentfloot,

a last two questions about Geest;

1- the D-Type called Einsitzer Jagdflugzeug,right ?

2- there was a design called motorflug,was it a Möwe I ?
 

Harry64

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Hello Hesham,

have a look on page 6 of this pdf...this must bee Möwe I

http://www.flugsport-stoelln.de/inc/downloads/Historie-EDOR_4auflage_2013.pdf

greets

Harry
 

Tuizentfloot

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My dear hesham, Einsitzer Jagdflugzeug simply means "single seat fighter". I never saw a designation for this biplane, but its nickname was Doppel-Möwe (Double Seagull).

And Motorflug simply means "powered flight". The Möwe 1 was indeed the first powered airplane by Geest, but I wonder if the word Motorflug was ever used as a designation. I only know the name Möwe. And when other Möwen were built it became Möwe 1.

Thanks for the pdf Harry 64! Indeed the Möwe 1. A good article!

And on p. 5 there is a photograph of the 1910 glider built by Gustav Lilienthal. See the inscription Dr. Geest Gleitflieger Mai 1910 ("Dr. Geest sailplane May 1910").
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Tuizentfloot.
 

hesham

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My dear Tuizentfloot,

please can you speak about Goedecker and his designs ?,I know only this aircraft
 

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Harry64

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Hello hesham

scroll down here in this PDF

https://aopa.de/DE/upload/pdf/PDFLetter/2001-Letter_3/Letter_3-2001-26-34.pdf

Greets Harry
 

hesham

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Thank you Harry,it's good helpful.
 

Tuizentfloot

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Jakob Goedecker (1882-1957) was an engineer who had studied mechanical engineering and shipbuilding at the Technical University of Aachen (among others under prof. Hugo Junkers).

Since 1902 Goedecker had built and tested model aircraft.

In October 1909 he founded the Jakob Goedecker Flugzeugwerke in Niederwalluf, where in an empty shed he had begun aircraft construction in August of the same year. In April 1910 he began flight tests at the military parade ground Großer Sand, Mainz-Gonsenheim, and settled in a hangar there.

In World War I Goedecker did only repairs of military aircraft.

After the war he went into the automobile business as a coachbuilder.

In the twenties and thirties Goedecker worked on an ornithopter, called Urvogel. Without success. He was also active in the Deutsche Forschungsanstalt für Segelflug

GOEDECKER TYPES

Monoplane Sailplane 1909: first construction in Niederwalluf.

Monoplane 1909/10: 30 hp Anzani; short hops in 1910.

Monoplane 1910 (the so-called Goedecker-Taube): 50 hp Argus; Taube-like single seater. Served more than a year as a training aircraft (Goedecker had also a flying school with among others Anthony Fokker as instructor).

Sturmvogel (1911): 70 hp Daimler, later 100 hp Dixi; Taube-like two-seater. Participated in the 1911 Herbstmanövern in the Taunus, piloted by Anthony Fokker.

Stahltaube (1912): 100 hp Dixi; aluminium fuselage.

Flying boat (1912): first flying boat, wooden construction with 70 hp Daimler.

Flying boat (1912): second flying boat, also with 70 hp Daimler.

Militärtaube (1913/14): 95 hp Daimler, developed for the military.

B-Typ (1914): B-type, tested as single-bay and two-bay biplane. Good performance, but not accepted by the Idflieg. Sometimes called B I, but doubtful if this is correct.

In all, until 1914 Goedecker built 32 airplanes of his own designs.

COOPERATION WITH FOKKER

Fokker, who worked for Goedecker as a testpilot and instructor, had his Spinnen (from the Spinne II onwards) built by Goedecker. Goedecker had the technical knowledge that Fokker lacked.

Even after Fokker had settled in Johannisthal Goedecker continued the construction of Spinnen. They were sent in parts to Johannisthal and erected there by Fokker.

In all Goedecker built 25 Spinnen.
 

hesham

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Excellent my dear Tuizentfloot,

many great thanks,and I know he designed a flying boat,but never seen it before.
 

dan_inbox

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Tuizentfloot said:
Einsitzer Jagdflugzeug simply means "single seat fighter". I never saw a designation for this biplane, but its nickname was Doppel-Möwe (Double Seagull).
I have seen it called also "D-Typ Doppel-Möwe".
Have not seen anything about A B or C types, though.
 

hesham

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And here is a Goedecker Amphibian flying boat.

http://flyingmachines.ru/Site2/Crafts/Craft28676.htm
 

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richard

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dan_inbox said:
Tuizentfloot said:
Einsitzer Jagdflugzeug simply means "single seat fighter". I never saw a designation for this biplane, but its nickname was Doppel-Möwe (Double Seagull).
I have seen it called also "D-Typ Doppel-Möwe".
Have not seen anything about A B or C types, though.
In this case , D type is for "single seat fighter"
 

Jemiba

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During the beginning of WW I aircraft not specifically built for military purposes were often used as
recce, or maybe even as "fighter" aircraft (with handheld weapons maybe), so differentiation may
be difficult. Nevertheless, most types mentioned in the last posts were actually from pre-WW I times
and had no military relevance, many falling into the "pioneer" category. So I split the "German WW1
Fighters and Recce Aircraft Prototypes and Projects" thread (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,22511.msg286736.html#msg286736)
and would recommend to use that one solely for dedicated fighter and recce types.
Other aircraft up to, say, 1914/15, without specific application should be posted here.
 

hesham

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That's right my dear Jemiba,

I always forget it.
 

dan_inbox

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richard said:
In this case , D type is for "single seat fighter"
... as per the Idflieg designation system, indeed. You are completely right, I had overlooked this.
Thank you Richard.
 

hesham

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Hi,

as I know,Naglo Werft designed and built trainer biplane,I don't know the period,
maybe before WWI ?,has anyone more Info about that ?.
 

hesham

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Hi,

for Jeannin,we only know four airplane,a monoplane of 1911,followed by Stahltaube
monoplane of 1912,also a racer monoplane of 1912,and later a recce aircraft of 1914,
had he a more airplanes ?.
 

richard

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The best source about Jeannin's life is (for me) the "Die Jeannin-Stahltaube A.180/14" by Marian Krzyzan & Holger Steinle , published in 1989 by Mittler .

They described 12 types , 5 around the "Eindecker" (an improved modified monoplane Nieuport) and 7 around the later "Stahltaube" .

In the summer 1914 , after a trial for sexual relations with a minor girl , Jeannin left his company , which became later the "National Flugzeug-Werke GmbH" a subsidiary of D.F.W. (to make short ... all the details are in the book ...)
The biplanes were built after Jeannin left his company and are generally described as NFW designs .
 

hesham

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Many thanks to you my dear Richard,

and what about LVG D 4 recce biplane,which appeared in 1913 (not D IV).
 

Tuizentfloot

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1. Jeannin

Basically there were three main types of aircraft built by Emile Jeannin, of which a number of subvariants appeared:
• the 1911 Eindecker
• the 1912 Taube
• the 1913 Stahltaube

I have my doubts concerning the so-called Jeannin biplane (Gray/Thetford, p. 429). It is not of Jeannin style (a biplane with swept wings), and apparently it was designed by Karl Bomhard, who worked for Union and built there a number of other swept winged airplanes.

In 1915 the Emile Jeannin Flugzeugbau GmbH was taken over by National-Flugzeugwerke GmbH (itself created earlier by DFW as a subcontractor).

Emile Jeannin was an Alsatian by origin, born in the then German Mühlhausen i. Elsaß (now the Franch Mulhouse). He had always been a colourful character. He was a very good aviator, but also a star. At the beginning of WWI he got a severe sentence for an affair with a minor girl. But he wasn't the only one in Germany at that time. Ellery von Gorissen also had a lot of trouble for an affair with a minor boy… But let us focus on airplanes :)

2. Naglo

Concerning an eventual Naglo training biplane I have no information. Interesting. Where did you find the information?

3. LVG D4

D4 was the company designation of the LVG B.I
 

hesham

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Many thanks to you my dear Tuizentfloot.
 

hesham

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Hi,

was there any more airplanes designed by Max Schüler ?;

http://www.spiegel.de/einestages/fliegen-vor-100-jahren-max-schueler-flugpionier-der-ersten-stunde-a-951344.html
 

richard

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At least 10 built...
- Dörhofer biplane
- Huth circular biplane
- Lendner monoplane
- Loutzkoy monoplane
- Biplane with cabin
- Highwing monoplane
- Monoplane ( bought by Harlan . At the origin of the successful series of Harlan monoplanes)
- Monoplane
- Monoplane
- Monoplane
 

hesham

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Excellent my dear Richard,many thanks.
 

hesham

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richard said:
At least 10 built...
- Dörhofer biplane
- Huth circular biplane
- Lendner monoplane
- Loutzkoy monoplane
- Biplane with cabin
- Highwing monoplane
- Monoplane ( bought by Harlan . At the origin of the successful series of Harlan monoplanes)
- Monoplane
- Monoplane
- Monoplane
And from Flugzeug Classic 8/2016.
 

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Tuizentfloot

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The enumeration by Richard is correct. Some more information:

Max Schüler built his airplanes in Chemnitz (during his study at the Technische Hochschule), in his father's engine workshop in Berlin, and from 1910 in Johannisthal, where he had created the Max Schüler Aeroplan-Fabrik.

First designs

  • "Drachenflieger"
His first design from 1909. Three seater biplane with cabin (!). One 30 hp engine of own construction (from components of motocycle engines). Unable to fly.

  • Eindecker 1910
Inspired by Santos-Dumont and Grade with 16 hp engine of own construction. Short flight and crash in January 1910.

Designs by others, built on order

  • Lendner Eindecker
Designed and ordered by Leo Lendner. Single engine monoplane with push and pull props. Had to be modified before it could fly. Lendner crashed to his death in it in 1913.

  • Dörhöfer Doppeldecker
Designed by Philipp Dörhöfer, who worked at Flugwerk Deutschland in Aachen, but let Schüler build his design. No more information on eventual tests.

  • Huth Kreis-Doppeldecker
Biplane designed by Dr. Fritz Huth. One of the curious creatures of those days. Nicknamed "Huth-Krempe" (a German wordplay).

  • Loutzkoy 1910 (Геликоплан)
The article in Flugzeug Classic, Aug. 2016, confirms what Lange says in his Typenhandbuch that the first Loutzkoy was built by Schüler and the second (the twin engine Taube) by Rumpler (see my posting of 30 Oct 2016 in Designations Systems / Daimler Motoren-Gesellschaft).

Own designs

Schüler had constantly financial problems, and to realise his next project (a monoplane) he got financial support from the entrepreneur Wolfgang Harlan, with the aeroplanes as guarantee. This was the end of Schülers' career as an aircraft builder. He couldn't repay the money, and all was taken over by Harlan, the beginning of an also short career.

  • Eindecker 1910
Monoplane with 50 hp Argus. Crashed immediately.

  • Eindecker 1911
Modified version of the former.

  • Eindecker 1911
With 50 hp Escher.

  • Eindecker 1912
With 120 hp Argus and steel tube construction of the fuselage.

The Max Schüler Aeroplan-Fabrik as the first in Johannistal to close the doors. Max Schüler himself began a new and successful career as a pilot for different companies. Before 1914 he became well known for a number of spectacular flights (see the three last photographs in the posting by hesham).
 

hesham

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Amazing analysis my dear Tuizentfloot,many thanks.
 

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The first photo from Flugzeug Classic don't show the the ED 1910 , "father" of the successful Harlan monoplanes designed by Grulich , but the ED 1911 powered by a 50 hp Escher engine .

I can't identify the monoplane shown on the second picture (at the left of the "Harlan-Grulich" one) : any idea ?
 

hesham

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richard said:
The first photo from Flugzeug Classic don't show the the ED 1910 , "father" of the successful Harlan monoplanes designed by Grulich , but the ED 1911 powered by a 50 hp Escher engine .

I can't identify the monoplane shown on the second picture (at the left of the "Harlan-Grulich" one) : any idea ?
My dear Richard,

maybe the same aircraft under construction ?.
 

hesham

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Tuizentfloot said:
Dr. Waldemar Geest (1879-1944) was a medical doctor with a great interest in aviation, building model aircraft since 1896, and later gliders and motorised airplanes.

His first model aircraft of 1896 was of the flying wing type. Het continued to experiment with model aircraft and took a patent on his "Möwe" (Seagull) wing.

GEEST GLIDERS

1906 Glider: first full-scale construction by Geest, built by him during his medical training. Only short hops.

1908 Glider: wing area 11 m². Built in München in collaboration with Alois Wolfmüller.

1910 Glider: built by Gustav Lilienthal in Berlin. First flight in May 1910, crashed after a number of flights.

Weih (Harrier): his last glider (1910), built in Rathenow.

GEEST AIRPLANES

Möwe 1 (1910): two seater monoplane with 50 hp Argus engine. Built in Rathenow by a wheelwright Wietz. Short flights.

Möwe 2 (1911): with Gnome engine. Built by LVG in Johannisthal.

Möwe 3 (1912): with 50 hp Argus engine. Built by Wietz in Rathenow.

Möwe 4 (1912): with Arugus engine and arrow shaped tailplane. Built by Wietz in Rathenow. Very succesful.

Möwe 5 (1912): with 100 hp Argus engine and ailerons. Built by Wietz in Rathenow. Waldemar Geest had a flying school with the Möwe 3, 4 and 5.

Möwe 6 (1914): with 100 hp Daimler engine. Built by Richard Goetze KG in Treptow. First flight 17 June 1914. The wing was some kind of mix between his Möwe and the Taube, and had ailerons. A number were bought by the military.

D-Typ Doppel-Möwe (1917): experimental biplane fighter, built by Aviatik.

The Doppel-Möwe was the end of his aviation career. In 1917 Geest became a military doctor in a field hospital, and continued a medical practice after the war. But his interest is aviation did subsist, albeit with model aircraft.
Here is a motor glider designed by Geest and Wolfmüller;

This German monoplane is mostly identified as the Geest-Wolfmüller Motorflugzeug. Development of the machine started in December 1909. It was powered by a 12 hp engine driving a two-bladed tractor propeller. The undercarriage was a tricycle construction with a strong skid in the middle of the front wheels.
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61468
 

Tuizentfloot

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One of the experiments by Alois Wolfmüller. Wolfmüller was one of the great names in the early German aviation world, since the days of Otto Lilienthal. In 1894 he bought a Lilienthal-built Normal-Segelapparat, and in 1895 he built his first own glider. He was active until ca. 1910, and stopped only due to financial problems.
 

hesham

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Amazing Info my dear Tuizentfloot,thanks.
 

burunduk

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Dear colleagues!

In "Popular Aviation" № 9 1931 p. 23 the photo of the small German monoplane was published. I can't identify the plane. Couldn't you help me? Thanks.
 

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Maveric

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Looks a little bit like G.M.G. I or II.
 

burunduk

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Dear Maveric, thanks for your reply.

But it definitely isn't GMG 1 or 2. The feature of GMG is the pilot's cabin inside the fuselage, under the wing. But here one sees usual cockpit with the pilot head above the fuselage.

Here are pictures of GMG 2 (above) and 1 (below).
 

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Maveric

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The only aircraft I found was the Martens MM.3 "Hans Huckebein II".
Not identical with your pic, but very similar.

There are only two other type in this configuration and with a powerplant of 14hp.
Hoppe G.H.1 with 14hp Villiers.
Koch F.K.3 "Friedrichshain" with 14hp Blackburn.

I have no pics of the last two types. (pics are welcome!)
 

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burunduk

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Maveric, thank you.

This plane looks really very similar exept small details like wheels and wingtips and stabilizer tips, but it might be changed during testing of airplane or later. So, MM-3 is really good candidate. Don't you know the date (or year) of the first flight and size-weight-performance data?

Und ist Herr Hoppe the same man, who performed high-attidute flights on Ju.49?
 
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