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Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY (TEMPORARY)

TomcatViP

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More news in the French press on a potential Rafale deal in India (diverging somewhat to what is reported in India - see above) :
[L]'Elysée mène actuellement en Inde une offensive diplomatique sans précédent pour décrocher un « package deal » de 5 milliards d’euros. Un package qui porterait sur la commande de 36 Rafale supplémentaires, de 6 avions ravitailleurs, et de plus d’une centaine d’hélicoptères Panther.
---------------------------

[T] he Elysee Palace is currently leading an unprecedented diplomatic offensive in India to secure a "package deal" of 5 billion euro that would cover the order of 36 additional Rafale, 6 A330MRTT tanker planes and more than a hundred Panther helicopters.


 
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Deltafan

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Well, it's great that school are [not] closed in France because [otherwise] kids would have [an even] harder time understanding arithmetics with Macron's aircraft sales as a reference...
One day 6x=1.5 and another 36 of the same X makes 3 (counted in billion dollars).

;)

Edited [abc] to reflect present situation
If "6x" is for Greece, it's the first Rafale contract for Greece.

As said above, it would be the second one for India and what is already installed/bought in/by India will not require redundancy.

And the terms of the contract may be different from one country to another.

In any case, no one signs a contract if they do not find it interesting (and I don't think that "Macron" is imposing a price on private company Dassault for export sales ...).
 
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TomcatViP

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The Armée de l'Air has brought four Rafale fighters, two Airbus A400M military transport aircraft and an Airbus A330MRTT Phénix tanker transport aircraft to the exercise. The Indian Air Force participates with Rafale, Mirage 2000, Su-30MKI-30, Il-78MKI tanker, A-50EhI AWACS and ERJ145SM AEW&C aircraft.

 

Bhurki

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EsJ2TlIXcAIy0q6.png

Rafales in the 'bundle' deal aforementioned in the thread are being supposed to be of F4 standard.

Does someone know about the tentative timelines for first flight, IOC and the developmental progress on F4 variant (funds released yet)?
 

Deltafan

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Rafales in the 'bundle' deal aforementioned in the thread are being supposed to be of F4 standard.

Does someone know about the tentative timelines for first flight, IOC and the developmental progress on F4 variant (funds released yet)?
1.9 billion € foreseen to develop the F4 standard program. Validation of the standard is foreseen for 2024. The first 30 for France are foreseen to be ordered in 2023 and to be delivered from 2027.

Among other articles (sorry, in French)

Le standard « F4 » du Rafale est lancé - Press kits de Dassault Aviation (dassault-aviation.com)

Nouveau Rafale F4 :10 chiffres pour tout savoir de l’avion de combat (sudouest.fr)
 
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TomcatViP

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Jemiba

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@ TomcatViP
The snippet of that article, that can be accessed without registration, don't give the
the mentioned details,making it unsuitable as a proof for those claims.
So the post was edited, the tone was borderline at best anyway, and not for the first time
in this thread.
PLease consider this a warning.
 

TomcatViP

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@ TomcatViP
The snippet of that article, that can be accessed without registration, don't give the
the mentioned details,making it unsuitable as a proof for those claims.
So the post was edited, the tone was borderline at best anyway, and not for the first time
in this thread.
PLease consider this a warning.
This is not an edit @Jemiba : my post simply underlined and translated the part of that news story that hadn't been yet discussed.

Removing it simply condemn other members that don't speak french to be deprived of that information.

Moreover you are encouraging the bullying posture of those individuals. Frankly, It doesn't help
 

Jemiba

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I edited/removed the interpretation, that wasn't replicable without knowledge of the full article.
So, not only non-French speaking members are "deprived of that information", and the small part
accessible (18 % of the full article) can hardly be the basis for your claims.
But you're right, such a snippet isn't suitable for proving anything, and as long, as the full wording
isn't accessible to every participant in this discussion, that article can hardly be the basis for any kind
of claim, either way. Post removed completely.
But as the thread has gone into a quite different direction from the original title, seriously lapped
into politics, and provoked obviously unstoppable discussions, maybe it's better to turn it into a
"NEWS ONLY" thread, at least for a while, until emotions have calmed down a bit !
 
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H_K

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I would like to apologize to @TomcatViP, I was able to pull the article using Google Translate. It says:

« Finally, the IAF could also acquire a fleet of 6 Airbus A330 MRTTs to increase its refueling and projection capacities in the region. Discussions have also progressed a lot on the subject and India is studying in particular France's proposals which would consist of renting to it, or ceding to it 6 copies currently in service with the Air Force and Space as soon as they cross the age of five. New Phénix would then be ordered from Airbus for the needs of the French defense. »


Although I remain skeptical of the accuracy of this statement as this is not exactly what the Hindustan Times reported, it may be true. Rather than jump to conclusions I think it best to wait for more details to come out.
 

Deltafan

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From French Minister of Defense, Florence Parly, on Twitter :

Florence Parly sur Twitter : "Je serai lundi prochain 25 janvier à Athènes pour la signature du contrat de vente de 18 Rafale à la Grèce. Pour la première fois, notre avion de combat est vendu à un pays européen. #EuropeDéfense #Fildéfense" / Twitter


I will be next Monday January 25 in Athens for the signing of the sales contract for 18 Rafale to Greece. For the first time, our fighter plane is sold to an European country.
 

galgot

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Signed :
 

helmutkohl

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welcome to Rafale club, Hellas

Rafale-aux-couleurs-grecques-840x480.jpg

Ehuv0hBWAAI-2HC.jpg

greekrafalec.jpg
 
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Deltafan

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New order of 12 more Rafale for France to replace the 12 used sold to Greece.

View: https://twitter.com/VincentLamigeon/status/1355076321156673540?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1355076321156673540%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.air-defense.net%2Fforum%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FVincentLamigeon%2Fstatus%2F1355076321156673540

French Minister of Defense Florence Parly announced this morning on the Dassault d´Argonay site the order for 12 Rafale for the French Air and Space Force, replacing the 12 aircraft sold to Greece. Delivery 2025 (Interview French weekly Les Echos)
 
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TomcatViP

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Right from the horse mouth (sad to see my earlier post deleted when it had exactly this information) :
Le prix d’un Rafale "tout équipé, c’est une centaine de millions d’euros", selon le PDG de Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier.
—---------------------------
The price for a Rafale "with all its equipments" is something like an hundred millions of euro said Dassault Aviation CEO Éric Trappier

 
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TomcatViP

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As part of European defence major Thales’ Offsets commitments under the Rafale India contract Indian Defence PSU Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) has manufactured T/R (transmit/receive) modules for the RBE2 radar on the Dassault Aviation Rafale and delivered them to Thales.
 

Deltafan

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Used Rafale F-3R finalists in Croatia, with new F-16V. Decision for April (sorry, nothing in English for the moment):


 
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TomcatViP

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From the second link:
An even greater mystery is the French offer. While Rafale is the preferred option, according to unofficial information sourced from Croatian Air Force circles and from other bidders, no details of the French bid have been released. The price, weapons package, or possible economic benefits are unknown.
...
Seems also the battle has been sharp with a potential contest of the results by Saab.
 

Deltafan

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First link, under the title (for the "unknown" price of the Rafale)

Decision in April: Rafale or new F-16
Purchases are financially heavy, ranging from 930 million euros for used aircraft (Rafale) to 1.6 billion dollars for new aircraft (F-16)


Second link

The winning auctions (Rafale AND F-16) are the most mysterious. Lockheed Martin has reportedly offered cooperation to six Croatian companies, but it is not known which companies are involved or what it would be. Americans generally only talk about including them in Lockheed's global supply chain.

The details of the French bid are unknown by the journalists. But it's not written that it's unknown by the Croatian government.

Moreover in the second link too :

Croatian representatives announced that the fighters' combat capabilities, financial issues, timeliness of supply and the broader impact of supplier choices on Croatian foreign policy as a whole would be taken into account. That could have been the main advantage of the French offering.
First of all: it is about the supply of very modern fighters.
Second, because these are used aircraft that already exist physically, they can be delivered quickly.
Third, France is one of the two most important countries in the European Union and has a large arms industry, and therefore has the potential to offer many advantages to Croatian industry and politics.
All of this, however, remains in the realm of speculation.
 
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TomcatViP

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Not to be too nipsy but how many airframe are there? I know that something was posted early on but not sure if we have seen a firm number yet (beside of the incredible amount).
Allegedly France offer includes an entire squadron which coud be, again, 12 used airframe pulled out of AdlAE* ranks.

Also, regarding the controversy and the potential complaint by Saab:
A campaign in Brussels

Over recent, semi-official information has been circulating in the public eye, which no one wants to officially comment on, and that's that the Swedes allegedly aren't intending to give up with their Gripen aircraft offer to Croatia easily because they're convinced that the Croatian tender has been rigged.

Namely, the Swedes, according to that source, are allegedly offering Croatia a loan with zero percent interest and a two-year grace period to pay the first installment of the loan. Reportedly, they're ready to lower their current price of 900 million euros for the entire package (aircraft, equipment, weapons, training and logistics). On the other hand, according to that same source, a campaign is planned to be launched in Brussels due to the alleged promotion of one bidder by HDZ.

Alleged ''proof'' of this is offered by the fact that the ruling HDZ newspaper has, in the past, published unsigned ''fan articles'', for which it isn't entirely clear whether they were paid or journalistic, in which the Gripen aircraft and the Swedish offer were apparently ''satanised''.

 
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Deltafan

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AFAIK, from the beginning the number of airframes for Croatia is 12... And from France, it's 12 used F-3R Rafale, from the beginning too...
 

TomcatViP

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So, when I wrote months ago that France's AdlAE was heading rapidly toward a less than 80 Rafale force, I was right.

80 at ~75% availability would mean that 60 are mission ready on average.

Also, Snecma/Safran confirms a potential partial transfer of actvities to HAL for the M88 production in India:

Under the terms of the MOU, HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines intend to explore opportunities to assemble the Safran M88 engine and manufacture components for the engine with HAL for additional batch of Rafale Aircraft for India and for any aircraft manufactured in India by HAL fitted with M88.

The transfer of a significant amount of technology in the assembling/manufacturing programs is also contemplated. The MOU also encompasses collaboration between HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines for indigenization programs relating to design and development of high thrust engines of 110 kN power and above with transfer of key technology in the framework of this development.
 

Archibald

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As usual Dassault will be paid to build 12 new ones.
I readily agree however that all these punctions may cripple the Armee de l'Air in the very short term.

Also never heard of such strategy in the Mirage days.
Back then export orders were either
-first hand from Dassault plant
- obsolete types retired to AdA Chateaudun storage depot (= Davis Monthan AMARC)

Never, ever in-service airframes out of the AdA present day inventory !

Is it some kind of (desperate?) trick to drop cost of Rafale F3s to bury the F-16 before the F-35 mass production steamrolls any alternative ?
 
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Archibald

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It sounds as if in 1985 when Peru bought Mirage 2000C they were taken from a French squadron having just received them.
Weird
...
 

H_K

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So, when I wrote months ago that France's AdlAE was heading rapidly toward a less than 80 Rafale force, I was right.

Actually the AdlAE Rafale fleet should see only a tiny reduction, bottoming out at 99 aircraft. It is 105 today, less 6 used Rafale for Grece this summer.

The remaining 6 used Rafale will be delivered in 2023, at which point France will have restarted deliveries of new-build Rafales, so no impact. Similarly if the 12 used jets for Croatia are delivered in 2024/25 (as per news reports), then they will be leaving as new build Rafales join the AdlA fleet.
 

TomcatViP

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Again, that is a twist of reality:
Rafale production spans over 2 years, so 2021 would be the latest date to see signs of an increase in production. If they are not doubling their capacity at this time, hence, recruiting in the next days or so (think training), you can be sure that the delay will be extended (since Dassault never miss a delivery date).
This will never happen...

Then DefenseNews has a different more realistic info:
The French Air and Space Force will have its 12 new aircraft by the end of 2025. Together with the 28 Rafales that Dassault is to deliver between 2022 and 2024, this will bring the total to 129, as projected in the 2019-2025 military program law.
So if you want to add that 12 airframe potentially bound for Croatia b/w 2023 and 2025, Dassault production rate would have to be doubled starting in 2021... Doubtful. Or at best 2023.
Hence 2025 for the delivery at best while 2026 seems to be more realistic.

Hence the inevitable 60 available Rafale force (not even factoring-in the impact of attrition or the detrimental effect of stretching available workforce and available stocks on maintenance effectiveness!).
 
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H_K

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@TomcatViP France is receiving deliveries of 28 Rafale (ordered in 2019) in 2022-24, minus 24 aircraft (18 used and 6 new) going to Grece and Croatia in the same timeframe.

So that’s a wash (in fact a slight gain). The only used aircraft that aren’t being immediately substituted by new builds are the initial 6 used Rafales delivered this year.
 

Deino

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@TomcatViP France is receiving deliveries of 28 Rafale (ordered in 2019) in 2022-24, minus 24 aircraft (18 used and 6 new) going to Grece and Croatia in the same timeframe.

So that’s a wash (in fact a slight gain). The only used aircraft that aren’t being immediately substituted by new builds are the initial 6 used Rafales delivered this year.


Croatia? Since when will Croatia get Rafales? :oops:
 

galgot

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@TomcatViP France is receiving deliveries of 28 Rafale (ordered in 2019) in 2022-24, minus 24 aircraft (18 used and 6 new) going to Grece and Croatia in the same timeframe.

So that’s a wash (in fact a slight gain). The only used aircraft that aren’t being immediately substituted by new builds are the initial 6 used Rafales delivered this year.


Croatia? Since when will Croatia get Rafales? :oops:

Either used Rafales or new F-16s.
 

galgot

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As usual Dassault will be paid to build 12 new ones.
I readily agree however that all these punctions may cripple the Armee de l'Air in the very short term.

Also never heard of such strategy in the Mirage days.
Back then export orders were either
-first hand from Dassault plant
- obsolete types retired to AdA Chateaudun storage depot (= Davis Monthan AMARC)

Never, ever in-service airframes out of the AdA present day inventory !

Is it some kind of (desperate?) trick to drop cost of Rafale F3s to bury the F-16 before the F-35 mass production steamrolls any alternative ?
If I may Archie,
this happened before. Israel used about 60 SMB2 directly from Adl'A inventory.
Much later, you have the story of the few MN Super-Etendards "lend" to the Iraqis while waiting for their Exocet capable F-1EQ to be ready.
But true, all these (minus the lost ones) were returned later.
 

Archibald

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Accepted ! But SMB-2 were old obsolete stuff with a load of Mirage III incoming.

More generally, back then the AdA could afford that kind of sacrifices, since airframes were cheap and plentiful. Nearly two thousands of Ouragans and Mystères had been build only to be swept by plentiful Mirage III.

Good point too about the Super Etendards for the Iraqis.
 

galgot

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Accepted ! But SMB-2 were old obsolete stuff with a load of Mirage III incoming.

More generally, back then the AdA could afford that kind of sacrifices, since airframes were cheap and plentiful. Nearly two thousands of Ouragans and Mystères had been build only to be swept by plentiful Mirage III.

Good point too about the Super Etendards for the Iraqis.
Indeed. In both case it was helping a Dassault costumer in need while waiting for another product to be ready ( MIIIC for Israel, F-1EQ for the Iraqis).
I see the same policy in the case of Greece, delivering readily available airframes to a Dassault costumer in need (moreover facing a common "adversary").
Is it good or bad for the Adl'A ? No idea, I'm no general... It seems these planes will be replaced by new ones tho.
 
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