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Dassault Rafale NEWS ONLY (TEMPORARY)

TomcatViP

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The 3 Rafale arrived safely flown directly from France (what would explain the odd number of airframe that they had enough fuel to tank from a French MRTT(?) ).

View: https://youtu.be/2T5Vy6Wu_Gc

 
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TomcatViP

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Immediately after the formalization of the contract, the first four Greek pilots will leave for France to be trained with Rafale jets by the French Air Force and executives of Dassault.
[...]
It has been agreed that the six Rafale F3R will come to Greece with a full load of armaments, particularly Meteor and Exocet missiles.
 

Deltafan

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helmutkohl

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Nothing is done yet, but :

Indonesia toward an ordering of 36 to 48 Rafale (in French, sorry. Nothing in English for now)

L’Indonésie serait proche d’une commande de 48 Rafale français – Meta-Defense.fr (meta-defense.fr)

Florence Parly: vers une commande de "36 Rafale" par l'Indonésie (bfmtv.com) (the number is not given during the interview of the French Defense Minister)

alright so by 2030 Indonesia's fleet would be..

Su-27
Su-30
Su-35
Rafale
Typhoon
KFX
Golden Eagle

makes sense
 

stealthflanker

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Rafale and Typhoon were actually oddballs in the mix. Considering their sudden appearance (not really sudden tho for Typhoon as they had presented their latest variant here some years ago)

Typhoon was wanted (now) due to their high climb rate, it would be used only in interceptor role by our National Air Defense Command (Kohanudnas-Komando Pertahanan Udara Nasional) At that point technical specs appears to matters little for decision maker.

Rafale was favoured by our MOD along with Scorpene submarine, at a point it is for "bargaining chip" with US as we also have US offering F18's and F-16V's but our MOD actually desires F-35's. Which US were happen to be not offering.

Sukhois like 27-30's are basically standard. as they use same engine, with exception of some parts which not really interchangeable. Su-27SKM is the "black sheep" in the mix as it is the most "different" Su-27 we have and it suffers from being only 3 of them made in all of the world.

Newer flanker are hampered by the fact nobody wants to offer a sacrificial account for CAATSA. The logic of CAATSA here is that our govt think that they need a permission for CAATSA waiver. While actually, one have to actually buy the goods first then got sanction, after that one can then negotiate for a waiver, this can be done through G2G OR Actually hire a lobbyist group.

The CAATSA itself however will target the person involved in the transaction not the whole country or such.. so when your country get CAATSA..it's not like Yahoo etc will suddenly block their service to the whole nation.

and our arms procurement are to be best volatile.


---------
Golden eagle is a trainer.. Does anyone have trainer sharing parts with their main fighter ? Ours are still TA-50.. they can do some attack but down to the soul they're trainer. Like why the recent Boeing trainer doesnt use F-100 or F-110 engine Which would be representative to current fighters. Except maybe those operating Early gripen variant or Classic hornet


There are points regarding standarization etc being brought but i'll be honest it's now more of a political argument than practical. It only used whenever Russian fighters being brought into discussion. Forgetting that Rafale, Typhoon and KFX are all twin engined fighters where people arguing against Russian fighters keep saying that "twin engined fighters are too expensive to operate because they are twin engined" Yet one can see Typhoon and Rafale being brought in disregarding the fact they have 0 commonality to eachother. and the KFX are using F-414 which God knows how much in common with F-404.

Same can be said for F-35 and F-16V Where Lockheed representative claims the latter is a "bridge" to former.. which doesnt make any sense considering how different they are.. one cannot fit F-135 to F-16V and PW-229 would probably be underpowered for F-35 and the fact the F-35 have internal bays which no falcon family ever have. It may have AESA radars but. Air cooled and liquid cooled is rather different animal here, and naturally i would assume difference in maintenance and certification. Our early F-16's use PW-220 with some 27K thrust rating. while 229 is much higher while latest F-15EX are offered with GE Engine which God knows how much in common with our PW powered F-16's and whether it would be compatible with existing maintenance infratstructure.

There was concern regarding our engine test-cell which only rated for early PW-220's whether it can be (particularly cost effectively) modified to handle much larger thrust rating AL-41F1. Same can be said to American new engine, can the cell handles PW-229 or even GE-F132.

So yeah, the biggest question is what kind of standardization people actually wants or wants to see ?
--------

Avionics would be problematic, of course mainly in datalink etc... There is unfortunately no cost effective or cheap means to address except developing our own datalink standard. This is difficult and always been but. considering Even in our GCI We operate diverse amount of Radar... some British Plessey still operates while the company making them no longer exist, Some operates the TRS-2215 both variants (modern, phased array one and others the early Parabolic antenna one). They have to talk to each other.

F-16 using SADL (if any). Sukhoi using (and proven) TKS datalink maybe the first fighter in our inventory to use and have datalink. They have to be unified.
 

TomcatViP

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Indonesia wants them fast... Wonder if Fast is as fast as the Greeks.

Funny enough, it's the the so call infamous Team Rafale that seemingly had their foot on the brake during the latest negociation rounds b/w the two MoD.


@Archibald :CAATSA: Countering America's Adversaries Through Sanctions Act
 
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Archibald

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... and they critized NASA for being accronym-addict LOL

Reminds me of Cat's eyes... my favorite of the three sisters, by far, was Hitomi Kisugi... although I would happily take any of the three, or even all three, no problem, really...

Wonder if Fast is as fast as the Greeks.

I see where this is going. Will Florence Parly once again strip Pierre (the Armée de l'Air) to dress Paul or Jacques... ? No way, hell, no, we don't go !

(General De Villiers 2022 candidacy intensifies !)
 

TomcatViP

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Let's be honest, Parly Quinn was the loudest voice heard around opposed to strip down the AdlAE.
 
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perttime

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Nothing is done yet, but :

Indonesia toward an ordering of 36 to 48 Rafale (in French, sorry. Nothing in English for now)

L’Indonésie serait proche d’une commande de 48 Rafale français – Meta-Defense.fr (meta-defense.fr)

Florence Parly: vers une commande de "36 Rafale" par l'Indonésie (bfmtv.com) (the number is not given during the interview of the French Defense Minister)

alright so by 2030 Indonesia's fleet would be..

Su-27
Su-30
Su-35
Rafale
Typhoon
KFX
Golden Eagle

makes sense
Working on beating the Finnish WW2 time logistics nightmare?
 

stealthflanker

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Nothing is done yet, but :

Indonesia toward an ordering of 36 to 48 Rafale (in French, sorry. Nothing in English for now)

L’Indonésie serait proche d’une commande de 48 Rafale français – Meta-Defense.fr (meta-defense.fr)

Florence Parly: vers une commande de "36 Rafale" par l'Indonésie (bfmtv.com) (the number is not given during the interview of the French Defense Minister)

alright so by 2030 Indonesia's fleet would be..

Su-27
Su-30
Su-35
Rafale
Typhoon
KFX
Golden Eagle

makes sense
Working on beating the Finnish WW2 time logistics nightmare?
If you ever follow our arms procurement.. you will grow sick of so called "logistic nightmare" argument.
 

helmutkohl

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In regards to operating so many different types
it would seem that the main rationale would be strategic

1 You prefer one type, but your enemy also flies something similar
This would be like the situation with Greece. It flies American aircraft, but because its main rival is a fellow Nato country that also has American types, Greece has always had a French type as well

2 Your country is not really aligned with anyone and/or trying to be neutral/balanced
This would be like Malaysia in the 90s.. it had F-18s but Mahathir never fully trusted the US and felt they could stop spares at any time, so Malaysia also had Russian aircraft. Cold war Finland was the same.

3 Your country is trying to buy allies and influence
This would be like Qatar.. it doesnt need so many types, but with Saudi Arabia hating on them.. they're buying security through massive arms purchases with many different countries. Arguably Egypt is doing the same.

Indonesia to me doesn't seem to match any of the three profiles, but perhaps towards 2 at best.
to me, it would make sense if they just standardize upon 2 types.. the KFX (since they are already invested in it and have some control over the project) and a French type (French always being the popular option for the 2nd alternative). I would say Russia but doesn't the embargo make it harder for them to acquire spares?
 

stealthflanker

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In regards to operating so many different types
it would seem that the main rationale would be strategic

1 You prefer one type, but your enemy also flies something similar
This would be like the situation with Greece. It flies American aircraft, but because its main rival is a fellow Nato country that also has American types, Greece has always had a French type as well

2 Your country is not really aligned with anyone and/or trying to be neutral/balanced
This would be like Malaysia in the 90s.. it had F-18s but Mahathir never fully trusted the US and felt they could stop spares at any time, so Malaysia also had Russian aircraft. Cold war Finland was the same.

3 Your country is trying to buy allies and influence
This would be like Qatar.. it doesnt need so many types, but with Saudi Arabia hating on them.. they're buying security through massive arms purchases with many different countries. Arguably Egypt is doing the same.

Indonesia to me doesn't seem to match any of the three profiles, but perhaps towards 2 at best.
to me, it would make sense if they just standardize upon 2 types.. the KFX (since they are already invested in it and have some control over the project) and a French type (French always being the popular option for the 2nd alternative). I would say Russia but doesn't the embargo make it harder for them to acquire spares?
If you reading my post you will realize there are ways to circumvent so called "embargo" Which our country does not take because people cares about their bank account.

And you cannot make any comparison for this...like What India in the category ?

Plus you can never make sense of our arms procurement. Too much politics, too much interests.
 

helmutkohl

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In regards to operating so many different types
it would seem that the main rationale would be strategic

1 You prefer one type, but your enemy also flies something similar
This would be like the situation with Greece. It flies American aircraft, but because its main rival is a fellow Nato country that also has American types, Greece has always had a French type as well

2 Your country is not really aligned with anyone and/or trying to be neutral/balanced
This would be like Malaysia in the 90s.. it had F-18s but Mahathir never fully trusted the US and felt they could stop spares at any time, so Malaysia also had Russian aircraft. Cold war Finland was the same.

3 Your country is trying to buy allies and influence
This would be like Qatar.. it doesnt need so many types, but with Saudi Arabia hating on them.. they're buying security through massive arms purchases with many different countries. Arguably Egypt is doing the same.

Indonesia to me doesn't seem to match any of the three profiles, but perhaps towards 2 at best.
to me, it would make sense if they just standardize upon 2 types.. the KFX (since they are already invested in it and have some control over the project) and a French type (French always being the popular option for the 2nd alternative). I would say Russia but doesn't the embargo make it harder for them to acquire spares?
If you reading my post you will realize there are ways to circumvent so called "embargo" Which our country does not take because people cares about their bank account.

And you cannot make any comparison for this...like What India in the category ?

Plus you can never make sense of our arms procurement. Too much politics, too much interests.

India was mostly like 2..
French or British and Russian.
One from one side, and a similar type from the other.
i.e. Jaguar and MiG-27, Mirage 2000 and MiG-29, etc
at least it was that way for decades. but recently Americans were included
 

TomcatViP

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2000lb AASM successful separation test (Safran):

tir_separation_aasm1000_-_c_dassault_aviation_dr.jpg

 

Deltafan

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Greece to pay 2.3 bln euros for 18 French Rafale fighter jets | News | ekathimerini.com

Greece will pay a total of 2.3 billion euros ($2.8 billion) under a deal it is due to sign soon with France for the purchase of 18 Dassault-made Rafale fighter jets, its government spokesman said on Thursday.
Greece will buy six newly-built and 12 second-hand Rafale jets for 1.92 billion euros and pay another 400 million for their equipment, Stelios Petsas told a televised briefing.
The first six used jets will be delivered around June and the rest by the middle of 2023, Petsas added. [Reuters]
 

TomcatViP

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Reuters is incorrect. The deal involves the deep upggrade of their M2K. The cost being included in the grand total above.
 

Flyaway

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Reuters is incorrect. The deal involves the deep upggrade of their M2K. The cost being included in the grand total above.
Why upgrade those when they are getting these as well seemingly F-35s. Do they need that many airframes.
 

TomcatViP

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@Flyaway : Mainly for the Exocet missile. Also M2K is far less expensive than a Rafale to maintain with a higher reliability. For them they have also the cost of manpower on their side (the more they do with Greek maintainers, on Greek ground the less it will cost to them). So the Mirage won't go before long being a solid non-US component of their defense.
See it as their Phrench Phantoms.

Edit:
There is also in-line with the probable compatibility with UAE M2K9s (remember that it has been agreed that this will be a "non-limited"upgrade) which whom Greece just signed a defense pact (read above). Hence, in the short term, this open the possibility for cross fleet bridging with specifically developed armament from UAE as well as from Israel, significantly widening user fleet for them, increasing their future competitive stance (roughly 100 airframe).
 
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Deltafan

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Reuters is incorrect. The deal involves the deep upggrade of their M2K. The cost being included in the grand total above.
Reuters cannot be incorrect, as it just reports what the spokesman of the Greek government said. Only this spokesman can be incorrect, if he is incorrect...
 

TomcatViP

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Sadly, no. The statement of the Greek gov official was in the English spoken Greek press. It includes M2K upgrade (all available upgrade) and financement modalities (as well as Greek debt slight increase).
 
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@TomcatViP The Greek statement doesn’t specify whether the Mirage upgrade is included or not.

There is some confusion on the total cost because there are multiple contracts being signed, including some for unconnected stuff like drone upgrades. All they’ve said is that the Rafales will cost €1.92B and the weapons will cost €400M. Other sources have mentioned €100M for the Mirage upgrade (which may or may not be included in the above numbers) and a total cost of €2.5B.

Anyway whether the total is €2.3B or $2.5B isn’t the main point... this is a big win for “Team France” and the overall economic value over 3 decades will be much larger.
 

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@H_K : 2.5 including M2K it is. But the parting is only speculation. I remind you that India paid billions their Mirage upgrade...

No, it's not a big win for France. It's a big win for some French. None of them being from the future generations that will have to finance a 20 years old fighter at times that promise to be more demanding in term of public defense... or French Pilots that waited long the modernisation of their airframe just to be cut of 1 entire squadron of them.

The precedent is also worrying for long term defense planning (how many should we order taking into account le fait du prince*? How many pilots should we train, what ressources shall we field, what cost can we plan...) and what can be foreseen in term complexification for the defense industry (not all defense companies in France are as joyfully dysfunctional as is presently Dassault).

Last but not least, it raises the question of how legal can be such disvestment of national defense assets by a succedding majority without any scrutinizing.

IMOHO it points (this weird restricted flee market that I call Macron's great aicraft bazaar) to how frail and dysfunctional democracy à la French has become. And that should be a point of concerns for their allies.
 
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Deltafan

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Sadly, no. The statement of the Greek gov official was in the English spoken Greek press. It includes M2K upgrade (all available upgrade) and financement modalities (as well as Greek debt slight increase).
Is there a more recent source than that of the Greek government spokesperson since December 17, 2020 from Reuters ? If yes, is there a link ?
 
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Deltafan

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@H_K : 2.5 including M2K it is. But the parting is only speculation. I remind you that India paid billions their Mirage upgrade...

No, it's not a big win for France. It's a big win for some French. None of them being from the future generations that will have to finance a 20 years old fighter at times that promise to be more demanding in term of public defense... or French Pilots that waited long the modernisation of their airframe just to be cut of 1 entire squadron of them.

The precedent is also worrying for long term defense planning (how many should we order taking into account le fait du prince*? How many pilots should we train, what ressources shall we field, what cost can we plan...) and what can be foreseen in term complexification for the defense industry (not all defense companies in France are as joyfully dysfunctional as is presently Dassault).

Last but not least, it raises the question of how legal can be such disvestment of national defense assets by a succedding majority without any scrutinizing.

IMOHO it points (this weird restricted flee market that I call Macron's great aicraft bazaar) to how frail and dysfunctional democracy à la French has become. And that should be a point of concerns for their allies.
For my own again, it's not a deal for a money "big win", but a (good or bad) political and military deal between two allies.

And as long as there is a replacement in France of the 12 used planes by 12 new ones, it is positive for ("joyfully dysfunctional" ?) Dassault and the French Air Force (and its pilots). For the moment, nothing is signed for the buy of the 12 (+ 6 new) used Rafale for Greece. An order for the 12 new for France can only be made after the official signature between France and Greece for the 12 + 6, and this signature France-Greece is foreseen for the next week. If, later, France doesn't order the 12 new, there will be a problem for the French Air Force, but otherwise...

Otherwise again, is this forum the place to judge the "dysfunctional democracy" of France ? I have too a lot of opinions on politic in France and, in my opinion, on more "dysfunctional democracies" than France (and more particularly in the current period), but AFAIK, this is not the place... I would be interested in the opinion of the moderators on this subject.
 

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Jemiba

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"...but AFAIK, this is not the place..."

Fully agree, the discussion is running a bit OT, and getting into the field of politics, what
it shouldn't according to our forum rules.
Mentioning the details of that deal is ok, I think, so that everyone reading it, can make up
his mind. Discussing the politics is ok, too, just not publicly here, but via PM, mail, or whatever.
 

helmutkohl

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With news that Boeing has done ski jump tests with the Shornet and is offering it to India..
has the Rafale done ski jump tests of its own?

logistically speaking, should India acquire new aircraft for its carriers.. it should be either the Rafale or more MiG-29Ks
since they already operate the type.
I also thought they placed a ban on foreign systems or something this year
 

Bhurki

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With news that Boeing has done ski jump tests with the Shornet and is offering it to India..
has the Rafale done ski jump tests of its own?
No, rafale hasn't yet been tested for being viable to launch off a ski jump.

logistically speaking, should India acquire new aircraft for its carriers.. it should be either the Rafale or more MiG-29Ks
since they already operate the type.
I also thought they placed a ban on foreign systems or something this year

The larger issue is the fact that rafale doesn't fit on the lifts. Even though dassault has assured that it has a method of removing the wingtips every time the jet uses the lift(not sure how that would reduce its wingspan in any significant way), I'm not sure if such a solution would inspire any confidence in the indian navy.

Even the F18E/F will fit only by tilting it on its longitudnal axis. (stated by boeing)

Mig 29k folded wingspan - 26 ft
F-18E/F folded wingspan - 32 ft
Rafale fixed wingspan - 36 ft
images (33).jpeg images (22).jpeg

Space on the lifts is quite limited, and cannot be augmented without protracted and costly modifications to the ship's internal structure itself.
 
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helmutkohl

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^ thanks for the detailed answer
are the lifts on the two carriers going to be the same? The Gorshkov (sorry forgot the indian name) and the new carrier.
 

Bhurki

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^ thanks for the detailed answer
are the lifts on the two carriers going to be the same? The Gorshkov (sorry forgot the indian name) and the new carrier.
There's no confirmed details about the size of lifts on the newer carrier (unofficial sources state it to be the same size) , but even if they are large enough to operate the likes of rhino and rafale, i don't think india would consider it prudent to have 2 separate airwings for 2 ships.

After all, these ships are supposed to slot into each others deployment routines and have a decent amount of interoperability, sharing the airwing being principle.
 

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