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Dassault Mach 3 Mirage fighter projects

Arjen

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A bit of common sense and some editing of machine-translated text required :-( Other than that, nice images.
Three-mast fighter - Mach 3 fighter
Three mahogany - Mach 3
Reactors - from French réacteurs - jet engines

Three-mast:
 

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blackkite

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Thanks a lot.
French mach 3-4 aircraft wall is very very high. Why??? :eek:
For example, I can't find almost any information about MZ1-46Q except Jozef san's excellent pictures.
I can see very complicated air intake system through these surprising pictures.
 

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Deltafan

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blackkite said:
Thanks a lot.
French mach 3-4 aircraft wall is very very high. Why??? :eek:
For example, I can't find almost any information about MZ1-46Q except Jozef san's excellent pictures.
I can see very complicated air intake system through these surprising pictures.
Because about these planes there are only 11 pages (only Dassault) in the Fana de l'Aviation 461 from April 2008 (Alexis Rocher) and 11 pages (not only about Dassault) in the recent book French Secret Projects I (J-C Carbonel). And M. Carbonel tried to show projects that were not in Le Fana. That's why there is no MZI-46Q in the book, when there are two drawings (Gatial + Ratinaud) and technical characteristics in the article.

Rocher and Carbonel could search in the Dassault files, but these files were not very explicit and they could not have more place in the article of Le Fana or in the chapter of the book... Alas...

All the known webpages about these projects (in particular about the MD 750) come from the article of Le Fana. Even the MD 750 Sharkit 1/72 model comes from the drawings and photos of this article.

But we can expect new articles, with new drawings, in the future. For example, the Dassault files exist and there will be allways authors to search in it.
 

dan_inbox

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Arjen said:
A bit of common sense and some editing of machine-translated text required :-( Other than that, nice images.
Ah, yes, that's the old debate about what this forum is for, quality vs quantity/speed. Individual posters have chosen their camp, obviously.
Remorselessly so, too.

Hopefully the new year will bring some enlightenment about the case for doing things right the first time
... even if it takes thinking twice before pushing the button.
 

blackkite

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Thanks a lot, gentlemen. :D Only Dassault knows everything.
How do you think about the meaning of MZ1-46Q?
 

Deltafan

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blackkite said:
Thanks a lot, gentlemen. :D Only Dassault knows everything.
How do you think about the meaning of MZ1-46Q?
In the article of Le Fana it's wrote that the MZI-46Q was the optimal Dassault Mach 4 design for the SAME program (SAME, Système d'avion mach élevé/High Mach Aircraft System).

For Dassault, there were

-X variants : fixed wings
-Y variants : variable geometry (VG)
-Z variants : twin-engine version

From 19 October 1966, the series of designs were named from "A" (to "M").

The MZI-46Q is a "Z" version (twin-engine) of the "M" serie of designs.

After meetings with the Armée de l'Air, Dassault considered that the best project was the LZI-43 (design from "L" serie and smaller + less powerful than the MZI-46Q) and proposed it, on 19 February 1969, to the french authorities.

I must admit that I don't know if the names are LZ"I"-43 and MZ"I"-46Q or LZ"1"-43 and MZ"1"-46Q (Le Fana uses "I" and "1". Carbonel speaks of LZ"I"-43 in the text, but uses LZ-"1" for the characteristics).



Characteristics of the MZI-46Q (Le Fana 461 from April 2008, page 23, Alexis Rocher) :

Length : 22.5 m
Wingspan : 12 m
Wing area : 120 m²
empty weight : 26.9 T
max. weight : 41.2 T
performance : Mach 4.2 during 8'
engines : 2 x SNECMA M51-53 with 13 000 kgp each. The air intakes were with VG.
armament : 2 x 30 mm DEFA guns + 2 AA missiles in internal weapon bay.
 

blackkite

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Ummm........
Anyway thanks a lot. What a complicated naming system!!
 

Deltafan

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blackkite said:
What is the meaning of letter "W"?
In the article of Le Fana, it's wrote that a second letter indicated the "type" of engine. Nothing is said about what were the "types". Maybe W indicated one of these "types".
Or maybe W is a variant forgotten by Mr. Carbonel in its book...

blackkite said:
What is this?
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12481.0;attach=587940;image
On "this" is wrote AW4. It's an early stage of the AW-4-44 design.

blackkite said:
I want to see "X" variants, CY-1, CX-2 and LZ-1.
The LZ"I"-43 (or LZ"1"-43) is one of the LZ-1 designs. (the characteristics of the LZ-1 in the book of Carbonel are the same as the characteristics of the LZ1-43 in the article of Le Fana).

The CX-2 is one of the fixed wings (X) variants.

As Le Fana de l'aviation N°461 from April 2008 is no more available as old number to order from Le Fana :
 

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blackkite

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Hi! MD 117-33 .
https://www.amazon.fr/French-Secret-Projects-Post-Fighters/dp/1910809004

You can see many mach3-4 aircraft information in this book.
 

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Deltafan

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blackkite said:
Hi! MD 117-33 .
https://www.amazon.fr/French-Secret-Projects-Post-Fighters/dp/1910809004

You can see many mach3-4 aircraft information in this book.
Thanks ;)

Deltafan said:
Because about these planes there are only 11 pages (only Dassault) in the Fana de l'Aviation 461 from April 2008 (Alexis Rocher) and 11 pages (not only about Dassault) in the recent book French Secret Projects I (J-C Carbonel).
And

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,26554.0.html
 

blackkite

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Please show me the size of MD-750(span, length, etc).
What is the difference between MD-750 and MD-751?

https://www.aviationmegastore.com/dassault-aviation-md750-mach-3-fighter-md750-sharkit-sharmd750-aircraft-scale-modelling/product/?action=prodinfo&art=105804

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjmMj5w4Ilc

I believe this model gives us some hint for MD-750 size.
Mirage2000 wing span is 9.1m. So MD-750 span is about 11.5m?
 

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Deltafan

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blackkite said:
Please show me the size of MD-750(span, length, etc).
What is the difference between MD-750 and MD-751?
It's very difficult to answer. In particular because :

-In its book, Carbonel wrote that 750 was from 1966 and 751f from 1968, and that they were "similar". Carbonel gives characteristics only for the 751f, and only "Gross" Wing Area (95m²) and "Gross" Weight (25 800 kg).
-In le Fana, there is only the MD 750. No 751, no 751f and no characteristics.



-In the book of Carbonel, the black desk model is named MD 751 (not 751f)
-In le Fana, the black desk model is named MD 750




-For Le Fana and for Carbonel, this 3 views drawing is called MD 750 :




As you can see, it's very difficult to know if there are differences between the plane of the desk model and the plane in the 3 views...


I guess that we must wait new articles or books to be sure of what is what...
 

blackkite

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Ummm........Difficult. Anyway thanks a lot. :D
I think that MD-750 size is LZ1-43 class. ;)(They have same engine and almost same speed.)
But MD-750 side view pilot size is little small. ???
 

NUSNA_Moebius

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For the SNECMA M53 powered proposal, are we talking a specialized variant of this engine, or basically the same as installed in the Mirage 2000? Kind of hard to believe it could deliver real Mach 3 performance. Makes me wonder about all the different F-15 power plants having that kind of capability.
 

overscan

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M53 engine had (has) a very low compression ratio of 9.8:1 (compared to contemporary engines of 20:1 - 30:1) which means high speed (Mach 2.5+) could have been achievable with the right intake/exhaust design. It was initially specified for Mach 2.5-3.0 designs.
 

Archibald

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As Overscan said. The M53 was specifically designed and build for Mach 3 fighters of the 60's (that never existed) and later for Mach 2.5 Mirage G8 and the fixed-wing G8A, the ACF. None of them went past the prototype stage.
 

iverson

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As Messrs. PaulMM and Archibald note, the M53 was indeed a high-Mach engine design. In fact, I seem to recall reading that the the Mach 2+ design features of the M53 (and of the Mirage F.1 overall) were one of the main reasons why the Mirage F.1/M53 was an also-ran in the NATO fighter competition won by the F-16. Optimized Mach 2+ performance was no longer fashionable in the '70s.
 

overscan

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It''s also possible SNECMA had technical difficulties with reliably achieving higher compression ratios and made a virtue from disadvantage, as it were. They had a license for the JTF10/TF30 from Pratt and Whitney, producing the TF104/TF106/TF306 derivatives.

M53 is not fuel-efficient, due to the low compression ratio, which means it isn't great for long range.
 

Archibald

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Yes they had. SNECMA was a small company which had spent too much time with the ATAR per lack of a better engine. Bar the M53 there were plenty of other designs that never went past the drawing board. Only with the M88 was the company fully competititive on the military market. Experience was gained through many collaborations with the British and Americans.
 

alanqua

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Hello,
I was part of this article released a few years ago in Le Fana. I realize that I did not share the blueprints I used to draw some illustrations. So please find them in attachment and enjoy. At that time, I got them from Le Fana who took photographs directly from the archives (of Dassault, or Vincennes, I don't remember). I had very few details so you can imagine how I struggled to make the drawings a little bit "realistic". Jozef Gatial did also a great job, I'm jealous ;)
Anyway enjoy these files.
Regards
Alain
 

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alanqua

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SUITE
 

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Michel Van

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OH MY GOD, What for picture B)
They really planned up to Mach 4.5 ?!

Merci, alanqua ;D !
 

starviking

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Lovely stuff! Thanks for sharing.

I do have one question though, what is the B25 Jet Engine in the engines picture in the last post?
 

Archibald

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Thank you very much for sharing that, Alanqua.
 

Deltafan

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Alanqua, you are (very ! very ! very !) great !!! :D

starviking said:
Lovely stuff! Thanks for sharing.

I do have one question though, what is the B25 Jet Engine in the engines picture in the last post?
On the list it's B2S. On the engines drawings it's between "5" and "S"...


We have the explanation for "W" :

X : fixed wings
Y : VG
Z : fixed wings bi-engine
W : VG bi-engine


And, as we can see on the blueprint, we are now sure that it's LZ"1"-43, not LZ"I"-43
 

hesham

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Wow,you made my day Alain.
 

ivran

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OH MY GOD, Beautiful, Merci !
You made my day Alain.
:)
 

Deltafan

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For the letters we have now (Fana 461 + French SP 1 + Alanqua) :

-A : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), early TF 306 DS engine versions
-C : Class 2 (Mach 4-4.5), Nord Aviation X81 engine versions
-D : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), early B2S engine versions
-E : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), last B2S engine versions
-F : ? (FX1 of alanqua's blueprints)
-G : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), M 51-30 engine versions
-G : Class 2 (Mach 4-4.5), M 51-30 (M 51-45) engine versions
-H : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), last TF 306 DS engine versions
-J : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), M 52 engine versions
-K : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), T 10 engine versions
-L : M 53 engine versions
-M : M 51-53 engine versions

-W : VG, bi-engine versions
-X : fixed wings, one engine versions
-Y : VG, one engine versions
-Z : fixed wings, bi-engine versions


Notes :
-the projects with shaded color rectangles were before a meeting from 25.11.1966 between Dassault and members of the governmental CPE (Centre de prospective et d'évaluation/Prospective and Evaluation Center, French equivalent of the US RAND).
-Concerning the pre-SAME projects (1965-1968), we have now the "1" (Mach 3-3.5) et "2" (Mach 4-4.5 projects) classes lists, but the Class 0 list (Mach 2-2.5) lacks. The lists of the (1968-1971) two SAME classes projects (Mach 2.5-3 and Mach 3-3.5) lack too.
-As "Y" and "Z" are désignations for, respectively, single-engined and twin-engined planes, the "YZ" designation, in French SP 1, for the MD 117-33, seems to be a problem (or there is another lack in our knowledge).


Questions :
-Were there "B" or/and "I" series ?
-why the "M 51-45" in parentheses is under the M 51-30 engine for the Class 2 G projects list ? (was the 51-45 a derivative or a replacement for the 51-30 ?)
-What are the différences between the "early" (A) and "last" (H) TF 306 DS versions and between the "early" (D) and "last" (E) B2S engine versions ?
 

NUSNA_Moebius

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
M53 engine had (has) a very low compression ratio of 9.8:1 (compared to contemporary engines of 20:1 - 30:1) which means high speed (Mach 2.5+) could have been achievable with the right intake/exhaust design. It was initially specified for Mach 2.5-3.0 designs.
Any evidence of M53 powered aircraft hitting higher than official speeds in testing?
 

sferrin

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Deltafan said:
For the letters we have now (Fana 461 + French SP 1 + Alanqua) :

-A : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), early TF 306 DS engine versions
-C : Class 2 (Mach 4-4.5), Nord Aviation X81 engine versions
-D : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), early B2S engine versions
-E : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), last B2S engine versions
-F : ? (FX1 of alanqua's blueprints)
-G : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), M 51-30 engine versions
-G : Class 2 (Mach 4-4.5), M 51-30 (M 51-45) engine versions
-H : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), last TF 306 DS engine versions
-J : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), M 52 engine versions
-K : Class 1 (Mach 3-3.5), T 10 engine versions
-L : M 53 engine versions
-M : M 51-53 engine versions

-W : VG, bi-engine versions
-X : fixed wings, one engine versions
-Y : VG, one engine versions
-Z : fixed wings, bi-engine versions


Notes :
-the projects with shaded color rectangles were before a meeting from 25.11.1966 between Dassault and members of the governmental CPE (Centre de prospective et d'évaluation/Prospective and Evaluation Center, French equivalent of the US RAND).
-Concerning the pre-SAME projects (1965-1968), we have now the "1" (Mach 3-3.5) et "2" (Mach 4-4.5 projects) classes lists, but the Class 0 list (Mach 2-2.5) lacks. The lists of the (1968-1971) two SAME classes projects (Mach 2.5-3 and Mach 3-3.5) lack too.
-As "Y" and "Z" are désignations for, respectively, single-engined and twin-engined planes, the "YZ" designation, in French SP 1, for the MD 117-33, seems to be a problem (or there is another lack in our knowledge).


Questions :
-Were there "B" or/and "I" series ?
-why the "M 51-45" in parentheses is under the M 51-30 engine for the Class 2 G projects list ? (was the 51-45 a derivative or a replacement for the 51-30 ?)
-What are the différences between the "early" (A) and "last" (H) TF 306 DS versions and between the "early" (D) and "last" (E) B2S engine versions ?
How did they intend to get a TF30 to go Mach 3.5? Did it have some kind of bypass gimickry like a J58? ???


Also, is that a Mirage 4000 silhouette in some of those pictures for reference?
 

starviking

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Deltafan said:
Alanqua, you are (very ! very ! very !) great !!! :D

starviking said:
Lovely stuff! Thanks for sharing.

I do have one question though, what is the B25 Jet Engine in the engines picture in the last post?
On the list it's B2S. On the engines drawings it's between "5" and "S"...
Thanks Deltafan! Is there any good source on the engines on the list - my Google-fu is not bringing anything up on the B2S :(
 

Michel Van

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sferrin said:
Questions :
-Were there "B" or/and "I" series ?
-why the "M 51-45" in parentheses is under the M 51-30 engine for the Class 2 G projects list ? (was the 51-45 a derivative or a replacement for the 51-30 ?)
-What are the différences between the "early" (A) and "last" (H) TF 306 DS versions and between the "early" (D) and "last" (E) B2S engine versions ?
How did they intend to get a TF30 to go Mach 3.5? Did it have some kind of bypass gimickry like a J58? ???

Also, is that a Mirage 4000 silhouette in some of those pictures for reference?
[/quote]

on TF30 must be the Afterburner, those planes had to fly Mach 3.5 only for few minutes.

on 51-45 a derivative or a replacement for the 51-30 ?
i guess that 51-45 is derivative with different air intake and compressor fans and Afterburner to push the plane to higher speed of Mach 4.5

yes on some picture are Mirage 4000 as reference, but mostly SR-71 and some times a Mig-25
 

Archibald

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As michel said, there are three silhouettes "for the sake of comparison": SR-71, MiG-25, and Mirage 4000.
 
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