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Dassault Mach 3 Mirage fighter projects

MIRAGE 4000

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It's not an "April fish" !!!!!! ;D :D ;D :D ;D

When you will see the secret "Mirage" Mach 4 .. well .... unbelievable !!!

"Rendez-vous" in april in le Fana for the first history of "Dassault secret high speed fighter program". For the first time, secret archives are open.

8 projects are draw ....

See you in le Fana friends !
 

Stargazer2006

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This topic results from splitting the Dassault designations topic to remove a thread of discussion that had little to do with it. All these posts speculated on whether the Mach 3 Super Mirage design of 1969 was real or not and whether Le Fana de l'Aviation was going to publish an article about it...

On a sidenote, I wish to explain why every post is described as edited by me... Each of these contained the following subject: "Dassault MD numbers for the SMB2 & SMB4 ?" which of course did not correspond to what they were really about... So for the sake of archiving this topic, I renamed each of them accordingly.
 

overscan

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The easy way to accomplish that would be to create a new topic with the title you want, then select the old topic and "Merge" it with the new topic, selecting the option to change all the titles to the new topic.
 

shockonlip

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Stargazer2006 said:
This topic results from splitting the Dassault designations topic to remove a thread of discussion that had little to do with it. All these posts speculated on whether the Mach 3 Super Mirage design of 1969 was real or not and whether Le Fana de l'Aviation was going to publish an article about it...
...
Hi Stargazer.
So here we are over 3 years later. Sorry I'm getting in this late. Was an article on Mach 3/Mach 4 French proposals
ever done in Le Fana de l'Aviation or anywhere? I expect great things from the homeland of Rene Lorin, Rene LeDuc,
and the Nord Griffon !
 

overscan

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Yes it was, April 2008 Fana.

Really beautiful 12 page article by Alexis Rocher ("MIRAGE 4000" on the forum).
 

Stargazer2006

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shockonlip said:
Stargazer2006 said:
This topic results from splitting the Dassault designations topic to remove a thread of discussion that had little to do with it. All these posts speculated on whether the Mach 3 Super Mirage design of 1969 was real or not and whether Le Fana de l'Aviation was going to publish an article about it...
...
Hi Stargazer.
So here we are over 3 years later. Sorry I'm getting in this late. Was an article on Mach 3/Mach 4 French proposals
ever done in Le Fana de l'Aviation or anywhere? I expect great things from the homeland of Rene Lorin, Rene LeDuc,
and the Nord Griffon !
Sure. Here's the cover to it...
 

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shockonlip

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Thanks Overscan and Stargazer!

I'll begin the search for a copy.

Nice cover !
 

Michel Van

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i have a copy of April 2008 Fana.
again thanks to Alexis Rocher ("MIRAGE 4000" on the forum).
This article is...
 

Caravellarella

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Veuillez rester dans le sujet!

Dear Boys and Girls, this topic veers all over the place (SNCAN Nord 500 Helcade? SNCASO SO.4060? please......). What it doesn't tell me; whether or not the Mach 3 Mirage "project" depicted is a real, bona fide "project" or not! So, please tell me if......

1. The drawing is a fake or fantasy artist's impression produced by Aviation Magazine International in June 1969.
2. The drawing is a real Avions Marcel Dassault "project" for a Mach 3 Mirage.
3. There was a real Avions Marcel Dassault Mach 3 Mirage "project", but this drawing is NOT of said "project".

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

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Stargazer2006

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Caption reads:
As part of research on a French "Mach 3" aircraft, the Avions Marcel Dassault company has elaborated, among other projects, this design for an M53-powered, twin-jet, fixed-wing delta aircraft. Will it be built?
So to me, it's pretty obvious that even if the three-view has been redrawn for Aviation Magazine, it builds upon genuine Dassault sketches.
 

Caravellarella

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Stargazer2006 said:
Caption reads:
As part of research on a French "Mach 3" aircraft, the Avions Marcel Dassault company has elaborated, among other projects, this design for an M53-powered, twin-jet, fixed-wing delta aircraft. Will it be built?
So to me, it's pretty obvious that even if the three-view has been redrawn for Aviation Magazine, it builds upon genuine Dassault sketches.
That is SO definitive; NOT. If that is the case Stéphane, why on earth was the subject of "Fake" ever brought up in the first place? Would have been better if Dassault had built and flown the thing, then we could all write about it in "aerospace" instead and not have to wonder if it was an actual "project" :eek:
 

overscan

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My French is clearly substandard but isn't the primary meaning for "dessin" drawing?

I read it as

"As part of research on a French "Mach 3" aircraft, the Avions Marcel Dassault company has elaborated, among other projects, this drawing for an M53-powered, twin-jet, fixed-wing delta aircraft. Will it be built?"
 

Caravellarella

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overscan said:
My French is clearly substandard but isn't the primary meaning for "dessin" drawing?
Dear Overscan, I understand "Dessin" means both drawing and design (as in plan, project, study)......
 

Stargazer2006

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Caravellarella said:
overscan said:
My French is clearly substandard but isn't the primary meaning for "dessin" drawing?
Dear Overscan, I understand "Dessin" means both drawing and design (as in plan, project, study)......
Correct. In this context "dessin" is clearly meant as "design". The sentence does NOT mean that the drawing is actually from Dassault, but I can see why the sentence would be ambiguous to even a French reader not familiar with technical language.
 

overscan

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The drawing appears to be based on the MD 750 Mach 3 fighter design as shown in Alexis Rocher's article. It isn't perfect, so it is likely that the drawings were made from a photo of the desk model or depicts a variant design.
 

Caravellarella

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overscan said:
The drawing appears to be based on the MD 750 Mach 3 fighter design as shown in Alexis Rocher's article. It isn't perfect, so it is likely that the drawings were made from a photo of the desk model or depicts a variant design.
I think the date the drawing was published (15th June 1969) is probably more significant than the accuracy of the drawing itself. Why has it take more than 40 years to get around to:-

1. Asserting that the drawing and the "project" are fake.
2. Trying to confirm (definitively) the true nature of the drawing and/or the "project".

I wonder if the drawing and the "project" were considered to be fake back in the summer of 1969......

Terry (Caravellarella)
 

alanqua

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Hi,

I did the 2D drawings of the Mirage Mach III for "Le Fana de l'Aviation" (Jozef Gatial did the wonderful 3D illustrations). My friend Alexis Rocher did the article after lots of researches in the archives in Paris. This was not a fake, although it would have been a perfect candidate for an "April's Fool".

It is true, though, that this small 3 view plan you discuss about came for "old ages": it had been published in Aviation Magazine International at various times, it was even published in Air Enthusiast by Tony Butler, and everybody wondered what was this project.
During his research, Alexis showed the drawing to Bruno Revellin Falcoz, the head manager for Research and Developement at Dassault Aviation at that time. He was skeptical and did not recognize it, although it included some recognizable Dassault designs.
Anyway, the archives told the secret: notes, official letters, designs, derivatives, etc... everything was real. Had been real.

This "Fana de l'aviation" issue came to be the most successful issue of the year in terms of sales. It raised some interest amongst Dassault Aviation people. Sharkit produced a model of it whith great and inventive illustrations for the box. Even a hobby magazine did excellent "whatifs". It is strange: this Mirage Mach III brought lots of enthusiasm, fantasy, like if it would have been a "dream plane". Maybe Dassault should have produced it for good, after all.

Working on this article was an inspiring adventure for me, although my drawings could have been better, I admit it.

Should you have any questions on this article, please do not hesitate to ask.

Regards,
Alain
 

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blackkite

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Wow!!!! Thanks for sharing us.
 

gral_rj

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What's the second shadowed profile in the last picture? Mirage 4000?
 

Retrofit

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gral_rj said:
What's the second shadowed profile in the last picture? Mirage 4000?
Yes, first shadowed profile is the Lockheed SR-71, second one the Dassault Mirage 4000, and third one the Mig-25.
 

Michel Van

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From Top to Down

in Gray
SR-71
Mirage 4000
MIG-25
in Color
AW4-44 a swing-wing aircraft, Mach 3 (for 13 minute at Mach 4)
GW-2 (X3) a swing-wing aircraft, interceptor with top speed of Mach 4
LZI-43 a delta-wing aircraft, mach 3 (3,2 for 12 minute)
MD-750 a delta-wing aircraft mach 3
AY-4 a swing-wing aircraft, Mach 3 (3,2 for 4 minute and 30 seconds)

so how get France on the Idea for Mach 3-4 Interceptors ?
in 1964 the French Army get there Version of RAND corp.
Le Centre de prospective en d'évaluation (CPE) under control of General Hughes de l'Estoile
CPE made strategically studies for french Military future demands, like VTOL or swing-wing aircraft
in 1965 one Study group travail n°2 (about Airdefence) came to conclusion that France Airforce
need "Aivion pilote á Mach élevé" (manned aircraft a high mach [numbers])

source:
Le Fana de L'Aviation N°461 page 19
 

alanqua

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Hi,

Yes, the 1st shadowed profile is a SR-71, the 2nd a Mirage 4000 and the 3rd is a Mig-25. Alexis wanted some known planes to give an approximation of these different Dassault Mach 3 studies.
This slide has been published in the Mirage Mach III article in Le Fana.

Regards
Alain
 

ivran

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Any details about AW4-44 a swing-wing aircraft?Simply Mirage IV with VG?, Or not.
Maybe drawing or 3 view
Thanks in advance
 

hesham

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ivran said:
Any details about AW4-44 a swing-wing aircraft?Simply Mirage IV with VG?, Or not.
Maybe drawing or 3 view
Thanks in advance
OK Ivran.
 

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alanqua

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Hello,
I did this drawing a few years ago for Le Fana de l'Aviation. Here is a larger resolution picture from my artwork, for those who are interested. Needless to say that the colors and markings are purely conjectional. But I think it gives a pretty good idea of how this aircraft could have looked like if it had been in operational service.
Regards
Alain
 

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ivran

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Great art work, possibility to see 3 view???
 

alanqua

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Hello,
(sorry for the late reply)
Unfortunately, I did not draw the 3 views plan, only this profile. But I still have the photo of the original plan that helped me to make the drawing. I think it comes directly from the Dassault archives. On this one, you can notice the variable geometry.
Enjoy
Alain
 

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hesham

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Wow,nice find Alanqua.
 

ivran

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Thank you veryyyy much, its great and rare drawing :)
 

bipa

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Wow, beautiful alanqua!!
Post of the month at the very least!
 

sferrin

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hesham said:
ivran said:
Any details about AW4-44 a swing-wing aircraft?Simply Mirage IV with VG?, Or not.
Maybe drawing or 3 view
Thanks in advance
OK Ivran.
Mach 4 with TF30s? ???
 

blackkite

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Ummm.......SNECMA TF-306 DS.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2040.0

"Interesting, Snecma worked in 1966/1967 on "ramjet" TF 306 for "high Mach fighter projects" (M 48 and M51) (think it was like the PW J58 on SR-71). "

Anyway it's a amazing drawing. :eek: Thanks a lot. :D
 

FighterJock

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I am surprised that Dassault never actually selected and built a fighter from the Mach 3 fighter project, any idea as to why they never went ahead with it? Too costly? Or too advanced? :-\
 

Antonio

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Too costly.
All high performance French projects like G series, ACF or Mirage 4000 were canceled and cheaper solutions were favored instead. Mirage F1 instead of Mirage F2, Mirage 2000 instead Super Mirage. Such aircraft resulted better export products which helped additional costs reduction
 

Michel Van

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FighterJock said:
I am surprised that Dassault never actually selected and built a fighter from the Mach 3 fighter project, any idea as to why they never went ahead with it? Too costly? Or too advanced? :-\
Next enormous cost to build and maintain a fleet of Mach 3 Mirage
Was more important problem: lack of Enemy !

The only Mach 3 birds in operations was the SR-71 follow by MIG-25
First was reconnaissance plane and second a interceptor against Mach 3 Bomber, but never catch a SR-71...
The Mach 3 Mirage would be a Interceptor for mach 3 Bomber
but there were no Mach 3 bomber fleet, build XB-70 and Sukhoi T-4 were canceled
next to that the Mach 3 interceptors like YF-12 or XF-108 got also canceled

So ended up the Mach 3 Mirage without enemy and so no need to build it!
 

FighterJock

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Michel Van said:
FighterJock said:
I am surprised that Dassault never actually selected and built a fighter from the Mach 3 fighter project, any idea as to why they never went ahead with it? Too costly? Or too advanced? :-\
Next enormous cost to build and maintain a fleet of Mach 3 Mirage
Was more important problem: lack of Enemy !

The only Mach 3 birds in operations was the SR-71 follow by MIG-25
First was reconnaissance plane and second a interceptor against Mach 3 Bomber, but never catch a SR-71...
The Mach 3 Mirage would be a Interceptor for mach 3 Bomber
but there were no Mach 3 bomber fleet, build XB-70 and Sukhoi T-4 were canceled
next to that the Mach 3 interceptors like YF-12 or XF-108 got also canceled

So ended up the Mach 3 Mirage without enemy and so no need to build it!
Thanks for clearing that up Michel Van.
 

blackkite

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Hi! Dassault MD-750.

https://twitter.com/fanaaviationmag/status/664743427511296000

http://renax-sharkit.blogspot.jp/2012/01/md-750-par-phil-martin.html

http://alternathistory.com/projekt-istrebitelya-perekhvatchika-dassault-md-750-frantsiya?utm_source=warfiles.ru
"The Dassault fighter-interceptor project MD-750.
The first drafts of the French fighter aircraft, capable of speeds of M = 3.0, date back to the year 1958. In this year the Nord Aviation companies and Dassault were presented preliminary designs fighter Super Griffon and Mirage VIA (the latter was supposed to have a take-off mass 13 tons and power plant as the Super Atar TURBOJET ENGINE with a thrust of 9 tons). The program was closed and then restarted only in 1964 a year after the appearance of fighter-interceptor MiG-25 and the razvedchika SR-71.

In February 1964 the year Pierre Mesmerom (Pierre Mesmer)-Defence Minister under President de Gaulle-Centre perspective forecasting and evaluation (CPE-Centre de Prospective et d'Évaluation). The Centre is headed by Hugo de l'Jestual (Hughes de l'Estoile), which May 25, 1965 year drew attention to the research
"aircraft, capable of flying at high Mach numbers.
It appeared that the aircraft will be commissioned in the year 1980 and will serve as the interceptor, long-range reconnaissance aircraft and to serve as a strategic tool to air attack. In August 1967 the year CPE became BPE (Bureau [Bureau] has replaced Centre [Centre]). Royal Air Force operated soon, but officers quickly pointed out that the draft is fairly vague and that it is easier to create a rocket capable of develop the same speed. In fact, aircraft, capable of developing speeds of M = 3.0. 4.0, interest to perform police duties in the sky in case of trehmahovyh civilian aircraft.

November 22, 1965 year promising aircraft Bureau (BPA-Bureau Prospective Air) French air force gave a favourable opinion, clearly indicating that this should be the study without issuing a Passport program (fiche-programme). The result was the announcement of December 14, 1965 year leadership of CPE competition attended by the company Dassault Breguet Aviation, Nord and Sud Aviation. In May 1966 year, Dassault and Sud Aviation had submitted their proposals.

The company Matra and Thomson were invited to develop missiles and radar. The company Thomson unveiled a fixed antenna with electronic scanning (this type of antennas now installed on Rafale fighters), and research the company Matra has served as the basis for creating Super 530.

Ten were considered variants of the powerplant, including sharing of turbojet and highly integrated air-jet engines; of these ten eight options were offered by SNECMA. One version of the project was developed on the basis of installed on SR-71 J58 engine. Other versions of the draft were based on the application engine TF306: this was a TURBOJET ENGINE development TF30, installed on experimental airplanes Mirage F2 and Mirage G and gave the company SNECMA experience works on creation M53-a successor to the original engine. One of the options of the project had 43-LZ1 have two motors M53.

If the company Sud Aviation quickly eliminated from the game, then Dassault vice versa has begun to develop a large number of preliminary draft aircraft that can reach speeds of M = 4.0, and the first proposals were submitted by October 19, 1966 year. It was the first time French engineers used computers to calculate flight trajectories and characteristics of the aircraft.

The Dassault company studies of thermal resistance design, and it was suggested that the use of steel and titanium using cell fillers, panels which were tested in termoustanovke.

However, projects the company Dassault encountered distrust and skepticism on the part of the air force, whose officials have expressed their doubts in June 1967 year. Construction of a fighter with a top speed of M = 4.0 in terms of works on creation of structural materials, aircraft engines and its takeoff weight (one of the projects-MZ1-46Q-exceed 40 tons) went beyond the capacity of the industrial the capacity of France. In addition, hostile aircraft-before fighter, flying at a speed of M = 3.0, his catch-invaded deep into France would be at 400 km. Therefore, there was little information projects-in fact they were both would be classified. Just recognized that, at least on paper, there are studies on this topic.

After done in 1967-68 years works Dassault was awarded 5 million francs on more specific and less ambitious program called SAME (Système Avion Mach Élevé): issue with speed M = 4.0 no longer stood, was chosen the range M = 2.5- 3.0 or M = 3.0-3.5.

February 19, 1969 year company Dassault twin-engine aircraft project was presented with a triangular wing, receiving the designation MD-750. Maximum speed of the aircraft was supposed to be M = 3.5 and time-to-height 16000 meters was supposed to be 5-6 minutes; In addition, it was planned that at the speed of 3.2 M = aircraft able to fly 10 minutes.
It seems like it is in this context that in June 1969 year in the magazine "Aviation Magazine painted were represented by Alan Ratino (Alain Ratineau) schema MD-750 in three projections. Any comments to diagrams. In the same year, during the same year, the air show in Le Bourget airplane model was presented at the stand of the company Dassault. Air plane immediately appropriated the designation "Super Mirage 6000" and "Mega Mirage.

The aircraft was supposed to be for fighter-interceptor, which would be similar to the Mirage IV bomber driving dimensions. Also MD-fighter-interceptor 750 should be flexible (two engines M-53) by plane with deltavidnym wing and tail feathers development.

MD-750 was supposed to be located in front of the air intake front fuselage (nose and cockpit) with the classical rectangular cross-section for the company. This similarity of planes ended. Landing gear had to be very large and, most likely, under the wing could pass not bending.
Two air intake should have a rectangular cross-section and remind the air intakes of the MiG-25; the upper part of the inlet was to begin immediately after the cabin and go down at an angle is 20°.

The main chassis (one wheel on each rack) were supposed to be under the wing and consoles, veering to the side of the fuselage, retract into niches, located in the wing and fuselage. Part of the niches of the main Struts, which were supposed to retract the wheels had to be placed at the bottom of the fuselage. When you release the landing gear of the niches the past had closed shutters installed on the fuselage on both sides of them. Front chassis (must also have one wheel) was to get out ahead and be placed under the fuselage at the level of the inlet.

The windshield was supposed to be static and consist of two separate transparent plates separated by a longitudinal arch. Movable canopy part should have been able to swivel its back and drift back up. She also was to consist of two separate elements, separated by a longitudinal arch. In General, a cockpit of the pilot was supposed to resemble the Lantern Canadian skilled fighter-interceptor CF-105.

Under the fuselage had to be placed two fairly large keel; they were supposed to start the main uprights chassis and reach for the rear fuselage gradually decreasing in altitude.
The aircraft was to be equipped with three air brakes. Two brakes had to be positioned on the upper part of the fuselage near the base of the keel, and third brake-in the lower part of the fuselage between the two keels.

However, the project still had little information, and he likely could be advertising the company's progress. As will be discussed further the question of the construction of this aircraft never seriously considered; you did not intend to produce neither prototype nor experimental aircraft.

In the year 1970, the program was deemed too ambitious, and instead was recommended by permitted the elaboration of ACF fighter with take-off weight 16 tons and a maximum speed of M = 2.5. In the framework of this programme was to be built multipurpose Mirage G8, which was to be used as a flying laboratory. Construction for ten years 170 fighter jets capable of flying with the speed of the M = 3, was estimated at 20 billion francs in the year 1969, prices that were up to four times more expensive than had similar effectiveness of the PVO air defense systems. In the SAME year 1971 was closed, despite the fact that Mirage G8 was able to accelerate up to speed (M) = 2.34.

In conclusion, the SAME program was more than an exercise for Design Bureau company Dassault: it showed the futility of seeking high-speed aircraft and helped to define the limits of the industrial potential of the country. Efforts were diverted to create missiles and decked aircraft. However, thanks to this program, SNECMA M53 engines were created, rocket Super 530 d and modern French radars.

http://www.master194.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=90930&start=0
 

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