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Aeronavale projects, early 60's

Archibald

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Found this, here http://frenchnavy.free.fr/projects/jaguar/jaguar_fr.htm (this is a fantastic website!!)

Au début des années 60, la Marine lance le programme "Tactique A Longue Portée" (TALP) pour lequel Dassault propose l'Étendard V monoréacteur qui n'a pas de suite.

En février 1964, la Générale Aéronautique Marcel Dassault (GAMD) est sollicitée pour un projet de l'Aéronautique Navale française d'avion biplace embarqué de Défense Aérienne des Forces Navales Éloignées (DAFNÉ). Il doit pouvoir être utilisé sur un porte-avions du type Clemenceau. L'appareil est prévu pour atteindre une vitesse de Mach 1,4 et patrouiller pendant 1h30.

En mai de la même année, afin de participer à un nouveau programme OTAN destiné aux marines de l'Alliance Atlantique, la société Dassault décide d'étudier, sur ses fonds propres, un appareil biréacteur embarqué doté d'une aile en flèche variable : le MD 800. Ce projet n'a pas de suite.

Translation!!

In the early 60's, the Grench navy launch the "tactique a longue portée" (Tactical long range fighter). Dassault propose the single-engine Etendard V, but the program is scrapped.

In February 1964, the Aeronavale launch another program name "Defense Aerienne des Force Navale Eloignées" (Long Range Air Defence of the Naval Forces). The plane must stay on patrol one and half hour, reach mach 1.4 and land on a clemenceau class carrier.

The same year, in may, a NATO program for the navies of the North Atlantic Alliance is set up. Dassault decided to take part to the competition with the MD-800, a twin-jet, VG wing aircraft. But the program went to nothing.

So we have an Etendard V, another plane named DAFNE (mach 1.4, 1.5 hours patrol time) and the MD-800.

What do you think about that?
 

Archibald

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I thought it could be interesting, in the way of the durandal of Mirage V... anybody interesting?
there was plenty of etendards prototypes, the II, IV and VI powered by different engines combo (Orpheus, atar, 2*gabizo). and now there's an etendard V!!!
 

Jemiba

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If I'm not completely wrong (not impossible, regarding my bad french !), then
DAFNE was the program itself, not an aircraft.

For this program Breguet tendered the Br.120, 3-view and data below :
(The Br.120G was a VG-version of the basic aircraft, I think)
From : J.Cuny "Les Avions Breguet 1940 - 70

And for the Etendard V, maybe Tinwing has an answer ? ;D
 

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Archibald

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Of course, DAFNE was the name of the program... Hey, this Breguet design is new for me! With its 120 number, it just fit between the 1120 Sirocco and the 121 Jaguar! This is very interesting!

Well I have another question...
The Taon last derivatives were the 1100. VTOL were the 1110 (Apterion!), and the Sirocco was 1120. Now we have this design which number is 120 (1200), and the Jaguar is 121 (1210). I now the the maritime patroller Atlantic is 1150... Is there another fighters projects in the 1160-1200 serie?
PS. According to the book "les avions Breguets" the 1130 and 1140 were unknown projects...
 

Archibald

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Well with such project we can see that Breguet was really the ultimate Dassault competitor in France... before beeeing buy by Dassault in 1967!! Aparetently there was a series of design, named Breguet 120 and 122... the Jaguar was the 121! I suppose there's no particular link between these projects... I heard that the Br.121 of 1964 was an evolution of the twin-jet Taon (never know if the twin-jet Taon was the 1001 or 1100!) with more powerfull engine and of course two seats...
 

TinWing

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Archibald said:
Well with such project we can see that Breguet was really the ultimate Dassault competitor in France... before beeeing buy by Dassault in 1967!! Aparetently there was a series of design, named Breguet 120 and 122... the Jaguar was the 121! I suppose there's no particular link between these projects... I heard that the Br.121 of 1964 was an evolution of the twin-jet Taon (never know if the twin-jet Taon was the 1001 or 1100!) with more powerfull engine and of course two seats...
Just to confuse things more....

It is common knowledge that Dassault's competitor to the Br.121 was called the Cavalier. The proposal in question was a twin J85 design, and seems to have been far closer to the eventual Alpha Jet than the Jaguar.

Of course, the "Cavalier" designation was also applied to a series of VSTOL projects from the late 1950s onward.
 

Archibald

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And to confuse things even more, the VTOL cavalier was designed MD-620. The problem is the MD-620 is also the Jericho-1 IRBM produced for Isreal in the 60's!!
 

Jemiba

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Here's the CTOL Cavalier. I would be glad about a source showing the undercarriage ...
 

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Archibald

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The VTOL Cavalier was close to the Harrier but was rejected in favor of the Mirage IIIV...
Lets go back to the main subject of the thread... Anybody about Etendard V and MD-800?
 

overscan

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MD-800 was a 15,000kg shipboard variable-geometry fighter powered by RB.153 turbofans. It was studied for only 1 year before being submerged into the UK-France AFVG project.

Source:

  • The Annals of the Polymorph (A Short History of Variable Geometry Part 3) Air International May 1975
 

Archibald

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Merci! Quite logical it merged into the AFVG considering its era (1964) and characteristics (VG, two turbofans of 6000 kgp each).
 

Archibald

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Aparently some of you have the book "les avions breguets". It date back from 1977 and of course is not available, for many years... A nice guy named Marcel Berjon scanned me the article about the 1120 Sirocco. If some of you have this book, can you tell me if the Breguet 1160 / 1170 / 1180 /1190 were fighters projects? And if the serie keep on after the Jagaur, Br. 1210 ?

I know that the 1100 is the Taon, 1110 are VTOL project, 1120 Sirocco, 1130 and 1140 unknown projects (according to the book) and 1150, the maritime patroller Atlantic...
 

overscan

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1160 - Atlantic derived transport
1170 - TALP, a long range subsonic naval bomber, somewhat similar to A-6 in role
1180 - Supersonic naval bomber project, looking like an enlarged Jaguar
1190/91 - Atlantic derived bomber project, alternative to 1180 (!)
120 - DAFNE project as mentioned above
121 - Jaguar
122 - VG project for NATO NMBR4
123 - AEW project
124 - Breguet Airbus
1250 - Flying boat project
126 - Trainer (led to Franco-German Alpha-Jet
 

Archibald

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1170 - TALP, a long range subsonic naval bomber, somewhat similar to A-6 in role
1180 - Supersonic naval bomber project, looking like an enlarged Jaguar
1190/91 - Atlantic derived bomber project, alternative to 1180 (!)
First, thank you very much Overscan! These three are the most interesting for me... Do you have three-view drawings of this three? (maybe if you have the book...)
 

Archibald

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the Br.1170 was for the TALP program? so it was a competitor to the Etendard V from Dassault...
 

Archibald

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Concerning the Etendard V, seeing the Breguet 1170 TALP I suppose that the Dassault plane was an enlarged,heavier, subsonic Etendard...
 

overscan

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I don't have any Etendard books- perhaps one of our French collegues might know more.
 

Archibald

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Another question concern the Etendard IV replacement program. As you know, the Jaguar Skyhawk corsair II and finally Super Etendard were competitors. They all have the same performances (I mean subsonic, attack plane).

1- What I don't understand is why the Mirage G and F-1M were also in the race. These are mach-2 fighters! Did aeronavale wanted to replaced its Crusaders?

2- In every case, I can't find any infos in the Mirage F-1M. I'm asking if a prototype was build (in a similar fashion to the Jaguar M) or if the Aeronavale only tested a land based Mirage F-1?

3- There's another mystery... the Mirage IIIM. I thought it was the same plane as the Mirage V, but the two differs completely...
I suppose Dassault proposed a basic Mirage III with a tail hook (when? in the 60's against the Crusaders?) and strengthened structure...
 

overscan

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The Jaguar is supersonic (Mach 1.5 or so).
 

elmayerle

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Archibald said:
The VTOL Cavalier was close to the Harrier but was rejected in favor of the Mirage IIIV...
Lets go back to the main subject of the thread... Anybody about Etendard V and MD-800?
The first iteration of the VSTOL Cavalier, the MD-610, was close to the Harrier but subsequent iterations used lift jets in the same manner as the Mirage IIIV.
 

Archibald

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According to "Le Fana de L'aviation" late 1997 (about the Mirage III-V)
there was two iterations, the MD-620 and MD-630. The project was closed because aparenty their thrust to weight ration was bad, they could'nt lift off vertically...
 

Jemiba

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IIRC what Jean Cuny wrote, one of the Cavalier designs was in fact STOL.
 
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