Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[bobtdwarf]

Huh. I was under the impression that the H-8 was not strong enough to launch an FJ-4B. Or at least not with anything even approaching a useful bomb load. I know Melbourne, when she was equipped with A-4s, only used them in an A2A role because the BS4 she was equipped with couldn't launch a Skyhawk when it was bombed up and I assumed that the Doorman would be similar given that the A-4E only had a MTOW that was a thousand pounds higher than the FJ-4 (and the Skyhawk had a much larger wing)

A fully bombed-up A-4F Skyhawk (the model the Australian birds were modified from), while 3000 lbs lighter than a bombed-up FJ-4, has about the same stall speed on takeoff, which means in practice the differences in takeoff performance are surprisingly small.

Argentina could fly Skyhawks off of Karel Doorman without unduly modifying her catapult equipment, but the Argentine A-4Q was based on the A-4B, which was another 3000 lbs lighter than the A-4F.

If the Dutch want a new fighter, fast, that's an improvement over the Sea Hawk, their best bet is probably the Cougar. It can't carry as many bombs as far as the Fury, but it's better than nothing and is actually flyable off Karel Doorman. The Argentines did it with Indepencia, thanks to the Cougar being surprisingly gentle on takeoff for a swept-wing jet.

even better!

 

[GTX]

If the Dutch want a new fighter, fast, that's an improvement over the Sea Hawk, their best bet is probably the Cougar.

Not a bad choice but if the war is already starting the ability to acquire a fleet, train crews and get them combat ready is already past.

 

[CV12Hornet]

Not a bad choice but if the war is already starting the ability to acquire a fleet, train crews and get them combat ready is already past.

While true, that's also the case for the Skyhawks the Dutch just tried to get in-story and the Furies they were offered.

 

[bobtdwarf]

If the Dutch want a new fighter, fast, that's an improvement over the Sea Hawk, their best bet is probably the Cougar.

Not a bad choice but if the war is already starting the ability to acquire a fleet, train crews and get them combat ready is already past.

Who did the Dutch aircrews train with? IF they were trained in the US and carrier qualified there then they have some familiarity with the type already from the trainer version

 

[SSgtC]

February 18, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

Karel Doorman's air group, along with the planes of 323 Squadron, are craned aboard the aircraft carrier. While the air group would normally fly out to their ship and trap aboard the carrier, the addition of the dozen Hawker Hunters tied down on every open inch of her flight deck made that impossible. Doorman will deploy to New Guinea with ten Grumman TBF Avengers and fourteen Hawker Sea Hawks with two Sikorsky S-55 Helicopters providing ASW and SAR. Though the Sea Hawks are considered obsolete, they are newly equipped with American Sidewinder infrared guided air-to-air missiles.

An urgent request to the United States for an emergency purchase of Douglas AD Skyraiders or A4D Skyhawks is declined, as the United States Navy does not have enough spare airframes to part with and still meet their own operational needs considering the increasing tensions in the South West Pacific. The United States does offer to provide a squadron's worth of FJ-4Bs to the Netherlands as that aircraft type is being retired from the fleet. But after looking at the weight and performance of the aircraft, the Royal Netherlands Navy is forced to decline, as Karel Doorman would be unable to launch the Fury with a useful bomb load.

Several objections are made to deploying the Doorman with strike aircraft that first saw service in World War Two, but political considerations overrule the operational concerns. The Netherlands has to be seen to respond to Indonesian aggression in the region, and the best, and indeed only, way to do so was by deploying a carrier battle group to the region.

Are you positive on that? FJ-4B routinely launched from H-8 cats.. This is a section from a book by an FJ-4 pilot that transitioned to A-4's later.. As I understand KD's cats they should be able to launch the Fury with at least a 2/3's bomb load and a full A2A one.




Kearsarge was equipped with two of the old H-8 hydraulic catapults. To prepare for launch, you taxied onto the start of a 225-foot slot in the carrier’s deck that was the catapult track. A bridle made up of inch-thick steel wires was hooked to one point on each side of the plane’s fuselage (near the main mounts) and into the curved mouth on the front of the shuttle plate that rode the slot in the carrier’s deck. The shuttle was attached to a piston situated in a long tube underneath the catapult track.


The holdback fitting, a piece of ceramic that looked very much like a weight lifter’s dumbbell, was slipped into a slot under the plane’s tail and attached to the deck with another steel cable. The shuttle was then tensioned—hydraulics moved it forward until the bridle was taut. At this point, the plane squatted from the forward pressure of the shuttle fighting against the strength of the holdback fitting. A huge steel blast deflector, located a few feet behind the plane, was then raised up at a steep angle.

When the crew was ready to shoot you off the bow, the yellow-shirted catapult officer stepped over in front of your wing to prove you wouldn’t be fired off until you were ready. He then raised one arm over his head and twirled two fingers. You shoved the throttle forward to 100 percent power and grabbed a small metal rod that stuck out of the cockpit wall slightly ahead of the throttle. You held the throttle head and that metal rod together in your left hand to make sure that your hand, and the throttle, didn’t fly backward when the cat fired.

After a quick check of the engine instruments, you gave the cat officer a salute with your right hand. Then you tucked your right elbow into your gut and set your hand behind the stick; you didn’t want it to come back in your lap on the cat shot.

The cat officer stepped away from in front of your wing, fingers still twirling over his head, and made sure your path was clear. Then he made a balletlike sweeping motion that took him down on one knee, face and arm toward the bow. His outstretched fingers touched the deck…and the cat fired.


In that instant the hydraulic catapult distinguished itself from the more modern steam catapult. The “slug” that caught the shuttle and pushed you down the cat track started from a point about 20 feet behind your plane. It had accelerated to full bore by the time it picked up the shuttle—and you—on its way to the end of the track and a final speed of about 165 mph. When this force hit you, the holdback fitting snapped in two; it didn’t even slow the shuttle down.

The first time this happened, I blacked out. I woke up about 60 feet above the water, flying. I was so thrilled that I keyed the UHF radio button and yelled “Yah-hoo!”

Huh. I was under the impression that the H-8 was not strong enough to launch an FJ-4B. Or at least not with anything even approaching a useful bomb load. I know Melbourne, when she was equipped with A-4s, only used them in an A2A role because the BS4 she was equipped with couldn't launch a Skyhawk when it was bombed up and I assumed that the Doorman would be similar given that the A-4E only had a MTOW that was a thousand pounds higher than the FJ-4 (and the Skyhawk had a much larger wing)

FJ-4 and 4B had wing areas of 338 sq.ft A4 was 259... some of the limit on the A4 may be coming from how lightly framed she was, her maximum G load at launch I think was lower than some other aircraft.. not saying she wasn't a sturdy bird in combat but am kind of saying you could rip her face off easier than some others

Ugh. I got the numbers backwards. That's a good point about their frames. That's possible. And turns out I should have checked some other cruise books. Essex (a -27A carrier) deployed in 1958 with both A-4s and FJ-4s as part of her air group

 

[Arjen]

Range for the Friesland-class, from wiki, was 4,000 nautical miles at 20 knots. Straight line distance between Cape Town and Fremantle ~4,700 nautical miles. Tanker on station midway?

Get HMAS Supply to meet the Dutch task force. In OTL, it's still seconded to the Royal Navy - some political bait-and-switch needed.

 

[_Del_]

If the Dutch want a new fighter, fast, that's an improvement over the Sea Hawk, their best bet is probably the Cougar.

Not a bad choice but if the war is already starting the ability to acquire a fleet, train crews and get them combat ready is already past.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

The Israelis in the midst of the Yom Kippur War almost took delivery of USN Crusaders right off the decks during Nickel Grass when things looked most dire. Fortunately, the EW front made major steps forward quickly, and Skyhawks and Phantoms (some right from USAFE stock) were sufficient to plug the gap.

 

[SSgtC]

Range for the Friesland-class, from wiki, was 4,000 nautical miles at 20 knots. Straight line distance between Cape Town and Fremantle ~4,700 nautical miles. Tanker on station midway?

Get HMAS Supply to meet the Dutch task force. In OTL, it's still seconded to the Royal Navy - some political bait-and-switch needed.

That's a pretty good idea. Either an RFA oiler or an American one can meet up with the Dutch ships and top them up enroute

 

[Volkodav]

Interesting about the FJ-4B being able to fly off Doorman, makes a national CAC Avon FJ-4B for Melbourne and Sydney sound even more attractive to my twisted could have been imagination.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Huh. I was under the impression that the H-8 was not strong enough to launch an FJ-4B. Or at least not with anything even approaching a useful bomb load. I know Melbourne, when she was equipped with A-4s, only used them in an A2A role because the BS4 she was equipped with couldn't launch a Skyhawk when it was bombed up and I assumed that the Doorman would be similar given that the A-4E only had a MTOW that was a thousand pounds higher than the FJ-4 (and the Skyhawk had a much larger wing)

A fully bombed-up A-4F Skyhawk (the model the Australian birds were modified from), while 3000 lbs lighter than a bombed-up FJ-4, has about the same stall speed on takeoff, which means in practice the differences in takeoff performance are surprisingly small.

Argentina could fly Skyhawks off of Karel Doorman without unduly modifying her catapult equipment, but the Argentine A-4Q was based on the A-4B, which was another 3000 lbs lighter than the A-4F.

If the Dutch want a new fighter, fast, that's an improvement over the Sea Hawk, their best bet is probably the Cougar. It can't carry as many bombs as far as the Fury, but it's better than nothing and is actually flyable off Karel Doorman. The Argentines did it with Indepencia, thanks to the Cougar being surprisingly gentle on takeoff for a swept-wing jet.

CV12Hornet
Our naval aviation never operates the F9F from the ARA Independencia, with regularity. (Colossu class with the original cat) Catapult did not have enough power.
Only one pilot do a landing on it
This is the only phot of the F9F on Independencia
I would have liked this image to be the normality.
I almost sure that the Karel, with her BS4, could operarted the F9F and Fj-4.
We almost launch and attack (falklands / malvinas war) with A-4Q from the ARA 25 de Mayo former KD) : the load was set: 6 x 227 snake eyes and 2 x1300lts drops tanks.
Due to the lack of wind and the top speed of 20 knots of the aircraft carrier, the load of the aircraft began to decrease, until it reached a point where the attack was cancel.

 

[Archibald]

Do you mean the F9F ? F8F was the Bearcat, piston-propeller driven

(fun story: France got some of them in Indochina, not the Aéronavale which had Corsairs, but the Armée de l'Air. French pilots there mispronounced the name into BIR-CAT, and saw their US counterparts laughing. Indeed, the French had invented the BEER-CAT).
Le chat à bière...

 

[alejandrogrossi]

Do you mean the F9F ? F8F was the Bearcat, piston-propeller driven

(fun story: France got some of them in Indochina, not the Aéronavale which had Corsairs, but the Armée de l'Air. French pilots there mispronounced the name into BIR-CAT, and saw their US counterparts laughing. Indeed, the French had invented the BEER-CAT).
Le chat à bière...

Archibal.
if the ask is for me
yes I wrong the numer.
Our F9F

 

[bobtdwarf]

Interesting about the FJ-4B being able to fly off Doorman, makes a national CAC Avon FJ-4B for Melbourne and Sydney sound even more attractive to my twisted could have been imagination.

I mention this for no particular reason... 12,000 pounds of thrust pushes the FJ-4/B to mach 1.41 according to the rocket boosted tests.... no reason to mention this at all

 

[CV12Hornet]

I suppose I should also mention, for no reason at all, that the Avon 301 used on the later-model Lightning and Draken fighters is almost the same size as the FJ-4's J65 engine...

 

[SSgtC]

Interesting about the FJ-4B being able to fly off Doorman, makes a national CAC Avon FJ-4B for Melbourne and Sydney sound even more attractive to my twisted could have been imagination.

I mention this for no particular reason... 12,000 pounds of thrust pushes the FJ-4/B to mach 1.41 according to the rocket boosted tests.... no reason to mention this at all

Yes, but the Fury is a design that is absolutely maxed out. It has no more room for growth. I don't even think you could get even an afterburning J65 into the airframe without major surgery. The J65-W-18 as fitted to the F11F was some five feet longer than the standard J65 and it was also some 4.5" wider. There really isn't much point in trying to squeeze ever more performance out of a design that had its origins in the late 40s when there are far more modern and capable designs available

 

[bobtdwarf]

Interesting about the FJ-4B being able to fly off Doorman, makes a national CAC Avon FJ-4B for Melbourne and Sydney sound even more attractive to my twisted could have been imagination.

I mention this for no particular reason... 12,000 pounds of thrust pushes the FJ-4/B to mach 1.41 according to the rocket boosted tests.... no reason to mention this at all

Yes, but the Fury is a design that is absolutely maxed out. It has no more room for growth. I don't even think you could get even an afterburning J65 into the airframe without major surgery. The J65-W-18 as fitted to the F11F was some five feet longer than the standard J65 and it was also some 4.5" wider. There really isn't much point in trying to squeeze ever more performance out of a design that had its origins in the late 40s when there are far more modern and capable designs available

That is true, she has almost ZERO room for growth, though North American did look at stuffing a TF-30 into a version of the airframe for the competition that lead to the A-7 there really is not much room for avionics beyond maybe a tiny radar in the 4F's nose for the guns and to keep you from bumping into stuff in bad weather at best. The best you could really expect is to re-engine with like a J-52 and keep within the air intakes volume limit (that Avon 301 would be SWEEET but breaths to heavy sadly), that would give you about a 15% boost in range from better SFC and a useful boost to thrust... so there are applications in some AH scenarios to get more useful hours out of those aircraft.

This thread has already given me some interesting ideas regarding use of re-engined and reinforced Cougars.

 

[bobtdwarf]

I suppose I should also mention, for no reason at all, that the Avon 301 used on the later-model Lightning and Draken fighters is almost the same size as the FJ-4's J65 engine...

just the mutual musings of deranged minds lol...you know the kind that are frequently followed by "hold my beer"

 

[lordroel]

February 18, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

Karel Doorman's air group, along with the planes of 323 Squadron, are craned aboard the aircraft carrier. While the air group would normally fly out to their ship and trap aboard the carrier, the addition of the dozen Hawker Hunters tied down on every open inch of her flight deck made that impossible. Doorman will deploy to New Guinea with ten Grumman TBF Avengers and fourteen Hawker Sea Hawks with two Sikorsky S-55 Helicopters providing ASW and SAR. Though the Sea Hawks are considered obsolete, they are newly equipped with American Sidewinder infrared guided air-to-air missiles.

An urgent request to the United States for an emergency purchase of Douglas AD Skyraiders or A4D Skyhawks is declined, as the United States Navy does not have enough spare airframes to part with and still meet their own operational needs considering the increasing tensions in the South West Pacific. The United States does offer to provide a squadron's worth of FJ-4Bs to the Netherlands as that aircraft type is being retired from the fleet. But after looking at the weight and performance of the aircraft, the Royal Netherlands Navy is forced to decline, as Karel Doorman would be unable to launch the Fury with a useful bomb load.

Several objections are made to deploying the Doorman with strike aircraft that first saw service in World War Two, but political considerations overrule the operational concerns. The Netherlands has to be seen to respond to Indonesian aggression in the region, and the best, and indeed only, way to do so was by deploying a carrier battle group to the region.

So what would the British be able to sell that would be a upgrade to the current Netherlands carrier fighters.

 

[SSgtC]

February 18, 1959
Den Helder Naval Base, Netherlands

Karel Doorman's air group, along with the planes of 323 Squadron, are craned aboard the aircraft carrier. While the air group would normally fly out to their ship and trap aboard the carrier, the addition of the dozen Hawker Hunters tied down on every open inch of her flight deck made that impossible. Doorman will deploy to New Guinea with ten Grumman TBF Avengers and fourteen Hawker Sea Hawks with two Sikorsky S-55 Helicopters providing ASW and SAR. Though the Sea Hawks are considered obsolete, they are newly equipped with American Sidewinder infrared guided air-to-air missiles.

An urgent request to the United States for an emergency purchase of Douglas AD Skyraiders or A4D Skyhawks is declined, as the United States Navy does not have enough spare airframes to part with and still meet their own operational needs considering the increasing tensions in the South West Pacific. The United States does offer to provide a squadron's worth of FJ-4Bs to the Netherlands as that aircraft type is being retired from the fleet. But after looking at the weight and performance of the aircraft, the Royal Netherlands Navy is forced to decline, as Karel Doorman would be unable to launch the Fury with a useful bomb load.

Several objections are made to deploying the Doorman with strike aircraft that first saw service in World War Two, but political considerations overrule the operational concerns. The Netherlands has to be seen to respond to Indonesian aggression in the region, and the best, and indeed only, way to do so was by deploying a carrier battle group to the region.

So what would the British be able to sell that would be a upgrade to the current Netherlands carrier fighters.

The only aircraft that the UK has that is both a upgrade to what the Dutch have and can operate off the Doorman is maybe the Scimitar. And even then, that's questionable (the Scimitar's empty weight is the same as an FJ-4's gross weight)

 

[zen]

So what would the British be able to sell that would be a upgrade to the current Netherlands carrier fighters.

Sea Venom, some could be wired for Firestreak.
Scimitar and Sea Vixen are in progress to IOC on Victorious, but they are too big and heavy/higher TO&L speeds.

Unless this timeline has DH.116 actually progressed instead.

Now had that gone ahead from '52 it would be IOC by '57.

Another AH is hooked Swifts. Turn like barges and a nasty pitch-up issue but certainly fast.

 

[zen]

The only aircraft that the UK has that is both a upgrade to what the Dutch have and can operate off the Doorman is maybe the Scimitar. And even then, that's questionable (the Scimitar's empty weight is the same as an FJ-4's gross weight)

Scimitar would require RATOG and would be very marginal on recovery on Karel Doorman.

 

[SSgtC]

So what would the British be able to sell that would be a upgrade to the current Netherlands carrier fighters.

Sea Venom, some could be wired for Firestreak.
Scimitar and Sea Vixen are in progress to IOC on Victorious, but they are too big and heavy/higher TO&L speeds.

Unless this timeline has DH.116 actually progressed instead.

Now had that gone ahead from '52 it would be IOC by '57.

Another AH is hooked Swifts. Turn like barges and a nasty pitch-up issue but certainly fast.

Sea Vixen is far too big, over 45,000 pounds at take off. Sea Venom can operate off her, but the plane, other than in range, is a downgrade from the Sea Hawks that Doorman is already equipped with (slower, lower ceiling, lower bomb load)

 

[GTX]

Of course one option for the Dutch would be to team up with Australia, the UK and USA in a 1950/60s revamp of American-British-Dutch-Australian (ABDA) Command though hopefully with a better result than that in WWII. Thus one could conceivably see US or UK or Australian crews and aircraft also operating from Karel Doorman or perhaps one of theses (say USN) providing the air defence component of a combined fleet.

 

[zen]

Sea Vixen is far too big, over 45,000 pounds at take off. Sea Venom can operate off her, but the plane, other than in range, is a downgrade from the Sea Hawks that Doorman is already equipped with (slower, lower ceiling, lower bomb load)

Yes I said that.
On Sea Venom, this is a two seater FAW, so bombing is not it's main focus. Sea Hawk by contrast has no second seat or AI radar.

 

[starviking]

So what would the British be able to sell that would be a upgrade to the current Netherlands carrier fighters.

The weight limits on Colossus-class carriers, as shown by their operated aircraft, would seem to rule out current or projected British aircraft for this era. However, the SR177 is pretty close in weights to the Super Etendard, which was on the margins of operation for Veinticinco de Mayo, though the catapult was not capable of operational launches (per Wiki).

However, I don’t think SR177 proceeded in this timeline, and if the timeline stays close to ours at this stage, for aircraft development at least, then all we have from the UK is the Hawker p1127, and that at least 5 years from deployment.

 

[_Del_]

My vote is just scrounging more Sea Hawks and Sea Furies from the RN. Unless they take the USN old stock FJ's.

Either way, there is hardly enough time to move them into the theatre, never mind order and produce a new type fresh off a production line. That might be a long-term goal, but does nothing for the immediate need.

 

[isayyo2]

An urgent request to the United States for an emergency purchase of Douglas AD Skyraiders or A4D Skyhawks is declined, as the United States Navy does not have enough spare airframes to part with and still meet their own operational needs considering the increasing tensions in the South West Pacific. The United States does offer to provide a squadron's worth of FJ-4Bs to the Netherlands as that aircraft type is being retired from the fleet.

I would like to double check to see if there actually were any spare FJ-4s and FJ-4B's anywhere in Feb. 59. Going off of Joe Baugher's sources, the last FJ-4B rolled off the line in May 1958. The various VA squadrons that flew FJ-4B's did not start the transition into A4D-2's until mid to late 59, going until 1962. There maybe some early FJ-4's from VMF-235 that transitioned backwards to FJ-3M's in 57 and then F8U-1's in 58; or they could have been gobbled up by the other VMF's that operated the daylight fighter FJ-4.

With Karl Doorman recently receiving a BS4 steam catapult, the added weight of more modern planes (FJ-3M,4,4B/F9F-8/A4D) shouldn't be an issue?

 

[SSgtC]

An urgent request to the United States for an emergency purchase of Douglas AD Skyraiders or A4D Skyhawks is declined, as the United States Navy does not have enough spare airframes to part with and still meet their own operational needs considering the increasing tensions in the South West Pacific. The United States does offer to provide a squadron's worth of FJ-4Bs to the Netherlands as that aircraft type is being retired from the fleet.

I would like to double check to see if there actually were any spare FJ-4s and FJ-4B's anywhere in Feb. 59. Going off of Joe Baugher's sources, the last FJ-4B rolled off the line in May 1958. The various VA squadrons that flew FJ-4B's did not start the transition into A4D-2's until mid to late 59, going until 1962. There maybe some early FJ-4's from VMF-235 that transitioned backwards to FJ-3M's in 57 and then F8U-1's in 58; or they could have been gobbled up by the other VMF's that operated the daylight fighter FJ-4.

With Karl Doorman recently receiving a BS4 steam catapult, the added weight of more modern planes (FJ-3M,4,4B/F9F-8/A4D) shouldn't be an issue?

Several VF squadrons were transitioning from the FJ-3M/FJ-4 to other types at this time. For example, VF-62 made their last cruise with the FJ-3M onboard Essex in 59-60. So it would be possible to, say, send their Furies to Europe and transition them to the F8U-2 a bit earlier than IOTL. Or you could take the FJ-3s from VA-94 and send those since that squadron transitioned from the Fury to the A-4 beginning in January, 1959. Or possibly the FJ-4Bs from VA-214, which had been disestablished in August, 1958. So there were airframes available to do something like this. I'm just not sure Doorman could handle them in an attack role. Particularly in the hot and humid conditions found in the Southwest Pacific

 

[Volkodav]

Do you mean the F9F ? F8F was the Bearcat, piston-propeller driven

(fun story: France got some of them in Indochina, not the Aéronavale which had Corsairs, but the Armée de l'Air. French pilots there mispronounced the name into BIR-CAT, and saw their US counterparts laughing. Indeed, the French had invented the BEER-CAT).
Le chat à bière...

Personally I love the French pronunciation of Qantas with the QA sounding out as Cu.

 

[alejandrogrossi]

So what would the British be able to sell that would be a upgrade to the current Netherlands carrier fighters.

The weight limits on Colossus-class carriers, as shown by their operated aircraft, would seem to rule out current or projected British aircraft for this era. However, the SR177 is pretty close in weights to the Super Etendard, which was on the margins of operation for Veinticinco de Mayo, though the catapult was not capable of operational launches (per Wiki).

However, I don’t think SR177 proceeded in this timeline, and if the timeline stays close to ours at this stage, for aircraft development at least, then all we have from the UK is the Hawker p1127, and that at least 5 years from deplit went.

Starviking
the ARA 25 de mayo launches SUE


Here un link to video, from the face page of ARA 25 de mayo (Most ex former sailors)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=269995745065932

View: https://www.facebook.com/100001810803715/videos/269995745065932

Click on link

 

[zen]

Etendard with reheat would easily launch even without WOD.

F.177 would be impressive, especially if lighting up reheat and rocket motor! Possible TO without catapult....

 

[Archibald]

Do you mean the F9F ? F8F was the Bearcat, piston-propeller driven

(fun story: France got some of them in Indochina, not the Aéronavale which had Corsairs, but the Armée de l'Air. French pilots there mispronounced the name into BIR-CAT, and saw their US counterparts laughing. Indeed, the French had invented the BEER-CAT).
Le chat à bière...

Personally I love the French pronunciation of Qantas with the QA sounding out as Cu.

C-ou-antas - when you think about it, it sounds more like spanish, as in "cuantos tienes ?"

We say "quatre" as "catre" not "couatre". Weird... or maybe it's because of "earthquake" - èrsecouèque ?

And now I'm reminded of this scene...

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlIz0q8aWpA

 

[lordroel]

So what would the British be able to sell that would be a upgrade to the current Netherlands carrier fighters.

The weight limits on Colossus-class carriers, as shown by their operated aircraft, would seem to rule out current or projected British aircraft for this era. However, the SR177 is pretty close in weights to the Super Etendard, which was on the margins of operation for Veinticinco de Mayo, though the catapult was not capable of operational launches (per Wiki).

However, I don’t think SR177 proceeded in this timeline, and if the timeline stays close to ours at this stage, for aircraft development at least, then all we have from the UK is the Hawker p1127, and that at least 5 years from deplit went.

Starviking
the ARA 25 de mayo launches SUE
View attachment 670688
View attachment 670689
Here un link to video, from the face page of ARA 25 de mayo (Most ex former sailors)

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=269995745065932

View: https://www.facebook.com/100001810803715/videos/269995745065932

Click on link

As much as i would like to see A-4s taking of Doorman, @SSgtC on a other forum already made it clear the US Navy could not transfer an entire squadron of Skyhawks to the Netherlands, also training pilots from Avengers to Skyhawks is not done overnight.

 

[JFC Fuller]

F.177 would be impressive, especially if lighting up reheat and rocket motor! Possible TO without catapult....

P.177N is a non-starter for any 1942 light fleet carrier. AUW was over 25,000lb as of 1956 and from a 151ft catapult, even with improved launching valve and wet accumulator, it would need in excess of 10 knots of wind over deck. Thats before we get to the ugliness of having to include HTP storage and handling gear in the ship.

Your Hooked Swift idea potentially has more merit, the RN did consider asking for a fully navalised (e.g. more navalised than just having a tail hook - so beyond the Hooked Swift) Swift to be designed in case something was needed prior to the Scimitar being ready, shame the Swift was such a dog. In an ideal world, Hawker's Sea Hawk would have been followed in production by a navalised P.1081 at the earliest opportunity, that would have given a reasonably high-performance type that could be kept under 20,000lbs AUW.

 

[zen]

P.177N is a non-starter for any 1942 light fleet carrier. AUW was over 25,000lb as of 1956 and from a 151ft catapult, even with improved launching valve and wet accumulator, it would need in excess of 10 knots of wind over deck. Thats before we get to the ugliness of having to include HTP storage and handling gear for the rocket fuel in the ship.

True if the deck wasn't strengthened for such weight.
But power to weight ratio of reheat and rocket together is enough for a TO in 25kts WOD with a run from the stern I suspect.

Your Hooked Swift idea potentially has more merit, the RN did consider asking for a fully navalised (e.g. more navalised than just having a tail hook - so beyond the Hooked Swift) Swift to be designed in case something was needed prior to the Scimitar being ready, shame the Swift was such a dog. In an ideal world, Hawker's Sea Hawk would have been followed in production by a navalised P.1081 at the earliest opportunity, that would have given a reasonably high-performance type that could be kept under 20,000lbs AUW.

Well despite it's poor performance at altitude the Swift was quite decent and rugged at low level.

P.1081 however solves a lot.

 

[_Del_]

Several VF squadrons were transitioning from the FJ-3M/FJ-4 to other types at this time. For example,...

There were also a whole mess of (well over 100) FJ-2 airframes that are already out of reserve units (being replaced by the -3's) which has zero impact at all on the USN capability. Not ideal, but again, "any port in a storm", and buys you time to gather -3's and -4's. When you take delivery of the -3 and -4 units, you can send the -2 ashore where the low-speed handling isn't as critical (which is why the Marines ended up with a slew of the -2's).

Even if the Dutch Navy increase their capacity and run 2 squadrons on deck and one ashore, we're only talking about 50 airframes (including some spares) to scrounge from reserve units or the boneyard. They're only running a comparative handful of Seahawks.

And I'm not sure how critical it is to launch them (FJ's in general) as fighter-bombers, because they are so much more capable as fighters, it frees your Seahawks to transition to the strike role. Send the Sea Furies ashore for COIN work. Avengers continue their ASW role.

 

[isayyo2]

So there were airframes available to do something like this. I'm just not sure Doorman could handle them in an attack role. Particularly in the hot and humid conditions found in the Southwest Pacific

Just my two cents on future acquisitions of the Royal Netherlands Navy

1. Immediate delivery of FGA.6 Sea Hawk's with AIM-9Bs
2. Short term acquisition of FJ-3M/FJ-4s before the end of 1959; F9F-8s are an alternative, though they are a bit larger and slower than the Fury's
4. Within 24 months, acquire new built A4D-2's, or used A4D-1's if exceedingly desperate.
5. Long term goal: Aquire one SCB-125 Essex to replace the Doorman

Should the Netherlands find the funding and political will for an Essex, would anyone like to guess what her air group may be?

~Circa 1964 F-11A, A-4B, S-2, E-1, SH-3
The F-11As and A-4Bs have compatibility with their J65s, I'd also be curious if the uprated J65-W-20 with 8400 lb.f of thrust could be fitted with an afterburner and stuffed into an F-11? Not quite a Super Tiger, but a bit less intensive and could be modified in country by Fokker; same goes for modernizing the A-4B's into A-4L's.

 

[zen]

The F-11As and A-4Bs have compatibility with their J65s, I'd also be curious if the uprated J65-W-20 with 8400 lb.f of thrust could be fitted with an afterburner and stuffed into an F-11?

Don't you think they'd knock on Armstrong Siddeley's door and ask about reheated Sapphires and Rolls-Royce's door about alternative Avons?

 

[isayyo2]

Don't you think they'd knock on Armstrong Siddeley's door and ask about reheated Sapphires and Rolls-Royce's door about alternative Avons?

I'm not opposed to the thought, but preserving supply chain and maintenance personnel commonality of the J65 for the small force of Navy F-11s and A-4s is an overriding concern.

Now if the Netherlands wanted to license build Sapphire or Avon powered Tigers and Skyhawk rather than their F-104 and NF-5, I am all for it!

 

[zen]

Errr J65 is a licensed Sapphire.