Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[SSgtC]

A decision for Crusader III would exert influence with the RN and a UK order is the likely outcome instead of the Phantom II.

Very possible. It would certainly be the more logical choice given the size constraints that the RN was working with. Though any Crusader purchase would probably just as much of a CF as the OTL Phantom purchase. Fitting it with the de Haviland Gyron could be a possibility, though it offers slightly less trust than the J75 (27,000 pounds verses 29,500). The holdup would be the RAF. For the RAF, the Phantom is far and away the better choice for their needs. And they would be operating many more aircraft than the FAA would, even if the RN kept a bigger carrier fleet. So it could be a case of the FAA being forced into accepting an aircraft that they don't really want.

 

[Archibald]

Also as a rather extreme suggestion of an aircraft to counter the Indonesians, what about the B58? Did it have a conventional bombing capability, could it have been upgraded with more powerful engines (Speys) and dispense with the Pod.

The Hustler was offered. But the RAAF thought it was just too specialized as a nuclear strategic bomber and that the Vigilante was a more flexible aircraft. They don't need a nuclear bomber (yet), but they do want an aircraft that can get in and get out rapidly while delivering a heavy bomb load.

The Huster was ruinous, dangerous to fly, lacked versatily... the Vigilante is a far, far better bargain. Much closer from future low-level strike aircraft like the F-111 or Mirage IV.
Overall, a "saner" alternative.
(and I say that as a fan of the B-58 !)

 

[zen]

A decision for Crusader III would exert influence with the RN and a UK order is the likely outcome instead of the Phantom II.

Very possible. It would certainly be the more logical choice given the size constraints that the RN was working with. Though any Crusader purchase would probably just as much of a CF as the OTL Phantom purchase. Fitting it with the de Haviland Gyron could be a possibility, though it offers slightly less trust than the J75 (27,000 pounds verses 29,500). The holdup would be the RAF. For the RAF, the Phantom is far and away the better choice for their needs. And they would be operating many more aircraft than the FAA would, even if the RN kept a bigger carrier fleet. So it could be a case of the FAA being forced into accepting an aircraft that they don't really want.

Forced?
Hardly considering the period. This can meet their needs and quickly as the 'quick and easy' F4K and much more likely even with a UK engine to not spiral out of cost or time estimates.

As for engines.
Bristol.OL.21R or Ol.22R
Rolls-Royce Conway
Rolls-Royce Medway

DeHaviland Gyron, which certainly can be uprated.

Of these commonality with OR.339 TSR.2 is likely the answer.
Though by the early 60’s the Medway was being slated for the Viggen and likely RR had eyes on toppling Bristol's dominance.

Though Vought did produce a Crusader variant design for the RN at this time using a reheated RR Conway., with Thunderchief style inlets. With a ventral recess for a nuclear bomb....

 

[SSgtC]

A decision for Crusader III would exert influence with the RN and a UK order is the likely outcome instead of the Phantom II.

Very possible. It would certainly be the more logical choice given the size constraints that the RN was working with. Though any Crusader purchase would probably just as much of a CF as the OTL Phantom purchase. Fitting it with the de Haviland Gyron could be a possibility, though it offers slightly less trust than the J75 (27,000 pounds verses 29,500). The holdup would be the RAF. For the RAF, the Phantom is far and away the better choice for their needs. And they would be operating many more aircraft than the FAA would, even if the RN kept a bigger carrier fleet. So it could be a case of the FAA being forced into accepting an aircraft that they don't really want.

Forced?
Hardly considering the period. This can meet their needs and quickly as the 'quick and easy' F4K and much more likely even with a UK engine to not spiral out of cost or time estimates.

As for engines.
Bristol.OL.21R or Ol.22R
Rolls-Royce Conway
Rolls-Royce Medway

DeHaviland Gyron, which certainly can be uprated.

Of these commonality with OR.339 TSR.2 is likely the answer.
Though by the early 60’s the Medway was being slated for the Viggen and likely RR had eyes on toppling Bristol's dominance.

Though Vought did produce a Crusader variant design for the RN at this time using a reheated RR Conway., with Thunderchief style inlets. With a ventral recess for a nuclear bomb....

No, I mean that the FAA may be forced into accepting the Phantom when they would prefer the Super Crusader for the simple fact that the UK can't afford to buy two different fighters.

 

[zen]

A decision for Crusader III would exert influence with the RN and a UK order is the likely outcome instead of the Phantom II.

Very possible. It would certainly be the more logical choice given the size constraints that the RN was working with. Though any Crusader purchase would probably just as much of a CF as the OTL Phantom purchase. Fitting it with the de Haviland Gyron could be a possibility, though it offers slightly less trust than the J75 (27,000 pounds verses 29,500). The holdup would be the RAF. For the RAF, the Phantom is far and away the better choice for their needs. And they would be operating many more aircraft than the FAA would, even if the RN kept a bigger carrier fleet. So it could be a case of the FAA being forced into accepting an aircraft that they don't really want.

Forced?
Hardly considering the period. This can meet their needs and quickly as the 'quick and easy' F4K and much more likely even with a UK engine to not spiral out of cost or time estimates.

As for engines.
Bristol.OL.21R or Ol.22R
Rolls-Royce Conway
Rolls-Royce Medway

DeHaviland Gyron, which certainly can be uprated.

Of these commonality with OR.339 TSR.2 is likely the answer.
Though by the early 60’s the Medway was being slated for the Viggen and likely RR had eyes on toppling Bristol's dominance.

Though Vought did produce a Crusader variant design for the RN at this time using a reheated RR Conway., with Thunderchief style inlets. With a ventral recess for a nuclear bomb....

No, I mean that the FAA may be forced into accepting the Phantom when they would prefer the Super Crusader for the simple fact that the UK can't afford to buy two different fighters.

?
There's no need for the F4 at that time.
Until 1965, the P1154 is the RAF MRI Strike platform of the future.

 

[SSgtC]

A decision for Crusader III would exert influence with the RN and a UK order is the likely outcome instead of the Phantom II.

Very possible. It would certainly be the more logical choice given the size constraints that the RN was working with. Though any Crusader purchase would probably just as much of a CF as the OTL Phantom purchase. Fitting it with the de Haviland Gyron could be a possibility, though it offers slightly less trust than the J75 (27,000 pounds verses 29,500). The holdup would be the RAF. For the RAF, the Phantom is far and away the better choice for their needs. And they would be operating many more aircraft than the FAA would, even if the RN kept a bigger carrier fleet. So it could be a case of the FAA being forced into accepting an aircraft that they don't really want.

Forced?
Hardly considering the period. This can meet their needs and quickly as the 'quick and easy' F4K and much more likely even with a UK engine to not spiral out of cost or time estimates.

As for engines.
Bristol.OL.21R or Ol.22R
Rolls-Royce Conway
Rolls-Royce Medway

DeHaviland Gyron, which certainly can be uprated.

Of these commonality with OR.339 TSR.2 is likely the answer.
Though by the early 60’s the Medway was being slated for the Viggen and likely RR had eyes on toppling Bristol's dominance.

Though Vought did produce a Crusader variant design for the RN at this time using a reheated RR Conway., with Thunderchief style inlets. With a ventral recess for a nuclear bomb....

No, I mean that the FAA may be forced into accepting the Phantom when they would prefer the Super Crusader for the simple fact that the UK can't afford to buy two different fighters.

?
There's no need for the F4 at that time.
Until 1965, the P1154 is the RAF MRI Strike platform of the future.

It really depends when the FAA starts looking for a new platform. The Sea Vixen was on the cusp of entering service at this time, so they won't be looking for a new fighter for awhile yet. Hell, they couldn't afford to buy another new fighter right now even if they wanted. Especially an American fighter given the Treasury's concern over balance of payments and the overall state of British finances.

 

[Archibald]

I remember reading the DH-110 decade-long (1949-1959) tortured path toward FAA in Tony Butler book. And shaking my head in disbelief.
They lost FIVE YEARS (DH-116 non-twin-boom-Venom WTF ?) and it could have entered service as early as 1954.
By 1959, it was subsonic and obsolete even as it entered service.

In fact there must be an alternate universe somewhere where the DH-110 become RN and RAF one and unique all weather interceptor as early as 1954 ! Screw the Javelin and its aerodynamics as refined as a brickyard...

The horrible Farnborough crash of the prototype, that killed so many people probably did not helped...

 

[zen]

So post 1957 and in complete refutation of the recent declaration by DAW that SAMs could not remove the need for fighters completely. The RN was working on successor systems to the Scimitar, Buccaneer and Sea Vixen.
They focused by necessity on a single multirole type OR.346 combining TSR.2 levels of performance with an additional CAP Fighter mission.
Because of the death of DLI and the F.177 interceptor, the requirements for CAP expanded from 2 hours plus combat and recovery, to 4 hours.
This was reasoned they could only afford one new design, so it had to do everything.
Rapidly this hit technological barriers, and an interim requirement AW.406 was issued for a fighter with limited strike attack capability.

Meanwhile NMBR.3 was running and the FAA was asked if P1154 would meet their needs. The answer was it would do for Atrack and light fighter missions. Government thinking they could pull a TFX ordered a merger of requirements between RAF and FAA.
This led to HSA tying themselves in knots trying to solve the conundrum.

 

[SSgtC]

I remember reading the DH-110 decade-long (1949-1959) tortured path toward FAA in Tony Butler book. And shaking my head in disbelief.
They lost FIVE YEARS (DH-116 non-twin-boom-Venom WTF ?) and it could have entered service as early as 1954.
By 1959, it was subsonic and obsolete even as it entered service.

Yeah, the Sea Vixen is the living breathing proof that the UK's aviation industry and purchasing methods were irreparably broken. They were introducing a subsonic naval fighter when the United States was introducing their THIRD supersonic fighter (F11F, F8U, F4H) and first supersonic bomber (A3J).

 

[SSgtC]

So post 1957 and in complete refutation of the recent declaration by DAW that SAMs could not remove the need for fighters completely. The RN was working on successor systems to the Scimitar, Buccaneer and Sea Vixen.
They focused by necessity on a single multirole type OR.346 combining TSR.2 levels of performance with an additional CAP Fighter mission.
Because of the death of DLI and the F.177 interceptor, the requirements for CAP expanded from 2 hours plus combat and recovery, to 4 hours.
This was reasoned they could only afford one new design, so it had to do everything.
Rapidly this hit technological barriers, and an interim requirement AW.406 was issued for a fighter with limited strike attack capability.

Meanwhile NMBR.3 was running and the FAA was asked if P1154 would meet their needs. The answer was it would do for Atrack and light fighter missions. Government thinking they could pull a TFX ordered a merger of requirements between RAF and FAA.
This led to HSA tying themselves in knots trying to solve the conundrum.

Yet more proof that British procurement was broken at the time. Sad thing is, they were looking in the right direction, trying to go multirole. The problem was the technology of the era just didn't allow a suitable multirole fighter without it being compromised in some way. The Phantom was really the first truly successful naval multirole jet fighter, and it was absolutely massive with a takeoff weight of 56,000 pounds when fully bombed up.

 

[zen]

So post 1957 and in complete refutation of the recent declaration by DAW that SAMs could not remove the need for fighters completely. The RN was working on successor systems to the Scimitar, Buccaneer and Sea Vixen.
They focused by necessity on a single multirole type OR.346 combining TSR.2 levels of performance with an additional CAP Fighter mission.
Because of the death of DLI and the F.177 interceptor, the requirements for CAP expanded from 2 hours plus combat and recovery, to 4 hours.
This was reasoned they could only afford one new design, so it had to do everything.
Rapidly this hit technological barriers, and an interim requirement AW.406 was issued for a fighter with limited strike attack capability.

Meanwhile NMBR.3 was running and the FAA was asked if P1154 would meet their needs. The answer was it would do for Atrack and light fighter missions. Government thinking they could pull a TFX ordered a merger of requirements between RAF and FAA.
This led to HSA tying themselves in knots trying to solve the conundrum.

Yet more proof that British procurement was broken at the time. Sad thing is, they were looking in the right direction, trying to go multirole. The problem was the technology of the era just didn't allow a suitable multirole fighter without it being compromised in some way. The Phantom was really the first truly successful naval multirole jet fighter, and it was absolutely massive with a takeoff weight of 56,000 pounds when fully bombed up.

They were betting on swappable systems, that could re-role an aircraft in hours.
This is part of why Tactical Air Unit numbers could be reduced, as aircraft would be re-roled depending on the state of progress in a war.

However the F8U-III would more than meet AW.406, much as the F4 did.
But crucially, we know Shorts did bid a Spey F8 Twosader to AW.406, so a Olympus or Medway F8U-III offering is quite with the realms of plausibility.

 

[SSgtC]

They were betting on swappable systems, that could re-role an aircraft in hours.
This is part of why Tactical Air Unit numbers could be reduced, as aircraft would be re-roled depending on the state of progress in a war.

However the F8U-III would more than meet AW.406, much as the F4 did.
But crucially, we know Shorts did bid a Spey F8 Twosader to AW.406, so a Olympus or Medway F8U-III offering is quite with the realms of plausibility.

And this version of the Crusader is far more capable than the one offered by Shorts. It already has an AN/APS-50 radar and Sparrow capability. Along with being significantly faster and longer ranged. I agree, it's perfect for the RN FAA. I just don't know if the Treasury would ok the purchase.

 

[zen]

Treasurey were told F4K was estimated 1.2 million per plane.
F8 was approximately 0.5 million, though Shorts offering was likely more.

P1154 was estimated at 1.5 million per plane.

F4K actually started delivery when it was supposed to finish and cost 3.55 million per plane.

So in terms of costs, F8U-III has to be under 1.2 million per plane and if it escalated to 1.5 million it would save money.

 

[isayyo2]

But would the RAF/FAA stuff a Medway into any F8U-3 purchase? For the jobs of course

 

[SSgtC]

But would the RAF/FAA stuff a Medway into any F8U-3 purchase? For the jobs of course

Well, it would fit. The Medway was an inch smaller in diameter (engine only, not including the afterburner). But it was also 20" longer without the burner than the J75 was. So I'm not sure if it would actually fit or not.

 

[zen]

But would the RAF/FAA stuff a Medway into any F8U-3 purchase? For the jobs of course

Yes and with RR pushing for something as until '65 it looked like Bristol was winning everything bar HS.681

Furthermore, RR was expecting to sell Medway to Sweden and still had hopes both for civil orders and to power HS.681 military transport.

 

[Archibald]

They were betting on swappable systems, that could re-role an aircraft in hours.
This is part of why Tactical Air Unit numbers could be reduced, as aircraft would be re-roled depending on the state of progress in a war.

However the F8U-III would more than meet AW.406, much as the F4 did.
But crucially, we know Shorts did bid a Spey F8 Twosader to AW.406, so a Olympus or Medway F8U-III offering is quite with the realms of plausibility.

And this version of the Crusader is far more capable than the one offered by Shorts. It already has an AN/APS-50 radar and Sparrow capability. Along with being significantly faster and longer ranged. I agree, it's perfect for the RN FAA. I just don't know if the Treasury would ok the purchase.

Because it was a TF-8 Crusader II, when this one is a Crusader III. Far more advanced indeed.

The Crusader I & II were closer from F-11F Tiger when the Crusader III rivaled the Phantom.

It's crazy to thing Crusader I had mostly guns, Crusader II had guns & Sidewinders, and Crusader III got Sparrows.
By this metric, Crusader IV should have had AIM-47 Falcons LMAO.

 

[GTX]

Also as a rather extreme suggestion of an aircraft to counter the Indonesians, what about the B58? Did it have a conventional bombing capability, could it have been upgraded with more powerful engines (Speys) and dispense with the Pod.

Check out the analysis I did back at reply #281

 

[SSgtC]

They were betting on swappable systems, that could re-role an aircraft in hours.
This is part of why Tactical Air Unit numbers could be reduced, as aircraft would be re-roled depending on the state of progress in a war.

However the F8U-III would more than meet AW.406, much as the F4 did.
But crucially, we know Shorts did bid a Spey F8 Twosader to AW.406, so a Olympus or Medway F8U-III offering is quite with the realms of plausibility.

And this version of the Crusader is far more capable than the one offered by Shorts. It already has an AN/APS-50 radar and Sparrow capability. Along with being significantly faster and longer ranged. I agree, it's perfect for the RN FAA. I just don't know if the Treasury would ok the purchase.

Because it was a TF-8 Crusader II, when this one is a Crusader III. Far more advanced indeed.

The Crusader I & II were closer from F-11F Tiger when the Crusader III rivaled the Phantom.

It's crazy to thing Crusader I had mostly guns, Crusader II had guns & Sidewinders, and Crusader III got Sparrows.
By this metric, Crusader IV should have had AIM-47 Falcons LMAO.

Lol. AIM-54 Phoenix

 

[zen]

A point ought to made here that range is not radius of action (RoA). The former is a single direction flight, while the latter is a flight out and back.
A basic rule of thumb is radius is less than half range, with range roughly twice radius.
Thus as an example a Bomber might have a still air range of 4,500nm. But a radius of just 2,000nm with a 5,000lb nuclear weapon.

 

[SSgtC]

A point ought to made here that range is not radius of action (RoA). The former is a single direction flight, while the latter is a flight out and back.
A basic rule of thumb is radius is less than half range, with range roughly twice radius.
Thus as an example a Bomber might have a still air range of 4,500nm. But a radius of just 2,000nm with a 5,000lb nuclear weapon.

All the ranges listed, for both Combat Radius and Combat Range are pulled directly from the the US Navy Standard Aircraft Characteristics sheets.

 

[zen]

Relevant F8U-III for RN offering circa 1957....

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/vought-xf8u-3-crusader-iii.1013/page-4#post-76517

 

[starviking]

A decision for Crusader III would exert influence with the RN and a UK order is the likely outcome instead of the Phantom II.

Or has Hawker pushing a P1121 development for the RAF and RN.

 

[zen]

Though the 1153 is closest to the timeline, aimed at OR.346 and ....has a VI wing....

Sadly it's festooned with lift jets and clang box diverter to vectoring nozzles

 

[Archibald]

It was a bloated monster, indeed. Like too many VSTOL projects in the 60's. Back then engineers seemed to believe lift jets like the XJ99 were some kind of magical anti-gravity devices you could pack in large numbers in any airframe and boom, voilà, "VSTOL Tornado" (AVS).

Hot gases re-ingestion ? Ground erosion ? insane fuel consumption ? what's that ? Oh, and let's add variable geometry, just because its trendy...

There was even a nuclear VSTOL Concorde early study by Sud Aviation, circa 1960-62...

There is also a british airliner (can't remember the name) with banks of lift-jets on the sides of the fuselage, to make it VSTOL.

Eureka ! no need for runways !

 

[Volkodav]

Also as a rather extreme suggestion of an aircraft to counter the Indonesians, what about the B58? Did it have a conventional bombing capability, could it have been upgraded with more powerful engines (Speys) and dispense with the Pod.

Check out the analysis I did back at reply #281

Always wondered if the B-58 would super cruise with Olympus, Conway etc. It was definitely better at low level then the B-52 and was probably more survivable than any other bomber through until the B-1B. As for operating cost etc. a lot of the figures used to justify its retirement were pretty dodgy, it was more a case of B-52 Wings had fewer aircraft but the same number of Colonels and Brigadiers as the B-58 Wing, hence killing the B-58 saved more SAC careers than retiring an equivalent number of older B-52s instead.

 

[Pirate Pete]

It was a bloated monster, indeed. Like too many VSTOL projects in the 60's. Back then engineers seemed to believe lift jets like the XJ99 were some kind of magical anti-gravity devices you could pack in large numbers in any airframe and boom, voilà, "VSTOL Tornado" (AVS).

Hot gases re-ingestion ? Ground erosion ? insane fuel consumption ? what's that ? Oh, and let's add variable geometry, just because its trendy...

There was even a nuclear VSTOL Concorde early study by Sud Aviation, circa 1960-62...

There is also a british airliner (can't remember the name) with banks of lift-jets on the sides of the fuselage, to make it VSTOL.

Eureka ! no need for runways !

The Hawker Siddeley HS141?

 

[Archibald]

It was a bloated monster, indeed. Like too many VSTOL projects in the 60's. Back then engineers seemed to believe lift jets like the XJ99 were some kind of magical anti-gravity devices you could pack in large numbers in any airframe and boom, voilà, "VSTOL Tornado" (AVS).

Hot gases re-ingestion ? Ground erosion ? insane fuel consumption ? what's that ? Oh, and let's add variable geometry, just because its trendy...

There was even a nuclear VSTOL Concorde early study by Sud Aviation, circa 1960-62...

There is also a british airliner (can't remember the name) with banks of lift-jets on the sides of the fuselage, to make it VSTOL.

Eureka ! no need for runways !

The Hawker Siddeley HS141?

Yeees - this very horror, exactly. My bad, those weren't lift jets but fans.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmPhaG1ud38

 

[starviking]

Though the 1153 is closest to the timeline, aimed at OR.346 and ....has a VI wing....

Sadly it's festooned with lift jets and clang box diverter to vectoring nozzles

Though we ave to remember this timeline has been diverging since April 1957, so resources may have been allocated differently from real life.

 

[SSgtC]

Though the 1153 is closest to the timeline, aimed at OR.346 and ....has a VI wing....

Sadly it's festooned with lift jets and clang box diverter to vectoring nozzles

Though we ave to remember this timeline has been diverging since April 1957, so resources may have been allocated differently from real life.

It has, but so far the butterflies have been fairly contained. There are noticeable difference, but nothing that will yet drastically alter the strategic world view. The UK is definitely paying attention to events in the Southwest Pacific and in the South Atlantic. Argentina buying a full up fleet carrier is ringing alarm bells in Parliament with regard to the Falklands. And they're also concerned that Indonesia may make an issue about British Borneo. But they also feel that they and the Australians can handle them fairly easily.

 

[starviking]

Though the 1153 is closest to the timeline, aimed at OR.346 and ....has a VI wing....

Sadly it's festooned with lift jets and clang box diverter to vectoring nozzles

Though we ave to remember this timeline has been diverging since April 1957, so resources may have been allocated differently from real life.

It has, but so far the butterflies have been fairly contained. There are noticeable difference, but nothing that will yet drastically alter the strategic world view. The UK is definitely paying attention to events in the Southwest Pacific and in the South Atlantic. Argentina buying a full up fleet carrier is ringing alarm bells in Parliament with regard to the Falklands. And they're also concerned that Indonesia may make an issue about British Borneo. But they also feel that they and the Australians can handle them fairly easily.

I probably should have not used the term resources, but Hawker will have probably tried a bit more of a push with the P1121, and the EE Lightning may get more updates sooner as it moves more rapidly from an 'interim' type to a frontline fighter (Tony Buttler mentions such upgrades coming in later in a paper on the Sandys review's victims).

There's also the maneuvering and machinations over the Sandys review's fallout. The RN comes out of it quite well in real life, managing to hold on to her carriers, and getting the commando carriers too. They could probably do as well, perhaps better, but the RAF could also do well in the Far East. The Argentinian carrier can only improve the RN situation more.

 

[SSgtC]

Though the 1153 is closest to the timeline, aimed at OR.346 and ....has a VI wing....

Sadly it's festooned with lift jets and clang box diverter to vectoring nozzles

Though we ave to remember this timeline has been diverging since April 1957, so resources may have been allocated differently from real life.

It has, but so far the butterflies have been fairly contained. There are noticeable difference, but nothing that will yet drastically alter the strategic world view. The UK is definitely paying attention to events in the Southwest Pacific and in the South Atlantic. Argentina buying a full up fleet carrier is ringing alarm bells in Parliament with regard to the Falklands. And they're also concerned that Indonesia may make an issue about British Borneo. But they also feel that they and the Australians can handle them fairly easily.

I probably should have not used the term resources, but Hawker will have probably tried a bit more of a push with the P1121, and the EE Lightning may get more updates sooner as it moves more rapidly from an 'interim' type to a frontline fighter (Tony Buttler mentions such upgrades coming in later in a paper on the Sandys review's victims).

There's also the maneuvering and machinations over the Sandys review's fallout. The RN comes out of it quite well in real life, managing to hold on to her carriers, and getting the commando carriers too. They could probably do as well, perhaps better, but the RAF could also do well in the Far East. The Argentinian carrier can only improve the RN situation more.

Hawker is actually really well positioned here. The fact that the RAAF and RAN FAA had serious interest in the P.1121 has spurred on a bit of development that was abandoned in OTL. They've also started seriously looking at how to make the design carrier capable. If Australia hadn't been so badly spooked by Indonesia, it would have been a finalist for service there. There are more events still to come that will really begin to change things though.

 

[starviking]

Though the 1153 is closest to the timeline, aimed at OR.346 and ....has a VI wing....

Sadly it's festooned with lift jets and clang box diverter to vectoring nozzles

Though we ave to remember this timeline has been diverging since April 1957, so resources may have been allocated differently from real life.

It has, but so far the butterflies have been fairly contained. There are noticeable difference, but nothing that will yet drastically alter the strategic world view. The UK is definitely paying attention to events in the Southwest Pacific and in the South Atlantic. Argentina buying a full up fleet carrier is ringing alarm bells in Parliament with regard to the Falklands. And they're also concerned that Indonesia may make an issue about British Borneo. But they also feel that they and the Australians can handle them fairly easily.

I probably should have not used the term resources, but Hawker will have probably tried a bit more of a push with the P1121, and the EE Lightning may get more updates sooner as it moves more rapidly from an 'interim' type to a frontline fighter (Tony Buttler mentions such upgrades coming in later in a paper on the Sandys review's victims).

There's also the maneuvering and machinations over the Sandys review's fallout. The RN comes out of it quite well in real life, managing to hold on to her carriers, and getting the commando carriers too. They could probably do as well, perhaps better, but the RAF could also do well in the Far East. The Argentinian carrier can only improve the RN situation more.

Hawker is actually really well positioned here. The fact that the RAAF and RAN FAA had serious interest in the P.1121 has spurred on a bit of development that was abandoned in OTL. They've also started seriously looking at how to make the design carrier capable. If Australia hadn't been so badly spooked by Indonesia, it would have been a finalist for service there. There are more events still to come that will really begin to change things though.

And the new carrier case could be sealed much quicker than in real life.

 

[SSgtC]

And the new carrier case could be sealed much quicker than in real life.

It's a possibility. The UK is looking around the world and not really liking what they're seeing

 

[Volkodav]

A plan I have had for a while is to build a RAAF EE Lightning, selected to serve with or instead of the Bristol Bloodhound Mk1 missile (service entry with 30 Sqn 1961). i.e. a high performance, point defence interceptor was determined to be a more critical acquisition than an early generation SAM with Indonesia's fielding of modern Soviet bombers. Initially Lightning F.1 or 2s would be acquired on loan while an improved version of the F.6 would follow, with possible local production. Silly I know but a six ADEN version of the F.6 with F-4 style twin Sidewinder pylons fitted under wing forward of the main gear well as opposed to Redtop.

 

[SSgtC]

A plan I have had for a while is to build a RAAF EE Lightning, selected to serve with or instead of the Bristol Bloodhound Mk1 missile (service entry with 30 Sqn 1961). i.e. a high performance, point defence interceptor was determined to be a more critical acquisition than an early generation SAM with Indonesia's fielding of modern Soviet bombers. Initially Lightning F.1 or 2s would be acquired on loan while an improved version of the F.6 would follow, with possible local production. Silly I know but a six ADEN version of the F.6 with F-4 style twin Sidewinder pylons fitted under wing forward of the main gear well as opposed to Redtop.

The problem with the Lightning in RAAF service is its absolutely shit range and the sheer amount of area the RAAF needs to defend.

 

[Volkodav]

A plan I have had for a while is to build a RAAF EE Lightning, selected to serve with or instead of the Bristol Bloodhound Mk1 missile (service entry with 30 Sqn 1961). i.e. a high performance, point defence interceptor was determined to be a more critical acquisition than an early generation SAM with Indonesia's fielding of modern Soviet bombers. Initially Lightning F.1 or 2s would be acquired on loan while an improved version of the F.6 would follow, with possible local production. Silly I know but a six ADEN version of the F.6 with F-4 style twin Sidewinder pylons fitted under wing forward of the main gear well as opposed to Redtop.

The problem with the Lightning in RAAF service is its absolutely shit range and the sheer amount of area the RAAF needs to defend.

Yes, that's why I specified its acquisition as a point defence interceptor as a supplement or alternative to the Bloodhound SAMs actually acquired.

Besides, it would look cool....

 

[SSgtC]

December 2, 1958
Newport News, VA

The future USS America is laid down at Newport News Shipbuilding alongside her sister, Enterprise. She will be the Navy's second nuclear powered carrier. Like her older sister, America is projected to cost roughly three hundred million dollars and is planned to join the fleet in just over three years. As previously planned, America's keel is laid in one of the massive drydocks at Newport News.

 

[SSgtC]

December 4, 1958
Port of Tanjung Perak, East Java, Indonesia

The Soviet freighter Admiral Ushakov returns to the Indonesian port to make yet another delivery. Deep in her holds are crates that are labeled as containing additional MiG-15UTI trainers for the Indonesian Air Force. Instead, the crates each hold two AS-1 Kennel Anti-Ship Missiles. A first generation ASM, they are roughly the same shape as the MiG-15 with about the same performance. They are however considerably smaller than the MiG-15, allowing two of them to be carried beneath the wings of Tu-16 bombers. Their biggest selling point though, is that they allow a true stand-off attack to be made from over eighty miles away. This is a vast improvement over trying to dive bomb with tactical aircraft.

The missiles are transported to a hanger at Iswahyudi Airbase at night and over the next few days, several previously delivered MiG-15s are rolled out of the hanger in new markings to further the deception that additional trainers were delivered as attrition replacements. Indonesia's new anti-ship capability was to remain a state secret. For now.

 

[SSgtC]

December 18, 1958
Edwards Air Force Base, California, USA

The thunder of the mighty Pratt & Whitney J75 rent the morning air. The Super Crusader prototype was taking to the air for yet another test flight. Behind the hulking fighter a bright cone of flame stretched out as the pilot went to full afterburner for his takeoff run. Leaving the ground behind, the Crusader and its pilot made their way to the Naval Ordnance Test Station China Lake. The Vought engineers had modified the intake ramp yet again in another attempt to eliminate the Crusader's troubling tendency to go into a compressor stall when coming out of burner in supersonic flight. They were trying something that was in all honesty stolen from McDonnell's F4H after one of the engineers had taken a look at it late one night. It was a variable ramp placed in the intake scoop that would disrupt the airflow just enough to regulate the speed at which air could enter the engine. By disrupting the airflow to reduce its speed to subsonic speeds before entering the engine, it was hoped that this would eliminate the vast majority of compressor stalls.

Upon arrival at the Test Station, the test pilot went to burner and quickly pushed the Crusader to Mach 2 before bracing himself for the expected compressor stall and pulling the throttle out of burner and back to military power. As the engine slowed, the expected stall never came. Falling back to a subsonic speed, the pilot pushed his throttle back to full afterburner to repeat the test. This time, he pushed the fighter to mach 2.25 before reducing the throttle to idle. If anything was going to induce a compressor stall, this was it. Instead, the engine continued to roar behind him. He had several more test to run to try and induce a compressor stall, but so far the new ramp seems to have solved the biggest issue facing the Super Crusader.

Two and a half hours later, the hulking brute of a fighter landed back at Edwards Air Force Base and the pilot climbed from the cockpit. He had done everything he could think of to stall the compressor and the redesigned had performed nearly flawlessly. Only once was he able to induce a compressor stall, and that was while doing something that would probably never be done in regular service. He had accelerated to mach 1.8, then cut the throttle to idle and pulled the plane into a high-G climbing turn. The airflow had been so badly disrupted that the both the wing and the compressor had stalled. Thank God he had plenty of altitude below him to recover because he had damn near gone into a flat spin doing that. He'd let the engineers know to make a note in the flight manual never to do that in an operational squadron.