Chinese VTOL aircraft

[Ainen]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1664653653947609090

View: https://twitter.com/louischeung_hk/status/1664653653947609090


Chinese 3d graphics is an old meme, but here it helps visualize the patent drawings.
Overall - interesting sorta "1.5"-engined concept, merging Harrier, F-35, and Yak-38 approaches. In both advantages and disadvantages.

Could you please post these images directly here since I’m blocked by that guy

done:

 

[GTX]

A patent does not make a prototype...a prototype does not make an operational platform...

Perhaps I need to amend this to say: A patent does not make a prototype...a prototype does not make an operational platform...and neither does CGI Art...

 

[Erdosain]

I found this on Twitter, I don't know the veracity of the project but personally it seems unlikely to me to put those big fans on a super sonic fighter.

Could it be some kind of April Fool's Day joke? Or just a theoretical study?

 

[moin1900]

J-6 VTOL
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/chinese-j-6-vtol-project.35235/
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/shenyang-j-8ii-1968-design.19709/post-191811
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/kumas-china-secret-project-artwork.40499/post-563340

 

[Nx4eu]

I'll just post these from SDF here.
These are procurement document for a V/STOL research project, and for a test model.

 

[Erdosain]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1887522739117871311

View: https://x.com/Defence_IDA/status/1887522739117871311?t=ycmOH-WlFMMQ7OWF-CvdAg&s=19

 

[FighterJock]

So here is a million dolllar question would the PLAN consider a variant of the J-35 as a possible contender for the new tender to save money? or would they have to design and build a brand new STOVL fighter from the ground up?

 

[Christmas Day dumplings]

So here is a million dolllar question would the PLAN consider a variant of the J-35 as a possible contender for the new tender to save money? or would they have to design and build a brand new STOVL fighter from the ground up?

The J-35 has clearly entered the phase of technological freeze, and even if STOVL capabilities were to be developed, it would constitute a separate project. "小步快跑"prioritizes schedule over budget.

 

[FighterJock]

So no STOVL J-35, a brand new fighter in the works. It will be interesting to see what it looks like when the PLAN reveal it.

 

[thanix01]

I am surprise how many fighter aircraft PLAN will potentially operate. J-35, this VTOL, and as theorized by some the upcoming Shenyang next gen Aircraft.

I wonder what are time frame these will operate. Or will they become operable and fielded in similiar time period?

 

[Jemiba]

Please back to the original topic ! Discussions about transparency in defence spendings of the Chinese armed forces may actually be appropriate in this forum, trans gender themes rather not, general communication problems should be dealt with, but perhaps there‘s no need to broaden the discussion, especially not, if the original problem is solved.

Thread cleaned up

 

[Tomboy]

Electrically actuated roll posts

Lift fan

Vectored nozzle

All these patents are from Shenyang AECC and seem to be a part of a VTOL system they are working on, as for the clutch for this system, another paper last year from Shenyang AECC indicated that the clutch has been tested with a "load" while hooked up to a modified twin spool turbofan. Other tender for a driveshaft, Y-shaped intake duct, testing/monitoring equipment for the clutch and ground support/test equipment for the lift fan were also found dated to last year which might be related to that paper. So from the looks of it right now it seems that they are at the prototype stage for the lift system as for information on the actual aircraft itself, what engine will this aircraft use or even which company is the manufacturer are not public information(Which is pretty understandable). But from the tenders and patents we can deduce that this aircraft will have a single engine, use a F-35B style lift system and likely use conventional side intakes but that's about it.

 

[Tomboy]

I think they've built a heavily modified WS-15 to power this prototype

 

[Sferrin]

But from the tenders and patents we can deduce that this aircraft will have a single engine, use a F-35B style lift system and likely use conventional side intakes but that's about it.

I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

 

[Tomboy]

I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

Lift fans are still the best, most efficient design. No point in reinventing the wheel

 

[SUPER=BUG]

A single engine is the best, a twin engine is a bit unrealistic. In fact, I am more curious about it, after all, China's next-generation aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships will have electromagnetic catapults, it necessary to make another manned STOVL fighter?I'm more inclined to this as a large drone.

 

[Sferrin]

Lift fans are still the best, most efficient design. No point in reinventing the wheel

They going to pay Lockheed royalties to use their patent?

 

[Tomboy]

They going to pay Lockheed royalties to use their patent?

So your saying just because RR built the first lift fan based system now no one is allowed to build another one? I hope you see how ridiculous that sounds.

 

[EmoBirb]

A single engine is the best, a twin engine is a bit unrealistic. In fact, I am more curious about it, after all, China's next-generation aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships will have electromagnetic catapults, it necessary to make another manned STOVL fighter?I'm more inclined to this as a large drone.

I'm also leaning more towards UCAV

 

[Sferrin]

So your saying just because RR built the first lift fan based system now no one is allowed to build another one? I hope you see how ridiculous that sounds.

No I'm saying since LM holds the patent on it, and RR is building it for them, that anybody who wants to copy the design needs to pay to do so. That's how patents work. Interesting that you appear to think the concept of patents as "ridiculous" but then that's China in a nutshell. (Of course they'll claim they didn't copy anything.)

 

[Nx4eu]

So your saying just because RR built the first lift fan based system now no one is allowed to build another one? I hope you see how ridiculous that sounds.

No but its disingenuous to say it's not copied off of lockheed's methodology. IIRC during the JSF bidding process many competitors like MDD, BAE, and Northrop had lift jets similar to the Yak-141, while the Boeing Bid, the X-32 used similar VTOL technologies to the harrier. It was lockheed at the time that went a completely different approach and invented the Shaft driven Lift fan. This was so innovative that it basically won out of the contract for Lockheed.

IF China's VTOL project really uses the exact same Shaft-driven lift fan with roll ducts, I see it hard to defend it not being a copy. And it doesn't have to be a direct copy, rehashing the core design elements of the Lockheed method, but adding some improvements to meet Chinese requirements is not a bad thing. That was how the X-32 VTOL system was made, inspired and used similar principles to the harrier, yet optimized for the JSF requirements. It would literally not offend Boeing engineers to say their VTOL system was a copy of the harriers, why would it offend Chinese engineers.

Can we not just say it how we see it?

Lockheed's shaft driven lift fan is an extremely innovative design and it would be a waste not to also develop something similar from the Chinese VTOL design perspective.

Obviously no one is preventing China from building a similar VTOL based platform using this *patented* VTOL method. But pretty much it's quite clear that if they did, they copied the core design technology of the Rolls-Royce LiftSystem.

 

[SUPER=BUG]

Ah, it's okay, in three years the plane may come out, and at the same time the problem of royalties may be solved (20 years)

 

[Geo]

Thank you for all that info, Tomboy.

It’s pretty hard to believe that such a complex system is being developed just to have its most valuable part—the human brain—cut out in the end.

We can all see how much focus China—aka the "Drone Empire"—is putting into manned aviation. Manned.

A jet-powered VTOL or STOVL aircraft is going to be absolutely critical for airborne assault ops, where you simply need a human on board because of the nature of the mission.

Sure, for some operations the aircraft might be optionally manned (just like most modern jets in the future), but there's no doubt it'll be designed with a human crew in mind from the start.

Same thing with China—despite all the hype around drones, they’re still developing plenty of manned aircraft, both fixed-wing and rotary-wing. Some people online say they could just replace stuff like the Z-10 with a swarm of drone bugs... but in reality, here we are in 2025, and they’re building something as “old school” as a two-seat attack chopper—the Z-21.

Honestly, developing a fully unmanned VTOL/STOVL jet doesn’t even make much sense right now, since EMALS-equipped LHDs like the Type 076 are clearly being set up to launch jet drones anyway.

 

[SUPER=BUG]

Does China need this type of fighter at the moment? It will not even necessarily be in service, only as a technical reserve. But from a purely technical point of view, it does have research value. In addition, as an aside, almost no one will know about the aircraft that China is generally going to enter service with until a prototype appears. For example, J36, J35, J20, J50, Z21·····

 

[Geo]

Here's an interesting side note to the discussion:
There's been a lot said about how complex it is to switch an aircraft from a single-engine to a twin-engine layout—or the other way around. Usually, that kind of change means you’re basically designing a whole new airframe.

But what’s worth pointing out is that within the Sukhoi's LUS/LTS program, there was a serious idea to build a family of variants with as much commonality as possible—including both a twin-engine "version" and a single engine VTOL/STOVL .

 

[Sferrin]

Ah, it's okay, in three years the plane may come out, and at the same time the problem of royalties may be solved (20 years)

Nah, China will just steal it and claim they didn't. And some will actually believe it.

 

[Tomboy]

Here's an interesting side note to the discussion:
There's been a lot said about how complex it is to switch an aircraft from a single-engine to a twin-engine layout—or the other way around. Usually, that kind of change means you’re basically designing a whole new airframe.

But what’s worth pointing out is that within the Sukhoi's LUS/LTS program, there was a serious idea to build a family of variants with as much commonality as possible—including both a twin-engine "version" and a single engine VTOL/STOVLView attachment 777889.

IMO the known spec of the engine(that is likely) used seems to me will require a unique airframe that can't be easily modded from ie a J-35(Of which the project predates these tenders/patents by years). It could be possible to be like the Sukhoi proposal where they share same control surfaces and wings but different fuselage but IMO if they indeed are making such an aircraft it'll likely be a brand new design.

 

[DWG]

IIRC during the JSF bidding process many competitors like MDD, BAE, and Northrop had lift jets similar to the Yak-141, while the Boeing Bid, the X-32 used similar VTOL technologies to the harrier. It was lockheed at the time that went a completely different approach and invented the Shaft driven Lift fan. This was so innovative that it basically won out of the contract for Lockheed.

MD/NG/BAE Systems were teamed (so only one concept, not many) and had a completely different and innovative approach, the gas-coupled lift-fan, and only switched to a lift jet very late in the day due to various issues that might have been worked around. It's discussed starting here.

 

[RavenOne]

reminds me again of


cheers

 

[martinbayer]

Wow, like, totally original.

Should be available on Alibaba by fall of next year.

 

[yasotay]

https://www.flightglobal.com/chinas-avic-testing-new-tiltrotor-aircraft/164195.article

 

[Tomboy]

Also, what??

I think Changhe's rigid rotor compound helicopter demonstrator flew, unclear when. According to rumor apparently it was earlier this year in April?
How much bloody things are they hiding at this point

 

[totoro]

Two more pics

 

[Tomboy]

It seems like unlike the tiltrotor demonstrator, this one actually features a fully new airframe. While the tiltrotor one seems to be an amalgamation of Y-12 and Z-15 with a brand new tail and wing.

 

[GtwingsSupport]

Is anyone aware of any projects by China to create a VTOL aircraft to operate off of their helicopter carriers?

Yes, China is reportedly working on a navalized stealth VTOL/STOVL aircraft project, but details are limited. Most sources suggest it’s still in the research or early development phase.

 

[SUPER=BUG]

It seems that the PLA is indeed pursuing high-speed helicopters.

 

[FighterJock]

Could we see the PLA develop a high speed variant of the Z-20? I suppose only time will tell.

 

[RavenOne]

View attachment 782225

View attachment 782226

Two more pics

According to Chinese military aviation blogspot Changhe 602(?)

When I was at Dubai air show 2023 I came across at the Chinese aviation pavilion for a tier 1/2 component maintenance company and on their booth was this so here’s my photo.





The catlogue had the same as well.




Cheers

 

[lancer21]

So the chinese were telling everyone what they were doing, but no one paid attention. Any illustration as to what the final military tilt rotor product is supposed to look like? The hints i've read is after the flights of these demonstrators which probably happened as early as last year, operational models should follow "soon".

PS: Huitong says the HSH flew as early as 12/23. And found this image of what the operational products are expected to look like.

 

[yasotay]

While I joked in the other thread on this topic, it is very clear that China has embarked on a very aggressive aerospace endeavor across every aspect found therein. It is not surprising to me that they are exploring both coaxial compound and tilt rotor. Who knows, next week we may see a RACER'esque rotorcraft.