Chinese Submarine News

totoro said:
The article mentions satellite imagery but provides none. Didn't know that Naval News website was in the "trust me, bro" business.

As for the sailess thing - I am sure there is a reason for it. China made enough subs with sails to know why this particular one might be better off without. Off the top of my head, it might imply that the new sub has good enough yaw stability, that it has low-on-the-hull mounted forward diving planes, that it doesn't use various sensor masts (unlikely) or that they are somehow retracting into the hull itself. (still a bit unlikely but certainly plausible if a special well for the masts has been cut into the pressure hull). There's also always the possibility that the whole sub simply isn't meant to dive very deep. Which then might pose further questions, if true: is it a special mission ship? An arsenal ship maybe? Is it unmanned? Etc.
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Naval News and other sites have had access to higher quality imagery that they have access to but don't necessarily have the rights to publish.
That's been known for a while now, and I don't think that puts them in the "trust me, bro" business, but is just a reflection of the reality of imagery access/rights these days. Until there is a time when there's a reason to doubt the access to said images, I think the interpretations can be taken at face value albeit with some critical thinking by the readers.


There are a variety of reasons why it might omit a sail/have a very small sail, including benefits. Whatever it is, having such a low profile sail on a comparatively large submarine like this would be a world first afaik
 
Potentially bigger news than the sub itself is if this vessel is nuclear powered. (judging by its size - it very well might be). If so, then it might indicate China got yet another submarine shipyard that's in the business of making nuclear powered subs. Remains to be seen whether this new sub is a low speed, low power reactor sort of a deal, like the Type 041 - or is it a proper high speed sub like the 093/095. China already has Wuhan shipyard making the low power reactor subs, so Shanghai would make it the 3rd shipyard capable of doing that. Or if this is a high power reactor sub - the second one, after the Huludao one.
 
Sferrin said:
Why is leaving the sail off, "astonishing"? Seems more like a shortcoming. Now if it's a UUV that would be something to talk about.
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I would think two completely unexpected (at least in OSINT circles), likely nuclear subs dropping out of the blue, with this kind of size and this kind of design is pretty astonishing.
 
Can someone else also do a measurement? Because I am getting some quite peculiar figures. The length is hard to estimate as the gantry is covering sub's rear. But given how wide it is still at the leftmost side of the gantry - I am assuming length goes more or less all the way to the rightmost side of the gantry line.

But even with said length - which is substantial at 120-125 m - i am getting some very big figures for the width. Between 17 and 19 meters. Image is quite blurry so I am not sure where to measure the sub from, width wise - but even 17 meters would make it extremely wide.
 
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totoro said:
Potentially bigger news than the sub itself is if this vessel is nuclear powered. (judging by its size - it very well might be). If so, then it might indicate China got yet another submarine shipyard that's in the business of making nuclear powered subs. Remains to be seen whether this new sub is a low speed, low power reactor sort of a deal, like the Type 041 - or is it a proper high speed sub like the 093/095. China already has Wuhan shipyard making the low power reactor subs, so Shanghai would make it the 3rd shipyard capable of doing that. Or if this is a high power reactor sub - the second one, after the Huludao one.
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Does this also mean that JiangNan can build nuclear-powered warships? (e.g., CVN)
 
It could also possibly be a specialised SSGN, it now also appears the JN hull and Bohai one is different. The Bohai hull is of similar length if not slightly longer but has a ridiculously wide beam of up to 16m compared to Naval New's measurement of 10m for the JN sub. Both appears to be sailless though.
 
A nuclear powered, submersible, arsenal ship UUV would be a nice to have. Maybe it sticks a sensor above water every so often to get instructions. Until then it just patrols an area.
 
TwoTribes said:
Does this also mean that JiangNan can build nuclear-powered warships? (e.g., CVN)
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Who knows, but it's certainly a step in that direction. Not improbable that within a few years time we will see a CVN there as well.
 
Is there any reason to assume these are nuclear other then the truncated sail?
 
Josh_TN said:
Is there any reason to assume these are nuclear other then the truncated sail?
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Quite a bit of tenders pointed to JN building a nuclear submarine, before today most analyst thought it was the Type 041 but apparently, it's this. As for the Bohai one, no one really knows for sure as we have no high res photos but from what can tell right now it's a different design, anyhow Bohai has to date only built nuclear subs and given the ridiculous beam of that submarine and overall size it's probably safe to assume thats nuclear as well.
 
totoro said:
Can someone else also do a measurement? Because I am getting some quite peculiar figures. The length is hard to estimate as the gantry is covering sub's rear. But given how wide it is still at the leftmost side of the gantry - I am assuming length goes more or less all the way to the rightmost side of the gantry line.

But even with said length - which is substantial at 120-125 m - i am getting some very big figures for the width. Between 17 and 19 meters. Image is quite blurry so I am not sure where to measure the sub from, width wise - but even 17 meters would make it extremely wide.
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Oscar-class are 18.2m wide.

So my assumption would be something like an Oscar, a double-hulled SSGN with missile tubes outside the pressure hull.



TwoTribes said:
Does this also mean that JiangNan can build nuclear-powered warships? (e.g., CVN)
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Depends on the size of the building docks and depth of water outside, though subs tend to draw as much or more water than carriers.



Josh_TN said:
Is there any reason to assume these are nuclear other then the truncated sail?
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Sheer size. 130m long by 12m diameter is 10,000tons or so, Seawolf size. 120m long by 18m is more like 15,000tons, bordering on Oscar size.
 
IMO, something equally important as this new class of SSN is that JN is now proved to be able to build SSNs. Credits to @Maikaru on SDF, they measured the new assembly hall at 325m x 55m with two rails sets for moving assembled submarines. This could allow up to 4 submarines to be worked on simultaneously and possibly allow up to 2 boats to be launched per year, though it seems that they are also expanding JN's submarine capacity in recent years.

This added to Bohai's ~6 boats per year estimate at max capacity would allow PLAN to launch atleast ~8 SSNs per year if both shipyards worked at max capacity. Possibly more in the future once expansion at JN finishes. Wuhan on the other hand does AFAIK have nuclear certification but is unknown whether they will be building SSNs, the only vaguely nuclear thing they've built to date is the Type 041 and that's not even confirmed to be nuclear.
 
Latest on the new submarines from SDF:

- It is much wider than what HI Sutton initially reported, a more realistic measurement would be 12.5m in beam and ~120m long.

- Likely hybrid hulled, interestingly instead of having a central portion of the pressure hull that is single hulled and tapered endings which is what'd you expect normally, it instead has one side ending in the full diameter (12.5m) of the hull and one side at a slightly smaller 10.5-11m diameter. We have direct evidence of this from the two pressure hull caps spotted in imagery from May 2025, one of a larger size at 12.5m diameter and one smaller at 10.5-11m.

- It has alteast 4 large multipack VLS tubes right behind the "sail" structure with a possible fifth, if these are the same ones on the 09V, then this submarine can carry up 12-15 UVLS cells.

- Very large X rudders, likely a bit lower in profile but wider than the ones on 09V which are already pretty large.

- Contrary to what HI Sutton and TWZ claims, the submarine launched in Bohai is likely to be of a different type but without proper imagery to confirm, it is difficult to confirm.

Based on those updates, we can probably confidently rule out the SSGN theory as it likely has less VLS cells than what the 09IIIB and 09V has. It's large size and hybrid hull construction also probably rules out the cheaper SSN to complement the 09V guess. The remaining guess we have are:

- Experimental next generation SSN
- Special mission submarine

The Chinese side has been quite fractured as well, it some people seems to believe it is a special mission submarine, and some believes it is a next generation SSN demonstrator with no clear consensus between the typically credible posters.
 
Tomboy said:
The Chinese side has been quite fractured as well, it some people seems to believe it is a special mission submarine, and some believes it is a next generation SSN demonstrator with no clear consensus between the typically credible posters.
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Would there even be a need to construct a tech demo of such scale? After all submarines are not aircraft and tech demos of such scale require far more funding, time, resources and personelle. There's after all a reason why large scale technology demonstrators are not usually the norm with submarines. Not to mention that Type 095 is just about now entering service, while work on a successor has probably already started it's highly doubtful to be along so far, as operational duty of the newest Chinese SSN (Type 095) should provide some useful data to work with and improve upon. So while I wouldn't expect as big of a gap between the Type 095 and it's succesor as between Virginia and SSN(X) for example, I would be shocked if that was already part of a successor program.
 
EmoBirb said:
Would there even be a need to construct a tech demo of such scale? After all submarines are not aircraft and tech demos of such scale require far more funding, time, resources and personelle. There's after all a reason why large scale technology demonstrators are not usually the norm with submarines.
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The US built a whole set of tech demonstrator submarines. Tullibee, Mendel Rivers, Jack, and Narwhal off the top of my head. Something like the last 6-8 of the 688s were all launched with some part of either Seawolf or Virginia tech installed, like propulsors or periscopes or sonar(s).
 
After not seeing them for a while, these submarines seemed to suddenly emerge from the ground. But I remember that in 2019, China already had an experimental submarine that was very similar to this submarine in some aspects.
 

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EmoBirb said:
Would there even be a need to construct a tech demo of such scale? After all submarines are not aircraft and tech demos of such scale require far more funding, time, resources and personelle. There's after all a reason why large scale technology demonstrators are not usually the norm with submarines. Not to mention that Type 095 is just about now entering service, while work on a successor has probably already started it's highly doubtful to be along so far, as operational duty of the newest Chinese SSN (Type 095) should provide some useful data to work with and improve upon. So while I wouldn't expect as big of a gap between the Type 095 and it's succesor as between Virginia and SSN(X) for example, I would be shocked if that was already part of a successor program.
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The 09V project was apparently delayed and eventually heavily redesigned like many other Chinese projects in the 2010s to become what we saw this year, this is also why 09IIIB was mass produced as a stopgap. The current rumor from the Chinese side is that the 09V was delayed so much that it became almost like a parallel project in timeline to the new SSN, it is now possible that 09V may not be mass produced and they'd directly jump on to the next generation design (09VII?)
 
Tomboy said:
The 09V project was apparently delayed and eventually heavily redesigned like many other Chinese projects in the 2010s to become what we saw this year, this is also why 09IIIB was mass produced as a stopgap. The current rumor from the Chinese side is that the 09V was delayed so much that it became almost like a parallel project in timeline to the new SSN, it is now possible that 09V may not be mass produced and they'd directly jump on to the next generation design (09VII?)
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Could be. There's certainly two very differently sized boats in the satellite photos right now.

The 09VII (man I hate that mix of Arabic and Roman numerals!) may be that fat SSN in the photos. Not that a 12m wide sub isn't "fat", that's Seawolf size. But there's Seawolf size and then there's Oscar size, and the fat SSN is Oscar size.

I suspect that it will depend on just what the setup is of the two classes. The 09IIIBs apparently have 24x VLS tubes amidships and I expect about the same from the 09V, while an Oscar could pack as many as 72x 53-60cm weapons in an 18m beam. If the 09VII is an SSGN in mission, loaded specifically to go throw cruise missiles at something while the 09V is an attack sub with some extra tubes, we could see concurrent production.
 
TwoTribes said:
Small sail.
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Not small, just normal sized... I'm not really sure what's the obsession with trying to call it small sailed or sail-less at this point. I assume it's people trying to desperately linger on to the previous theory that this was a next generation prototype but at this point with new info this is the least likely theory.
 
Tomboy said:
Not small, just normal sized... I'm not really sure what's the obsession with trying to call it small sailed or sail-less at this point. I assume it's people trying to desperately linger on to the previous theory that this was a next generation prototype but at this point with new info this is the least likely theory.
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Western sized sail.

Russian designs have significantly larger sails in both width and length.
 
NMaude said:
Isn't that in part due to Soviet/Russian designs incorporating an escape-pod in the sail?
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Yes, though I'm not sure why previous Chinese designs also have huge sails as none of them have a escape pod. This new submarine and 09V all have the thin western style sail designs.
 
pagliacci said:
What a massive stern rudder!
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I'm pretty sure that we're seeing an X-stern at angles, and the X shape allows for a 1.4x longer rudder while still keeping the same depth.

The bigger rudder/stern planes mean that you need less motion to impart the same force to the ship to move it. Smaller motions are quieter.



NMaude said:
Isn't that in part due to Soviet/Russian designs incorporating an escape-pod in the sail?
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Some did, yes.


Tomboy said:
Yes, though I'm not sure why previous Chinese designs also have huge sails as none of them have a escape pod. This new submarine and 09V all have the thin western style sail designs.
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Not all Soviet designs had an escape pod.

I suspect that the Chinese didn't bother with escape pods because they've been shown to be ineffective. So now they can use the much smaller western-style sails that basically only have enough length for all the masts and antennas plus a small-diameter bridge access trunk.
 

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