People need to stop wildly speculating in this thread based on the near-zero knowledge we have on Chinese nuclear submarines in the public sphere. Any suggestions that they are better or worse than X western design are not grounded in any actual information.

Factually 100% correct. But these types of speculation and discussion arise automatically from a point of curiousity and enthusiasm. Surely submarines, especially Chinese and Russian ones are information black holes, but generally speaking a lot of current systems globally are kept under tight wraps to varying degrees. But to seperate member discussion from facts and pure information there are dedicated 'news only' threads. I think there is already a thread for wider submarine warfare in the indo-pacific. So maybe some posts could be moved there. But generally speaking I get where a lot of speculation comes from and why people are so interested and eager to compare.
 
A Navy and the Chinese Navy in particular is nowadays mostly meant to protect the globe spanning economic interests of a country.

Exactly the point.

China is the world's largest manufacturer and undisputed industrial superpower, accounting for nearly 30% of global manufacturing output as of 2024-2025. With over $4.66 trillion in manufacturing value-added, China produces more than the next three nations (US, Japan, Germany) combined.

So, with you point above point then they should have vessels globally, not just the West Coast of the US.

Russia is very quickly moving down the list in terms of global capability.

Regards,
 
I think it is impossible to say with any certainty where relative silencing and detection capabilities are (and note that those two go hand in hand to determine who has an advantage), unless you are violating US federal law or something equivalent in China.

That said, the US has always enjoyed a lot of institutional advantages in this field. China also suffers from the known disadvantage of not having a safe, unobserved instrumented range to calibrate its subs or any exercise areas that might not potentially be observed by opponent sensors with the exception of the very shallow and very loud sea of borai. The USN can confidently train almost anywhere and has a number of off shore ranges for sound analysis, most notably the facility off the Bahamas that utilizes “The Tongue of the Sea”. The only deep water area inside the first island chain is the South China Sea, which I think is fair to rate as contested in the underwater regime.

This does not preclude China from developing subs and training crews, but it is a notable limitation that is pretty undeniable, where as all other discussions about crew and boat capabilities are very theoretical.
 
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@EmoBirb I understand the desire, but I think that submarines in general are something that is difficult to discuss meaningfully. I think there are two main reasons: (1) the degree of classification and culture of secrecy surrounding submarines, which is probably among the strictest of all military craft; (2) the literal lack of transparency of the submarine hull, which makes estimating characteristic such as radiated noise impossible from external inspection.

The latter is quite unlike, say, aircraft or land vehicles where differing external appearance can imply something meaningful about its capability. For a submarine, you could replace all the resilient mounts supporting the machinery sub-bases with solid ones and turn a quiet submarine into a loud one without any change in external appearance. Even the CIA made huge errors estimating the capability of Soviet submarines (e.g., the underestimate of the speed of the Novembers, the gross overestimate of the Alfa's test depth). That is to say, experts on submarine design with access to classified intelligence still make substantial errors, so what hope do we have in the unclassified sphere?
 
That's literally the job of 093Bs, it's not simply just a stopgap but also service as testbed for 09V technology.
Correct. But the US has iterated 18 different reactor designs for subs alone.



With all due respect, you're spouting a bit of bad gouge here.

And let's be real, you were a YN on a Trident, dude.
And what do YNs do when they get tired of sitting sticks? Wander into sonar.
 
Are you guys for real, what the hell does demographics and birthrates have to do with the explicit subject of 095 SSN and other PLAN nuclear subs? Here we have what is the equivalent of 6th generation fighter unveiling as far as PLAN's nuclear sub force is concerned, don't you think we ought to be talking rather more about this monumental milestone?
 
I understand your point, but you're also suggesting that the Virginia didn't evolve during it's lifetime, when one should assume that each individual Block improved the design in key aspects. One doesn't have to claim the Chinese submarine force to be impotent to consider that the US may still have some major advantages. Especially when it comes to soft factors, like experience in operation, maintenance and the likes.
OK but are you seriously suggesting PLAN can only match 90s USN level of technology in quieting with a completely new design in the 2020s? Again, only commenting on the ship itself not the crew. We already know 09V eliminated a major source of noise by going with an electric drive, all else equal 09V is going to be a quieter ship (and the fact that 09V has a much larger pressure hull than Virginia for more rafting).
 
OK but are you seriously suggesting PLAN can only match 90s USN level of technology in quieting with a completely new design in the 2020s? Again, only commenting on the ship itself not the crew. We already know 09V eliminated a major source of noise by going with an electric drive, all else equal 09V is going to be a quieter ship (and the fact that 09V has a much larger pressure hull than Virginia for more rafting).
It is entirely acceptable for submarines to have only 90% or even 80% of the performance of U.S. SSBNs, and then quickly build 20 of them to compensate for the numerical gap between the two sides' SSBN fleets.
It's similar to how the PLA Air Force received 400 to 500 J-20s equipped with AL-31 engines, which may not have fully perfected performance.

ps: I made a mistake: the 09V is not an SSBN, but that does not undermine the basic logic that the PLA's equipment does not need to be fully equivalent in performance to its U.S. counterpart.
PV6CM2PMIHY[77J2}@9QTNL.png
 
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It is entirely acceptable for submarines to have only 90% or even 80% of the performance of U.S. SSBNs, and then quickly build 20 of them to compensate for the numerical gap between the two sides' SSBN fleets.
It's similar to how the PLA Air Force received 400 to 500 J-20s equipped with AL-31 engines, which may not have fully perfected performance.

ps: I made a mistake: the 09V is not an SSBN, but that does not undermine the basic logic that the PLA's equipment does not need to be fully equivalent in performance to its U.S. counterpart.
View attachment 801882
That's again the point of 09IIIBs if you have been following any PLAN subsurface fleet developments. Its sole point is to buy time and test technology for 09Vs and to keep a minimum deterrence. 09V's point is literally a true next generation SSN built for future combat not a stopgap to rush into service.

Also, there is only a dozen or two J-20s for CFTE and operational testing built with AL-31Fs and all subsequent J-20s are all built with WS-10Cs. So that analogy is just completely wrong.
 
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Further info is that 09V not only uses an integrated electric propulsion but also a have electromagnetic torpedo launch tube and VLS cells.
 
OK but are you seriously suggesting PLAN can only match 90s USN level of technology in quieting with a completely new design in the 2020s? Again, only commenting on the ship itself not the crew. We already know 09V eliminated a major source of noise by going with an electric drive, all else equal 09V is going to be a quieter ship (and the fact that 09V has a much larger pressure hull than Virginia for more rafting).
It took the Soviets quite a while to catch up on quieting. It is an extremely difficult engineering problem that required billions in investment and several decades to perfect. The Chinese Navy has been far, far slower than the Soviet Navy in designing and building submarines.

I would not assume that just because a submarine has turboelectric drive or a larger pressure hull, it will be quieter. Propulsion machinery is not even necessarily the primary acoustic vulnerability of nuclear submarine; often auxiliaries are. Also, contrary to popular belief, electric motors and generators are very much not inherently silent and need to be specially designed to be low-noise. Sound-isolation is so much more than just having more space to do it. The Virginia was able to match the quieting of the Seawolf with a beam six feet narrower.
 
It is entirely acceptable for submarines to have only 90% or even 80% of the performance of U.S. SSBNs, and then quickly build 20 of them to compensate for the numerical gap between the two sides' SSBN fleets.
It's similar to how the PLA Air Force received 400 to 500 J-20s equipped with AL-31 engines, which may not have fully perfected performance.

ps: I made a mistake: the 09V is not an SSBN, but that does not undermine the basic logic that the PLA's equipment does not need to be fully equivalent in performance to its U.S. counterpart.
View attachment 801882

Btw that infographic is incorrect. In terms of active nuclear submarines, the PLAN has like 14+

that infographic was probably made by someone who thought that "defense blog" article from a few weeks ago was credible.
 
Just as a reminder, this thread is about Chinese submarines, NOT about their aircraft, or even the demographical development of the Chinese society ….
 
It took the Soviets quite a while to catch up on quieting. It is an extremely difficult engineering problem that required billions in investment and several decades to perfect. The Chinese Navy has been far, far slower than the Soviet Navy in designing and building submarines.

I treat this topic with a bit of caution and reservation in general, but one could also argue that it has actually been over a couple decades since the original pair of 09IIIs were built in the late 90s, the arguably the PRC has seen a much greater rate of advancement of industry, technology (not to mention finances) than what the Soviets had done in the middle to late Cold War, relative to its leading competitors --- and they had also produced small batch runs (2-3) of 09IIIA iterations in the 2010s (as well as their 09IV SSBNs), which would fit the pattern of iterative improvement and small batch production of classes/hulls which they know are needed to verify new technologies or subsystems but which they know within an individual boat itself is not yet competitive (thus not worth mass producing).

We saw that with their destroyer production/development between 051B/052, 052B, 052C, 051C, to an extent, before they were comfortable with 052D doing serial production fairly off the bat.

Of course, the very opaque nature of submarines and PLAN nuclear submarines in particular mean we don't really know what the actual rate of R&D and applied development/systems development has been, and we also don't know the extent of modifications and improvements that 09IIIA subvariants had based on a handful of external images.


However I do think just as the most technically correct answer is "we don't know" if we talk about the actual capabilities inside a 09V or 09IIIB are, we should also be saying "we don't know" in terms of what the rate of advancement of requisite technologies, subsystems, and upstream relevant industries are (as well as what the nature of 09IIIA subvariant improvements have been).


I would not assume that just because a submarine has turboelectric drive or a larger pressure hull, it will be quieter. Propulsion machinery is not even necessarily the primary acoustic vulnerability of nuclear submarine; often auxiliaries are. Also, contrary to popular belief, electric motors and generators are very much not inherently silent and need to be specially designed to be low-noise. Sound-isolation is so much more than just having more space to do it. The Virginia was able to match the quieting of the Seawolf with a beam six feet narrower.

I agree with this -- imo (and I direct this to @Tomboy), the biggest way of thinking about how much much "potential" improvement in acoustic silencing 09V (and 09IIIB) may have, is not due to some single system or characteristic, but the totality of the industry and technology providing all of the subsystems to the boat and the wisdom of the sound isolating design (and sophistication of those sound mitigating features).
Something like pressure hull size is important, but it's what you do inside to use that potential which matters.
 
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I agree with this -- imo (and I direct this to @Tomboy), the biggest way of thinking about how much much "potential" improvement in acoustic silencing 09V (and 09IIIB) may have, is not due to some single system or characteristic, but the totality of the industry and technology providing all of the subsystems to the boat and the wisdom of the sound isolating design (and sophistication of those sound mitigating features).
Something like pressure hull size is important, but it's what you do inside to use that potential which matters.
I'm I wrong in saying Chinese CNC machines are already competitive with the best Japanese and German machines and taking quite a bit of export market and China having the largest nuclear market in the world with many leading designs in construction or operation? Given how advanced Chinese manufacturing and nuclear technology is as of right now, are we still going to entertain the ridiculous idea that the best case scenario is that it's barely up to mark compared to a 30 year old US design?

For sound proofing equipment, most people forget that the Chinese nuclear submarine force has been for a very long time more of a research unit than an actual combat fleet, the fact that there are also numerous prototype and testbed submarines built over the years to facilitate development and that there are many conventional submarines launched as well. As far as rumors go, each of the 09IIIA boats are possibly different and serves as testbeds for different technology. Same thing is possible and likely for the newer 09IIIB boats.
Also, just as a point of fact, at this point we don't know the diameter of the pressure hull as we do not know if the submarine is double-hulled or single-hulled.
We do, 12.5m pressure hull segments are spotted before and the actual submarine is also 12.5m in diameter making it very likely to be single hulled or at the very worst hybrid hulled.
 
We do, 12.5m pressure hull segments are spotted before and the actual submarine is also 12.5m in diameter making it very likely to be single hulled or at the very worst hybrid hulled.
Can you please share evidence of this claim?
 
I'm I wrong in saying Chinese CNC machines are already competitive with the best Japanese and German machines and taking quite a bit of export market and China having the largest nuclear market in the world with many leading designs in construction or operation? Given how advanced Chinese manufacturing and nuclear technology is as of right now, are we still going to entertain the ridiculous idea that the best case scenario is that it's barely up to mark compared to a 30 year old US design?

For sound proofing equipment, most people forget that the Chinese nuclear submarine force has been for a very long time more of a research unit than an actual combat fleet, the fact that there are also numerous prototype and testbed submarines built over the years to facilitate development and that there are many conventional submarines launched as well. As far as rumors go, each of the 09IIIA boats are possibly different and serves as testbeds for different technology. Same thing is possible and likely for the newer 09IIIB boats.

I'm not sure why you are posting this in reply to me.

The reason I tagged you was to emphasize that we should not be thinking about PLAN SSN acoustic silencing progress in terms of lone technology types or lone characteristics (which your previous posts gave the impression of), but instead view the totality of where their industry may be.

As far as your estimate of PRC industry goes, well you don't need to make the argument to convince me, but at the same time the overall industry and extent of explicit PLAN advances/efforts is so opaque that is also impossible to convince people who are used to more "reliable" or "direct" sources.
 
Propulsion machinery is not even necessarily the primary acoustic vulnerability of nuclear submarine; often auxiliaries are.
There's also a lot you don't know until a hull is built and waterborne. Vulnerabilities vary with aspect, with speed, with depth, with lineup etc etc. There may be unexpected interactions between systems that won't become evident until the boat is operational.

It's far more complicated than most people understand.

Does it have fewer vulnerabilities than previous Chinese classes? Almost certainly--no sensible navy is going to go backward. This doesn't mean you can go comparing it to xxx or yyy class of American submarines, it just doesn't work that way.
 
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According to an unofficial official announcement, the Type 039B conventional submarine can use the YJ19 that appeared in this year's military parade.
Original text: On September 3, 2025, I watched the grand military parade with my colleagues at the unit. When we saw the missile that I participated in testing go past Tiananmen, many of my comrades pointed at the screen and said, 'Hey, that's the missile we launched.' We felt incredibly proud.
【鹰击19新型潜射导弹试验定型过程最新官宣披露!北海039B参与试射 还有上浮示威环节 大洋深处的对抗很激烈 致敬潜艇兵!】 https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1V...eb&vd_source=2425f76ab11741b8a952b432ea15d3ce
 
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Exactly the point.

China is the world's largest manufacturer and undisputed industrial superpower, accounting for nearly 30% of global manufacturing output as of 2024-2025. With over $4.66 trillion in manufacturing value-added, China produces more than the next three nations (US, Japan, Germany) combined.

So, with you point above point then they should have vessels globally, not just the West Coast of the US.

Russia is very quickly moving down the list in terms of global capability.

Regards,
It seems that every coastal country doing trade with China should have its newspapers fabricate a scare story just like the Daily Mail
 
It seems that every coastal country doing trade with China should have its newspapers fabricate a scare story just like the Daily Mail

That statement was a fact and not from any publication.

Maybe you should check what I have written?

Then reply.

Regards,
 
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There's also a lot you don't know until a hull is built and waterborne. Vulnerabilities vary with aspect, with speed, with depth, with lineup etc etc. There may be unexpected interactions between systems that won't become evident until the boat is operational.

It's far more complicated than most people understand.

Does it have fewer vulnerabilities than previous Chinese classes? Almost certainly--no sensible navy is going to go backward. This doesn't mean you can go comparing it to xxx or yyy class of American submarines, it just doesn't work that way.

Thoroughly analyzing self generated noise is also something the PLAN probably has issues with. There is no deep water area they can instrument with any privacy.
 

Major Upgrade Sees Hypersonic Ship-Killer Missiles Aboard China’s AIP Submarines​

Equipping conventional submarines with weapons currently beyond defense capabilities would not only significantly impede combat operations by the U.S. mobile fleet in the East Asian Seas but also force it further back (to more distant waters).
Furthermore, it would render local territorial conflicts between the Japanese Self-Defense Forces and the Chinese People's Liberation Army unfeasible, compelling the Japanese government to alter its political stance toward China.
 
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Equipping conventional submarines with weapons currently beyond defense capabilities would not only significantly impede combat operations by the U.S. mobile fleet in the East Asian Seas but also force it further back (to more distant waters).
Furthermore, it would render local territorial conflicts between the Japanese Self-Defense Forces and the Chinese People's Liberation Army unfeasible, compelling the Japanese government to alter its political stance toward China.
The US counter is likely unmanned UUVs and deployment of Mk60 mines, which will no doubt hunt such submarines.
 
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Equipping conventional submarines with weapons currently beyond defense capabilities would not only significantly impede combat operations by the U.S. mobile fleet in the East Asian Seas but also force it further back (to more distant waters).
Furthermore, it would render local territorial conflicts between the Japanese Self-Defense Forces and the Chinese People's Liberation Army unfeasible, compelling the Japanese government to alter its political stance toward China.

It seems a little presumptuous to assume that a weapon we know nothing about is “beyond defensive capabilities”. Were that true, one wonders where the PLAN will be forced to operate when the US introduces its air launched scramjet in about a year.
 

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