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China's New Helicopters - Z-10 and Z-19

Matej

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Stingray™ said:
Another photo of a possible mockup.
It has nothing to do with WZ-19. It is just mid 90s mockup of WZ-10 with fenestron. It was later dropped and helicopter has classic tail rotor.
 

Stingray

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Matej said:
Stingray™ said:
Another photo of a possible mockup.
It has nothing to do with WZ-19. It is just mid 90s mockup of WZ-10 with fenestron. It was later dropped and helicopter has classic tail rotor.

So a fenestron WZ-10 was actually considered? I had always known it to be pure speculation.
Thanks.
 

Deino

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Matej said:
Stingray™ said:
Another photo of a possible mockup.
It has nothing to do with WZ-19. It is just mid 90s mockup of WZ-10 with fenestron. It was later dropped and helicopter has classic tail rotor.
No, that nearly famous model is simply a model made by an enthusiast and si non related to both types. As far as I know even if probably considered a Fenestron was never tested or build for a mock up, esp with Agusta's assistance in the early development proces and Eurocopter's "influence" the Z-10 - PLEASE: the designation WZ is wrong !!!!! - had always a normal tail-rotor.

Deino
 

Matej

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Deino - are you sure? In 1997 state commission approved the design using a full scale mockup. I always thought, that it is this one. Attached is photo of its construction.
 

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Deino

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YEP ... to admit not 100% but nearly 98,7438% !

I remember that is an old aviation modelling enthusiast who always had the wish to build his own combat helicopter in an old garage behind his farm ;D ... As far as I remember it has no connection to the real Z-10.

Deino
 

Triton

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I thought that the People's Liberation Army was using the designation WZ for Wuzhuang Zhishengji, literally "armed helicopter", for attack helicopters while the People's Liberation Army Air Force used the designation Z for all helicopters because the WZ designation was used for unmanned aircraft? Hence CAIC WZ-10 and Harbin Z-19?
 

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No or YES, but simply Z-designations for all helicopters !
 

Triton

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From Wikipedia:

At the 9th Zhuhai Airshow held in November 2012, Aviation Industry Corporation of China formally announced the official names of WZ-10 and WZ-19 at a televised news release conference, with both attack helicopters are named after the nicknames of fictional characters in the Water Margin, one of the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese literature. WZ-10 is named as Fierce Thunderbolt (Pi Li Huo, 霹靂火), the nickname of Qin Ming, while WZ-19 is named as Black Whirlwind (He Xuan Feng, 黑旋風), the nickname of Li Kui.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Z-19

Thought it interesting, so I thought I would share. B)

Harbin Z-19 Black Whirlwind
CAIC Z-10 Fierce Thunderbolt
 

piko1

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very interesting thanks Triton ;)
now all we need is Hobby Boss Z-19
 

chuck4

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Triton said:
From Wikipedia:

At the 9th Zhuhai Airshow held in November 2012, Aviation Industry Corporation of China formally announced the official names of WZ-10 and WZ-19 at a televised news release conference, with both attack helicopters are named after the nicknames of fictional characters in the Water Margin, one of the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese literature. WZ-10 is named as Fierce Thunderbolt (Pi Li Huo, 霹靂火), the nickname of Qin Ming, while WZ-19 is named as Black Whirlwind (He Xuan Feng, 黑旋風), the nickname of Li Kui.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Z-19

Thought it interesting, so I thought I would share. B)

Harbin Z-19 Black Whirlwind
CAIC Z-10 Fierce Thunderbolt

For some reason, I suspect the name of those helicopters lost something in the translation.
 

Triton

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chuck4 said:
For some reason, I suspect the name of those helicopters lost something in the translation.
From what I have read about the novel The Water Margin, the story of Song Jiang and his 108 bandits is the Chinese folklore-equivalent of Robin Hood and His Merry Men.
 

seruriermarshal

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Chinese attack helicopter's secret Russian roots
Posted by Guy Norris 8:33 PM on Mar 06, 2013

Sergei Mikheyev, General Designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, member of the Russian Academy of Sciences and Hero of the Russian Federation dropped the proverbial bombshell at Heli-Expo here in Las Vegas this afternoon.

Saving the best to last in a briefing to update a series of Kamov programs, Mikheyev told an astonished crowd that China’s Z-10/WZ-10 attack helicopter was actually designed in great secrecy under contract for China by Kamov. Dubbed Project 941, the concept was initially designed in 1995 and developed by China into the WZ-10/Z-10.

The two-seat helicopter made its public debut at the 2012 Zhuhai airshow – and while the helicopter had been heard of before then – its appearance at the show came as a surprise. At the time observers noted an outward resemblance to the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta, but no connection was ever made to Kamov until today.

More details will follow in Aviation Week & Space Technology.



http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:a4ea89f3-93ec-4ad8-9955-732646b5a423
 

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piko1

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thanks seruriermarshal by the way if you have closer look at the main rotor blades and the stub wings on Z-10 there is clear resemblance to the Ka-50 and the fictional 58

can i ask why we don't have a HeliExpo 2013 thread yet it looks like allot intersting is happening out there ?
 

Reaper

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Sounds believable! From what I heard the Chinese had also help from the Russian for their fighter programs.
 

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This was revealed in 2007 on sinodefenceforum.com by a (former?) Kamov employee (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/search.php?searchid=120188)


I have always felt the Z-10 has a Ka-50 feel to it, specifically its 'chubbyness, its quite "sharklike".


Kamov is overstating the situation a bit - they handed over a preliminary design but the detail work and redesign of various elements are all Chinese.
 

Deino

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Truely an interesting revelation ... like Paul said that rumour appeared some very long time ago and was - including myself :-[ - not taken seriously. He also posted an image of that concept ...

Deino
 

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This is the image he posted, I believe. Its very much in the Kamov house art style and has clear Ka-50 influences.
 

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overscan

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And - ta-da - full vindication of the truth of this earlier revelation - look at the art top right.
 

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Mach42

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
This was revealed in 2007 on sinodefenceforum.com by a (former?) Kamov employee (http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/search.php?searchid=120188)


I have always felt the Z-10 has a Ka-50 feel to it, specifically its 'chubbyness, its quite "sharklike".


Kamov is overstating the situation a bit - they handed over a preliminary design but the detail work and redesign of various elements are all Chinese.
After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.

Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.
 

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Helicopter WZ-10 was project KAMOV Company at 1995 year for China Army.
I worked with this helicopter in that time.
kamov company carried out the followings works:
it is
- a structurally-power chart
- arrangement
- weight calculation
- aerodynamics

The Chinese side gave the sizes of equipment and weapon, type of engines (T-700), type of cannon (Am-23), amount of members of crew and requirement to the aerodynamic chart
Kamov Company ended the draft in the period 1995-1996. Release working design documentation produced Chinese side. For 10 years the helicopter changed a lot, the other engine, gun, sighting device and much more. Draft-Russian but helicopter - Chinese - and this is a very great achievement of Chinese Industry.
Incidentally, the project has been start from scratch. The closest to him, a prototype helicopter Ka-50

The Chinese side has paid for and received the draft. In "iron", it epitomized his own. Over the 10 past years helicopter certainly changed a lot of equipment, but little has changed outwardly
similarities helicopter WZ-10 with a "Tiger" or "Mongooses" akin similarity sharks and dolphin - different family but appearance...
All the quotes from the user. Funny how the information was right under the nose.
 

Triton

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Should we now be skeptical that the Chengdu J-20 and Shenyang J-31 are entirely Chinese aircraft designs? Should we suspect the involvement of Sukhoi or Mikoyan in these projects?
 

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I think there isn't any serious doubt that some degree of Russian involvement was associated with J-20 and J-31. The gap between the sophistication and up-to-dateness of previous Chinese fighter design experience and the J-20 is simply too great, in my opinion, for the Chinese to not try to manage that risk by asking for input from people with more experience.

The question is, were the Russian input essentially of one shot nature, where the Russians in effect had to give away the intellectual property along with the product so the Chinese would need them no more; or of a mere product of intellectual property type where that would cause the Chinese to come back again if they were to design another fighter in the future.

I think the Russian contribution to Z-10 appears to me have been the one shot nature where the Chinese mitigated the risk involved in designing a modern attack helicopter for the first time by seeking Russian input, but having gotten the initial validation, they needed the Russians no more.
 

yasotay

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Now that is an operational attack helicopter! All sorts of draggy cr.. stuff hanging off of it. :)
 

overscan

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Interesting factoid:


1984 - China buys S-70s with T700 engines.
1995 - China asks Kamov to make a new attack helicopter design powered by T700 engines.


Whats the betting that the original engine on Z-10 was an attempted T700 clone?
 

Deino

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Interesting factoid:


1984 - China buys S-70s with T700 engines.
1995 - China asks Kamov to make a new attack helicopter design powered by T700 engines.


Whats the betting that the original engine on Z-10 was an attempted T700 clone?
Interesting and highly plausible, but - Sorry - where did I miss that note that th´si type was to be T700-powered ?

Deino
 

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Russian Roots Revealed In China's Z-10
By Guy Norris guy_norris@aviationweek.com, Anthony Osborne tony_osborne@aviationweek.com

March 07, 2013

Sergei Mikheyev, general designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, has revealed that the Russian helicopter company secretly designed the baseline version of the Z-10 attack helicopter for China in the mid-1990s.

The two-seat helicopter made its public debut at the 2012 Zhuhai air show in China, having undergone extensive testing by the People’s Liberation Army for several years. While an outward resemblance to the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta was widely discussed, no connection was ever made to Kamov until Mikheyev’s announcement at the Heli-Expo convention here on March 6.

Commenting during a briefing on the Kamov product line, Mikheyev says the decision to reveal the Russian company’s role in the design of the Z-10 followed its unveiling by China at the air show late last year.

Kamov worked on the preliminary design at China’s request in 1995. “Due to understandable reasons this was kept secret, but we made the design and it was accepted by China,” Mikheyev says. The baseline design, which was known internally as Project 941, “was accepted for development,” he adds.

Until now, it was generally believed that the aircraft had been designed in China and that the only real foreign input was in the powerplant.

The Z-10’s development has been highly controversial. Five aircraft were powered by Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C engines fitted with full authority digital engine controls developed by Hamilton Sundstrand. Following investigations by federal agencies, United Technologies Corp., the parent company of the two firms, was fined $75 million for violating the Arms Export Control Act and making false statements in connection with the illegal export to China of U.S.-origin military software in June 2012.

According to evidence heard in the trial, China has sourced the engines under the pretense of producing a civil medium transport. PW&C provided up to 10 engines for the aircraft. Since then, it has been suggested that Z-10 manufacturer Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation has had to use a lower-rated indigenously-built engine in the helicopter, forcing it to undertake a significant weight-saving program until a new, more powerful engine becomes available.

Kamov is better known for its co-axial designs such as the Ka-32 transport helicopter and also the Ka-50/52 attack helicopters. The company is producing the Ka-62 utility helicopter.

“So I wish success to the helicopter,” Mikheyev adds.

 

overscan

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Deino said:
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Interesting factoid:


1984 - China buys S-70s with T700 engines.
1995 - China asks Kamov to make a new attack helicopter design powered by T700 engines.


Whats the betting that the original engine on Z-10 was an attempted T700 clone?
Interesting and highly plausible, but - Sorry - where did I miss that note that th´si type was to be T700-powered ?

Deino

From Kamov insider posts on Sinodefenceforum:

kamov company carried out the followings works:
it is
- a structurally-power chart
- arrangement
- weight calculation
- aerodynamics

The Chinese side gave the sizes of equipment and weapon, type of engines (T-700), type of cannon (Am-23), amount of members of crew and requirement to the aerodynamic chart
 

chuck4

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That seems odd. I would imagine the chinese needed more help in detailed engineering than high level design. Instead they seem to have subcontracted out the high level design and did the detailed engineering themselves, which is bass ackwards.
 

sferrin

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chuck4 said:
That seems odd. I would imagine the chinese needed more help in detailed engineering than high level design. Instead they seem to have subcontracted out the high level design and did the detailed engineering themselves, which is bass ackwards.
Not necessarily. You need expertise in helicopter design for the high level stuff. Lower level stuff can be done in house as all your loads and stuff are provided by the helicopter designer. You don't need to know how to design a helicopter to design a part that carries a predetermined load.
 

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chuck4 said:
That seems odd. I would imagine the chinese needed more help in detailed engineering than high level design. Instead they seem to have subcontracted out the high level design and did the detailed engineering themselves, which is bass ackwards.
I think it makes sense if you have a background in detailed helicopter design, but not in high level trade offs and specification development for a given mission (like an attack helicopter). Once you have written auseful specification, the detailed design is much like any other helicopter (or even similar to fixed wing aircraft).
 

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Bill Walker said:
chuck4 said:
That seems odd. I would imagine the chinese needed more help in detailed engineering than high level design. Instead they seem to have subcontracted out the high level design and did the detailed engineering themselves, which is bass ackwards.
I think it makes sense if you have a background in detailed helicopter design, but not in high level trade offs and specification development for a given mission (like an attack helicopter). Once you have written auseful specification, the detailed design is much like any other helicopter (or even similar to fixed wing aircraft).
Exactly right I think.
 

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My attempt to correct perspective. I don't have a 3 view of Z-10 to compare with though.
 

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overscan

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PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Deino said:
PaulMM (Overscan) said:
Interesting factoid:


1984 - China buys S-70s with T700 engines.
1995 - China asks Kamov to make a new attack helicopter design powered by T700 engines.


Whats the betting that the original engine on Z-10 was an attempted T700 clone?
Interesting and highly plausible, but - Sorry - where did I miss that note that th´si type was to be T700-powered ?

Deino

From Kamov insider posts on Sinodefenceforum:

kamov company carried out the followings works:
it is
- a structurally-power chart
- arrangement
- weight calculation
- aerodynamics

The Chinese side gave the sizes of equipment and weapon, type of engines (T-700), type of cannon (Am-23), amount of members of crew and requirement to the aerodynamic chart

Any photos of, or details of, WS-9? I can't see any. It might help to see if it could be in conception a T700 clone or has entirely different roots.
 
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