Chengdu J-10 "Vigorous Dragon" fighter

alberchico

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
317
Reaction score
548
Due to U.S. security restrictions, the J-10 cannot operate side by side with F-16's when they enter service. This article explains the level of oversight that exists pertaining to Pakistan's advanced F-16 fleet.


"On bases where advanced F-16s are present, the United States requires that Pakistan separate them from other aircraft and strictly limit access to the area where they are located."
 

Anduriel

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
Messages
138
Reaction score
199
Due to U.S. security restrictions, the J-10 cannot operate side by side with F-16's when they enter service. This article explains the level of oversight that exists pertaining to Pakistan's advanced F-16 fleet.


"On bases where advanced F-16s are present, the United States requires that Pakistan separate them from other aircraft and strictly limit access to the area where they are located."
Why, though?
 

Fluff

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Messages
896
Reaction score
820
Due to U.S. security restrictions, the J-10 cannot operate side by side with F-16's when they enter service. This article explains the level of oversight that exists pertaining to Pakistan's advanced F-16 fleet.


"On bases where advanced F-16s are present, the United States requires that Pakistan separate them from other aircraft and strictly limit access to the area where they are located."
Why, though?
Because the J10 will come with a Chinese on site support team, and they will not want a technically skilled team getting hands on with the F16’s. Reading the article, suggests to me, the us team is actually the support team for the f16’s.
 

Anduriel

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
Mar 4, 2020
Messages
138
Reaction score
199
Because the J10 will come with a Chinese on site support team, and they will not want a technically skilled team getting hands on with the F16’s. Reading the article, suggests to me, the us team is actually the support team for the f16’s.
I'm pretty sure if there was anything that China was interested in F-16 it got since long ago. Pakistan has 16A from, what, 80-es? There are a lot of retired personnel who could answer Chinese questions about how F-16 works.
And there is a case of Venezuela, which is also an F-16 operator.
I could understand if Pakistan had F-16V(N/bl70 whatever is the latest variant), but they have AM and C(M) variants that are not that new.
 

GTX

All hail the God of Frustration!!!
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2006
Messages
4,699
Reaction score
3,876
Website
beyondthesprues.com
Pakistan has 16A from, what, 80-es? ... And there is a case of Venezuela, which is also an F-16 operator.
I could understand if Pakistan had F-16V(N/bl70 whatever is the latest variant), but they have AM and C(M) variants that are not that new.
Errr...the PAF does have Blk 52s which are quite a step up from the earlier Blk 15s they or Venezuela have.
 

Fluff

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2019
Messages
896
Reaction score
820
Pakistan has 16A from, what, 80-es? ... And there is a case of Venezuela, which is also an F-16 operator.
I could understand if Pakistan had F-16V(N/bl70 whatever is the latest variant), but they have AM and C(M) variants that are not that new.
Errr...the PAF does have Blk 52s which are quite a step up from the earlier Blk 15s they or Venezuela have.
And their old aircraft were upgraded, to a close standard. I’m not saying I agree that either the Chinese can or have got the data already, nor that this would stop them, just explaining that even big air forces, will have technical teams, from the manufacturers, on site.
 

F-2

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
May 23, 2020
Messages
203
Reaction score
324
I’ve heard as much before. I understand the intake is related to the engine change? I’m unsure if this is the mock up or 1001 in 1996 before it had to be redesigned (I don’t think any pictures exist pre 1998). I know this pic is the mock up but I can’t tell if it’s the same as above.
 

Attachments

  • 2AF5FDBC-0259-41CB-9A85-D8D59C0E2ECE.jpeg
    2AF5FDBC-0259-41CB-9A85-D8D59C0E2ECE.jpeg
    72.6 KB · Views: 108

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
2,121
aside from the intake differences, is the rest of the plane similar or different from the current J-10? I havent seen a good picture of the sides.. although it seems this older version has a double delta wing.
 

F-2

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
May 23, 2020
Messages
203
Reaction score
324
aside from the intake differences, is the rest of the plane similar or different from the current J-10? I havent seen a good picture of the sides.. although it seems this older version has a double delta wing.
The top one is the same and I think it *might* be 1001 and is otherwise mostly the same. The mock up I’m unsure of I’ve only seen pictures of the front, but I heard it needed to be redesigned but to issues with lower then expected AoA and poorer low altitude mobility. I’m trying to find more pictures.
 

Trident

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 8, 2006
Messages
1,411
Reaction score
1,052
Nice! Cool to see a J-10 wearing a different camo pattern, even if it's still two-tone gray (though the PLAAF scheme cannot really be dignified with the term pattern, as it's just counter-shaded with tones that are so similar as to be virtually identical...)!

wow finally happened! is this the one with the DSI intake?

Going by the rounded fin tip, it's a J-10B or C with DSI, yes.
 

siegecrossbow

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
150
Reaction score
174
Nice! Cool to see a J-10 wearing a different camo pattern, even if it's still two-tone gray (though the PLAAF scheme cannot really be dignified with the term pattern, as it's just counter-shaded with tones that are so similar as to be virtually identical...)!

wow finally happened! is this the one with the DSI intake?

Going by the rounded fin tip, it's a J-10B or C with DSI, yes.

Interestingly it only has one dorsal antenna, which is what we see on J-10B. However we've seen prototype J-10C with one antenna as well.
 

Deino

Moderator
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
3,149
Reaction score
1,634
Some more ...

Seems as if the datalink antenna is missing?!

But since the PAF has it’s own datalink called Link Green 17, this eventually will be installed in PAC?



PAF J-10CP first confirmed - 20220215 - 7.jpg PAF J-10CP first confirmed - 20220215 - 6.jpg PAF J-10CP first confirmed - 20220215 - 5.jpg PAF J-10CP first confirmed - 20220215 - 4.jpg PAF J-10CP first confirmed - 20220215 - 3 spine.jpg


1644940366715.png
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
2,121
really beautiful plane.. the changes from the J-10A to S? was also a huge aesthetic change for the better too.
Pakistan should have gone for the J-10 in the first place.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
14,408
Reaction score
10,594
Some very nice high res photos. J-10CE is confirmed as the official designation by stencilling on the aircraft.

 

Attachments

  • 51932554604_86c39764ca_k.jpg
    51932554604_86c39764ca_k.jpg
    374.1 KB · Views: 41
  • 51932554599_37474cfcb7_k.jpg
    51932554599_37474cfcb7_k.jpg
    230.6 KB · Views: 45
  • 51932302618_27b4721388_3k.jpg
    51932302618_27b4721388_3k.jpg
    417.4 KB · Views: 51
  • 51932225031_dbc5aed403_3k.jpg
    51932225031_dbc5aed403_3k.jpg
    941.2 KB · Views: 57
  • 51932225071_b96bde3917_k.jpg
    51932225071_b96bde3917_k.jpg
    354.8 KB · Views: 61

F-2

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
May 23, 2020
Messages
203
Reaction score
324
I’ve always really liked the J-10. The J-10 actually got very early exposure in popular media in the 2005 video game Battlefield 2 where it’s one of the best regarded aircraft in game. Since the F-2 has always been my favorite plane, I was really excited that another single engine high highly agile fighter existed in East Asia, it was really fun for making scenarios and the like. The J-10B was extremely exciting because where as the A was a cool looking aircraft I thought it was a bit crude in looks with that boxy intake and short nose and technology (2005 being when the raptor came out and after the best known 4.5 gen aircraft) but the B looked so elegant and had some kinda phase array radar seemed at least very high tech. Over night it became my favorite “red” plane and still probably is at least in terms of mass production.

Anyway this has been a very long winded way of saying I’ve been following the J-10 since I was 14 and I’m happy to see it finally find success in the export market rather be an obscure solely domestic aircraft.
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
8,701
Reaction score
8,229
I’ve always really liked the J-10. The J-10 actually got very early exposure in popular media in the 2005 video game Battlefield 2 where it’s one of the best regarded aircraft in game. Since the F-2 has always been my favorite plane, I was really excited that another single engine high highly agile fighter existed in East Asia, it was really fun for making scenarios and the like. The J-10B was extremely exciting because where as the A was a cool looking aircraft I thought it was a bit crude in looks with that boxy intake and short nose and technology (2005 being when the raptor came out and after the best known 4.5 gen aircraft) but the B looked so elegant and had some kinda phase array radar seemed at least very high tech. Over night it became my favorite “red” plane and still probably is at least in terms of mass production.

Anyway this has been a very long winded way of saying I’ve been following the J-10 since I was 14 and I’m happy to see it finally find success in the export market rather be an obscure solely domestic aircraft.

And according to Wikipedia the Chinese have built 488 airframes so far. Now that's quite a respectable number.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
2,121

siegecrossbow

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
150
Reaction score
174
i just realized the Pakistani J-10s dont have a refuelling probe. any plans to add these later?

also interesting that North Korea might be the next operator.. but I feel its financially unlikely unless China is donating some old airframes.

quite interested to hear PAF exercises between its j-10 and F-16 fleets

They do have it actually.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=228&v=lJj0NHR0uUo&feature=emb_title


Refueling probe can actually be very easily attached/detached.
 

siegecrossbow

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
150
Reaction score
174

F-2

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
May 23, 2020
Messages
203
Reaction score
324
So a lot of the early J-10 history is merky, including when exactly the aircraft first flew in 1996 or 1998. But years ago their was a topic on key about an earlier turbojet powered prototype. I recently found similar claims on the Chinese web. The 1991 metal mock up may be no mock-up at all

In fact, the J-10 fighter has experienced several twists and turns in the selection and configuration of the power system. In 1984, the J-10 fighter development project codenamed "Project 10" was officially launched, and the duck static and unstable layout was initially determined as the final design scheme. However, it is followed by the selection of an advanced jet engine for the J-10 fighter. At that time, the jet engines for various types of fighters existing and under development in China, from turbojet 7, turbojet 13 imitating Soviet engines to imitation turbofan 9 and self-developed turbofan 6, could not meet the requirements of J-10 fighters, especially the gap in thrust indicators.
At that time, the United States and the Soviet Union began to develop a new generation of large-thrust turbofan engines while the third-generation fighter was developed and launched. However, with the strength of China's aviation industry, it is not possible to develop a new type of high-thrust turbofan engine while ensuring the research and development progress of the J-10 fighter. It happened that our country obtained the Soviet MiG-23 fighter from Egypt, and thus obtained the R29-300 turbojet engine with a stre of more than 10 tons of man-forced thrust. This was also the most advanced foreign jet engine that China could come into contact with at that time. Its 12.5 tons of aggravation thrust could basically meet the performance requirements of J-10 fighters.
Therefore, while determining the design plan of the J-10 fighter, China's aviation industry department decided to adopt a two-step strategy in the power system - first, imitate the Soviet-made R29-300 turbojet engine, codenamed vortex spray 15, and strive to complete the design as soon as possible to ensure that the J-10 fighter arrives to There are few power systems that can be used. The second step is to start the development of a new high-thrust turbofan engine codenamed Turbofan 10. Using the Turbojet 15 turbojet engine to equip J-10 fighter prototypes for test flight, the development of the Turbofan-10 "Taihang" high-thrust turbofan engine will be completed as soon as possible, and finally realize the design goal of "dual combination" of J-10 and Turbofan 10.
acdb421ce89846cd9688f15d1a9f03ab.jpeg

The early J-10 fighter full-size metal prototypes also used an oval leather-hosted inlet similar to the F-16.
However, to the surprise of Chinese aviation industry technicians, even if the physical object of the Soviet R29-300 turbojet engine is obtained for mapping and simulation, the research and development of the turbojet 15 engine is still very difficult. For us, the technical span from vortex 7/13 to vortex 15 is too large. Therefore, from 1984 to 1991, the engine research and development unit of China's aviation industry only completed the full-size metal prototype of the turbojet 15 engine. This year, the full-size metal prototype of the turbojet 15 engine was also equipped with the full-size metal prototype of the J-10 fighter, formally achieving the goal of two-machine integration. It is worth noting that at this time, the full-size metal prototype of the J-10 fighter still uses an oval leather-hosted air inlet similar to the F-16. Moreover, at that time, the rear fuselage and engine compartment of the J-10 were designed according to the size of Turbojet 15.
If the Turbojet 15 engine was continued to be developed as a J-10 fighter as planned at that time, even if the development progress can be guaranteed, the reliability of this engine may have many adverse effects on the test flight of the fighter. At that time, the replacement of the J-8III fighter with a Turbojet 14 engine was one of the most typical lessons. Moreover, according to the development trend of the third-generation foreign fighter at that time, the high fuel consumption turbojet engine has long been completely eliminated. Unexpectedly, everything turned around in 1991. That year, our country decided to introduce the world's most advanced Su-27 twin-produced heavy fighter from the Soviet Union. For this reason, after learning about the performance of the AL-31F high-thrust turbofan engine equipped by the Su-27 fighter, the relevant units found that the engine meets the requirements of the J-10 fighter, and its technical level is far from comparable to that of the imitation R29-300 turbojet 15 engine.
Therefore, after consultation and consultation with the leaders of the army, the relevant departments of the aviation industry finally decided to stop the imitation of the turbojet 15 engine in 1993 and select the Russian AL-31F high-thrust turbofan engine as the power system of the J-10 fighter. Due to its excellent performance and reliable leather, it will not only be used as a power system for the test flight stage of the J-10 fighter, but also continue to be used as a supporting power system for future mass production models. Of course, Russia also needs to improve and modify the AL-31F high-thrust turbofan engine in accordance with the installation requirements of the J-10 fighter, mainly to move the accessory receiver and other components under the engine to adapt to the single-engine and single vertical tail design. This is the AL-31FN that China purchased in large quantities all year round, and Russia later even developed a vector thrust version of this engine.
Here is another siting the chief engineers autobiography


. Hate to embrace the comparison of the two groups of emblems. Everyone also hopes to see the difference between these two groups of emblems. Recently, I have been pondering. What is the reason for this situation? Song Wen looked around at the hole in the venue and then continued: "After repeated calculations, he came to the conclusion that this is due to the replacement of the engine of the aircraft. The shape of the turbofan engine is larger. When changing the engine, the size of the rear fuselage is thickened. This will cause the force to increase. At the same time, it seems that the power of the two secondary engines is similar in theory. However, in actual use, the turbojet is changed to a turbofan. There are obvious differences in fan speed characteristics with different vertebral forces. Two A Two A Two
 

Attachments

  • B1165BE0-BDBC-4CF0-884B-112A0F3B1C9C.jpeg
    B1165BE0-BDBC-4CF0-884B-112A0F3B1C9C.jpeg
    31 KB · Views: 5

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
1,239
Reaction score
2,121
^ makes me wonder if Chengdu was able to get a better engine earlier, would the J-10 airframe become smaller in size?
 

Similar threads

Top