I don't believe it is. Would have thought Tactical Length would have presented some integration issues though given its larger size. The CGI doesn't appear to be big enough for Tactical Length looking at other T-26 side views (the height of a Merlin is converniently roughly the height of tactical length Mk.41)
Tought maybe its different for MK.41 single cell launcher? Given that it looks like only 6 cells which means if it is MK.41 its only the SCL or well 6 of them.
To be honest it doesn't make sense. Why not just have 32 Mk.41 Strike Length up front like the Australian Hunter Class? The UK's Type 26 has space for 24 CAMM cells up front, so why not 8 Self Defence or Tactical Length Mk.41 there on CSC...
Maybe. It also looks like it is a little bit larger which they could do. Just raise the mk.41 higher.
 
Maybe. It also looks like it is a little bit larger which they could do. Just raise the mk.41 higher.

It is after all just CGI, but from that it would need to be significantly taller relative to the stack.
 
Budget wise that would make sense...so probably wouldn't happen. It would address the complaint many have made around low missile count...8 Self-Defence Mk.41 could add 32 ESSM, along with 2 x 11 RAM in SeaRAM. With the 24 Strike Length Mk.41 and seperate canisterised NSM that would actually give CSC very reasonable missile stocks.
The graphic states "6-cell Mk 41 VLS". That's 24 ESSM II in place of the previous 24 CAMM.
 
The graphic states "6-cell Mk 41 VLS". That's 24 ESSM II in place of the previous 24 CAMM.

I'm not sure what their sourcing is. If they are relying on the latest infographic, it's clearly old and does not reflect the change from CAMM to RAM. That's where the 6 cells comes from, I believe. There is a 6-cell configuration of the Mk41 Single-Cell Launcher, but it looks quite different from the ExLS shown in the old illustrations. It would be noticable on renders.

ESSM was always included in the forward VLS. Not sure why they would be adding cells for ESSM as well as adding RAM launchers.
 
ESSM was always included in the forward VLS. Not sure why they would be adding cells for ESSM as well as adding RAM launchers.
Increased Magazine depth. If they fit Back there 24-32 ESSM then the front can be used for sm-2 and TLAM only. That gives probaly more SM-2's If they go with 8 TLAM's per ship. RAM will just fill the CWIS requierments without the need for an VLS
 
Another contract announced last week was to Halifax-based Irving Shipbuilding for a new fleet of warships destined for the Canadian Navy. The cost to build the first three River-class destroyers is of approximately $22.2 billion, excluding taxes, according to the Canadian government.

“By investing in our own industry, Canadian workers are helping to build the fleet of the future, equipping the Navy and our members in uniform modern and versatile ships they need for Canada’s important contributions to peace and security at home and abroad,” National Defense Minister Bill Blair said.

These contracts come at a critical time for Ottawa. Over the last month, it has been battling a trade war with its southern neighbor following the imposition of U.S. tariffs on imports from Canada.
 
Increased Magazine depth. If they fit Back there 24-32 ESSM then the front can be used for sm-2 and TLAM only. That gives probaly more SM-2's If they go with 8 TLAM's per ship. RAM will just fill the CWIS requierments without the need for an VLS
1741798235124.png
 
ExLS is a pipe dream now that its pretty mutch a baseline AEGIS ship apparently. Even then assuming they include RAM then using ESSM instead of CAMM makes sense.

Exactly. I think people are confused because the OLD plan was for a pair of three-cell ExLS (a relative of Mk 41) to house 24 CAMM. With RAM instead, you probably have Mk 49 launchers midships (or maybe SeaRAM?) and only the 24-cell Mk 41 forward for SM-2, ESSM, and TLAM.
 
Exactly. I think people are confused because the OLD plan was for a pair of three-cell ExLS (a relative of Mk 41) to house 24 CAMM. With RAM instead, you probably have Mk 49 launchers midships (or maybe SeaRAM?) and only the 24-cell Mk 41 forward for SM-2, ESSM, and TLAM.
SeaRAM would give even less missiles for little too no extra capabilitys. Still another 8 MK.41 for ESSM should have been choosen but who am i
 
New model of the River Class has been displayed....some changes...

Single Mk.49 launcher for RAM RIM-116, many thought there would be 2..
24 x Mk.41 VLS...down from 32
8 x NSM
And what appears to be a midships VL for Hellfire just between the mast and stack, presumably there is another on the starboard side for 18 rounds total (appears to be 2 x 9)

Can't see Outfit DLA or what decoy dispenser they'll be using yet either...just the SSTD decoy launcher.

Can't help but think that losing CAMM/ExLS and the 8 x Mk.41 is going to be regretted in the future...losing VL whilst everyone is thinking ships need more following the Red Sea combat and present actions seems to be very odd...

View: https://x.com/NoahGairn/status/2036090342630383830


View: https://x.com/RoyalCanNavy/status/2036446522049515595
 
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Good write up from Navy lookout...

Plenty I've missed...and got wrong...

- Leonardo LW127/64 has been changed to Mk.45, presumably with the auto magazine like the T-26, this makes sense as the Mk.45 is going on the T26 and Hunter so why waste all that design work and commonality...but....LM and Leonardo signed a contract for supply of 4 LW127/64 in 2021....
- Leonardo Lionfish 30mm mounts have been changed to MSI DS30M - Again a sensible move given Type 26 (Hunter has the new Typhoon 30C, no idea why they've gone down that route)
- What I thought was the LM Hellfire/JAGM VL is in fact an extremely large cluster of Nulka launchers, Canadian Navy is already a user...but thats the biggest cluster of them I've ever seen EDIT - Appears its the new launcher for the LM LEED decoy which replaces Nulka
- The dome above the bridge appears to be Next Generation Surface Search Radar

Quite a few changes...really surprised they've not increased the Mk.41 to 32 in light of Red Sea etc. and with CAMM/ExLS not being mounted. Can't see what chaff and flare decoy system they're using either.

 
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I'm not sure about that midships launcher. It's 3x3 for sure , but the canisters look oblong enough that each might hold two missiles.

But also, Canada hasn't actually ordered Hellfire for anything except their new MQ-9 drones.
 
Welp, serves me right for not loading the new messages before hitting "Post Reply"
 
I'm not sure about that midships launcher. It's 3x3 for sure , but the canisters look oblong enough that each might hold two missiles.

But also, Canada hasn't actually ordered Hellfire for anything except their new MQ-9 drones.

Turns out that everyone was stumped....its not a Hellfire VL, Nulka, ExLS or a really short Mk.56...

It's the never seen before launcher for the Lockheed Martin LEED....the Nulka replacement. Basically an active decoy using a drone....

 
Quite a few changes...really surprised they've not increased the Mk.41 to 32 in light of Red Sea etc. and with CAMM/ExLS not being mounted. Can't see what chaff and flare decoy system they're using either.
The Royal Canadian Navy came to the decision some time ago that since the current Halifax class frigates are in such a dire need of replacement, the River class design would be de-risked and finalized as soon possible to facilitate production. The loss of the additional 8 cell Mark 41 VLS module is indeed felt however, getting ships into the water is a priority at this point over pure cell count. They are looking at a way to add cells back into the design on future batch productions, but there are concerns around the vessels weight margins given the already extensive modifications made to the Type 26 design and the consequences we've seen with the Hunter class regarding weight addition spirals.

It seems likely the launchers amidships are a large centralized bank of decoy and potentially other systems, soft launched from a custom launcher. The sheer amount of decoys would drastically increase the survivability of the vessel against attacks, alongside its potent EW suite.
 

ELECTRONIC WARFARE & COUNTERMEASURES SUITE​

  • Radar/Radio Electronic Support Measures Frequency Identification / Surface Electronic Warfare Improvement Program Block 2 (AN/SLQ 32V6)
  • Laser Warning and Countermeasures System
  • Off-board Electronic Attack - LEED
The Canadian Govt confirmed today that those launchers amidships and Nulka has subsequently been deleted from the design, SEWIP Block 2 AN/SLQ 32V6 has also been confirmed as well for the EW suite specifically.
 
They are looking at a way to add cells back into the design on future batch productions, but there are concerns around the vessels weight margins given the already extensive modifications made to the Type 26 design
Oh god, NAVSEA have turned it into another Constellation!
 
New model of the River Class has been displayed....some changes...

Single Mk.49 launcher for RAM RIM-116, many thought there would be 2..
That single RAM launcher is badly wooded to the starboard bow/beam. Arcs were much less of an issue with CAMM being vertically launched.
 
That single RAM launcher is badly wooded to the starboard bow/beam. Arcs were much less of an issue with CAMM being vertically launched.

RAM can be programmed to turn after launch, I believe, so it can in effect steer around the superstructure.
 
Isn't Nulka basically an active decoy using a drone?
Its an active RF decoy that moves and hovers using a rocket motor, consequently its time on station is limited. LEED will use electrical motors and props so will have greater loiter time, plus will be able to move away from the targeted vessel and manoeuvre far more effectively.

Nulka made some sense at the time, but was hugely expensive, and now drone technology has moved forward. To be honest a trainable launcher (like Centurion) and an RF decoy on a parafoil would be very effective (like Mk.251 Siren)

The UK and France had a similar joint programme called OBAD/Accolade which had an advanced RF decoy integrated with a UAV that was launched from standard countermeasure dispensers. It underwent testing and then went quiet, with RN upgrading Siren. RN appears to be re-visiting with its MEWSIP programme, SEA Ancillia trainable launchers and a new loitering RF decoy requirement. I think we're only at the start of drone based countermeasures....Accolade was also trialled on a Halcyon USV (similar development arc as Britecloud on Stormshroud).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZMSb61ih3s&t=156s
 
RAM can be programmed to turn after launch, I believe, so it can in effect steer around the superstructure.
That's an interesting capability, much akin to VLS. Of course it then raises the question of why they don't just use it in a VLS and eliminate the cost and maintenance load of the trainable launcher.
 
That's an interesting capability, much akin to VLS. Of course it then raises the question of why they don't just use it in a VLS and eliminate the cost and maintenance load of the trainable launcher.

It is using its standard aero controls to steer. A trainable launcher gets it close to the right bearing, so you don't have to waste energy turning except to clear obstructions. VLS would require a separate TVC to tip over at low altitude.

But it has been proposed, both for LHAs in the 1990s and for ExLS more recently.
 
The Canadian Govt confirmed today that those launchers amidships and Nulka has subsequently been deleted from the design, SEWIP Block 2 AN/SLQ 32V6 has also been confirmed as well for the EW suite specifically.

Those launchers are for LEED...

If they were launching other countermeasures like chaff, obscurants or flares they would need to be canted, or more likely today...trainable.

I suspect Canada hasn't made a decision on a trainable launcher yet, hence why it doesn't appear on the model. They may end up going with the SEA Ancillia as the RN have chosen it for integration on T26.

What's weird in that list is that they name all of the systems and types....see "Hull-Mounted Sonar – Ultra Electronics Sonar S2150" for an example...But...."Towed Low Frequency Active & Passive Sonar"...doesn't have a name against it...they contracted Ultra for TLFAS in 2021...
 
Provided it succeeds and won't be navsea-ed, river seems to be the best(most sensible) T26 offspirng around.
T26 is a wannabe udaloy (meaning funny air defense capability), Hunter is absolutely inadequate radar lobby on ultimatley asw/multirole combatant.

Don't really think of 24 cells as a major downside, given that per available experience main non-AD ship interceptor should be ESSM, and there will be more than enough of them anyway.
Yes, with 32 you can afford to make SM-2 your main interceptor. Is it really worth it with spy-6/7v3?
Price is price, but it increasingly turns out, all things considered, smaller missiles in most cases get produced faster from available resources. To no one's surprise.
 
Provided it succeeds and won't be navsea-ed, river seems to be the best(most sensible) T26 offspirng around.
T26 is a wannabe udaloy (meaning funny air defense capability), Hunter is absolutely inadequate radar lobby on ultimatley asw/multirole combatant.

Don't really think of 24 cells as a major downside, given that per available experience main non-AD ship interceptor should be ESSM, and there will be more than enough of them anyway.
Yes, with 32 you can afford to make SM-2 your main interceptor. Is it really worth it with spy-6/7v3?
Price is price, but it increasingly turns out, all things considered, smaller missiles in most cases get produced faster from available resources. To no one's surprise.

Thing is...T26 could add CAMM-ER, and at that point has 48 ESSM+ capability...AND the 24 Strike Length Mk.41 empty still....and CAMM-MR, which has SM-2 capability with 100-150km range, active RF seeker and is twin packable in Mk.41 will be arriving at the same time as the 2nd or 3rd T26 enters service...just after 2030...

So the RN has easy upgrade options for AD that tie in with when T26 actually arrives....and the cells to use for those missiles. Host ExLS will be entering UK service with the T31's as well...so could easily be used on the T26 Mk.41 as well...you could have a 144 missile CAMM loadout....(but you won't ever do that).
 
Thing is...T26 could add CAMM-ER, and at that point has 48 ESSM+ capability...AND the 24 Strike Length Mk.41 empty still....and CAMM-MR, which has SM-2 capability with 100-150km range, active RF seeker and is twin packable in Mk.41 will be arriving at the same time as the 2nd or 3rd T26 enters service...just after 2030...
But that means, no CAMM-ER(trading some outer edge for dead zone and break in commonality? No funding available, and honestly probably rightly so) and even more certainly no ESSM(aren't procured and aren't integrated into FCS anyway). Certainly no CAMM-MR (there is no realistic point doing that on type 997) - to date it isn't a planned UK system either.
Honestly, 144 interceptors(which is roughly ~T31 in cost) in a country that struggles to fund flagship programs(T83, Tempest) is kind of wrong and will never happen.

Comparing it with River, which does have all said capabilities in from get go (with matching fire control, v relevant RCS signatures, at corresponding ranges) is unfair. In this sense it's better balanced than even Constellation and T54B, which are a bit on optimistic/offensive side concerning engagement ranges.
 
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But that means, no CAMM-ER(trading some outer edge for dead zone and break in commonality?

You can mix and match...

No funding available, and honestly probably rightly so)

CAMM-ER is the Medium range AD part in the SDR. Has previously been mentioned.

and even more certainly no ESSM(aren't procured and aren't integrated into FCS anyway).

ESSM+ = Superior to ESSM...which CAMM-ER is...

Certainly no CAMM-MR (there is no realistic point doing that on type 997) - to date it isn't a planned UK system either.

Type 997 will track out to 200km+...and CAMM-MR is a joint UK/Poland programme...saying its not planned is like saying FCASW isn't planned until very recently...
Honestly, 144 interceptors(which is roughly ~T31 in cost)

You're seriously over estimating CAMM cost....by many multiples...
 
You can mix and match...
Well, yes, but tbh I don't see much reason to. CAMM-ER to me personally seems to be a strange missile, neither there nor there. It makes more sense for IT navy as they have significant CIWS capability in form of strales, but otherwise i'd very much take no dead zone over additional range; otherwise, give me true CAMM-MR.
CAMM-ER is the Medium range AD part in the SDR. Has previously been mentioned.
Missed that, thanks.
Type 997 will track out to 200km+...and CAMM-MR is a joint UK/Poland programme...saying its not planned is like saying FCASW isn't planned until very recently...
It can detect to 200+, no problem. But detect what, IAF 655?

The problem is producing actionable tracks against relevant signatures, which, today and especially tomorrow, for SR SAM, seem to be going from 0,1m, downwards. IIRC claim for 997 is 25km for 0,05("golf ball"), which is a good, state-of-the-art ... CIWS level performance.

SPY7v3 with 4 faces should have many times the performance in everything tbh. Given generational difference, i'd personally expect at most parity at sea skimmer detection, and nothing close in everything else.
You're seriously over estimating CAMM cost....by many multiples...
I assumed ~$650k CAMM, $2mln ESSM/CAMM-MR.
 
Is it just me or has this Canadian Surface Combatant thread now slid back into a generic Type 26 frigate topic?
 

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