Canada's Next Submarine

Ironmiked

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Folks,

Everyone knows Canada is in the early stages of replacing its surface fleet with a Type-26 derivative to be equipped with TLAM. It's purchasing 88 F-35s. Lot's of politics in their current defense procurement plans. How should it refresh its submarine force? Canada briefly flirted with SSN in mid-80's. It ended up used UK boats, which have had marginal operational utility. AUKUS is moving forward. It could yield a truly excellent boat and powerful addition to arctic sea control. Japan and Germany are working on some very advanced conventional boats available for export (Yes, I see the irony). What's likely next Canada's submarine force? What's best for Canada's submarine force?


90
 
If Canada can join the AUKUS and get permission from the United States to introduce the nuclear submarine, I think SSN(R) will be the best next Canadian Submarine.
 
If Canada can join the AUKUS and get permission from the United States to introduce the nuclear submarine, I think SSN(R) will be the best next Canadian Submarine.
Most probable, yes. Albeit I suppose that joining the AUKUS may involve political obligations that Canada may wish to avoid - like getting involved in Taiwan situation and/or sending at least one Canadian nuclear submarine to Australia on rotation. So Canada may actually ask French shipbuilders for help here.
 
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If Canada can join the AUKUS and get permission from the United States to introduce the nuclear submarine, I think SSN(R) will be the best next Canadian Submarine.
Most probable, yes. Albeit I suppose that joining the AUKUS may involve political obligations that Canada may wish to avoid - like getting involved in Taiwan situation and/or sending at least one Canadian nuclear submarine to Australia on rotation. So Australia may actually ask French shipbuilders for help here.
Don’t you mean “Canada may actually ask French shipbuilders for help”?
 
If Canada can join the AUKUS and get permission from the United States to introduce the nuclear submarine, I think SSN(R) will be the best next Canadian Submarine.
Most probable, yes. Albeit I suppose that joining the AUKUS may involve political obligations that Canada may wish to avoid - like getting involved in Taiwan situation and/or sending at least one Canadian nuclear submarine to Australia on rotation. So Australia may actually ask French shipbuilders for help here.
Don’t you mean “Canada may actually ask French shipbuilders for help”?
No. I mean, like the Canadian-class SSN in the past, it's hard for Canada to introduce it without U.S. cooperation.
 
If Canada can join the AUKUS and get permission from the United States to introduce the nuclear submarine, I think SSN(R) will be the best next Canadian Submarine.
Most probable, yes. Albeit I suppose that joining the AUKUS may involve political obligations that Canada may wish to avoid - like getting involved in Taiwan situation and/or sending at least one Canadian nuclear submarine to Australia on rotation. So Australia may actually ask French shipbuilders for help here.
Don’t you mean “Canada may actually ask French shipbuilders for help”?
No. I mean, like the Canadian-class SSN in the past, it's hard for Canada to introduce it without U.S. cooperation.
I was commenting on Dilandu’s post.
 
I've always found it interesting how American opposition to a Canadian SSN has seemed to have such a high degree of influence.

If I were responsible for procurement I'd probably start work on an electric XLUUV with an advanced littoral navigation suite and a capacity to bottom for prolonged periods of time (I wonder if retractable/jettisonable skis could work as holdfasts?)

The idea would be to have a platform that could protect coastal waters and be very hard to detect due to its ability to fit into the sea-floor and have long endurance for its size. It would acts as a mobile minefield or weapons platform. This would allow us to close off coastal waters, including sealing off the Arctic islands (and Davis strait). It'd also be likely that we could recover costs through selling an export model to other smaller countries with an interest in sealing off their territorial waters on short notice.
 
If Canada can join the AUKUS and get permission from the United States to introduce the nuclear submarine, I think SSN(R) will be the best next Canadian Submarine.
Most probable, yes. Albeit I suppose that joining the AUKUS may involve political obligations that Canada may wish to avoid - like getting involved in Taiwan situation and/or sending at least one Canadian nuclear submarine to Australia on rotation. So Australia may actually ask French shipbuilders for help here.
Don’t you mean “Canada may actually ask French shipbuilders for help”?
No. I mean, like the Canadian-class SSN in the past, it's hard for Canada to introduce it without U.S. cooperation.
I was commenting on Dilandu’s post.
Oops... Sorry
 
The real question is whether the Royal Canadian Navy is going to take the Arctic Sovereignty question seriously.
That requires long endurance submarines that can operate under the Polar Ice Cap for months at a time.
We question whether Canadian tax-payers are willing to pay for that large an investment??????????
Please
Do not repeat the folly of letting submarines rust in a Scottish dockyard - for the better part of a decade - while negotiating leases on artillery ranges in Alberta.
I could write a book on Canadian Defense purchasing blunders (Bobcat, Brasdor, Sea King replacement, Buffalo replacement, CF-18 replacement, etc.) but it would be too depressing.
 
The real question is whether the Royal Canadian Navy is going to take the Arctic Sovereignty question seriously...

The real "real question is whether the [Government of Canada] is going to take the Arctic Sovereignty question seriously."

Having been burned by the Victoria class submarine experience, chances of Canada now making an AUKUS-style move is quite remote. Any future under-ice capability is most realistically handled by Avimimus' XLUUV suggestion.

To achieve a large uncrewed underwater vessel purchase by Canada, first make a realistic assessment as to why so many past DND procurement projects failed. [1] Then, have the GoC give a clear directive as to how an XLUUV procurement (and/or development) is to be handled:

1 - GoC must quickly (and conclusively) decide if it will accept the usual US entanglements in order to procure the XLUUV Orca - all the while remembering that the USN XLUUV project is both over-budget and years behind schedule. This GoC decision will, in part, be determined by whether the current Cabinet is willing to patch up its strained relations with Boeing?

If US technology-transfer conditions are unacceptable and/or a useful working relationship with Boeing is unattainable, the GoC should mandate dropping the XLUUV category entirely from DND's requirement.

2 - In the absence of XLUUV, launch a domestic (or no-strings foreign) programme to develop an LDUUV (Large-Displacement Uncrewed Underwater Vehicle) to meet the DND requirement. If domestic, for a timely project, that LDUUV should be based on the hydrodynamic form of the old, 40 foot-long Theseus AUV - as DRDC Atlantic has already posited for a conceptual Canadian Forces surveillance AUV.

3 - Springboard from existing Canadian subsurface experiments and expertise - eg: DRDC's CAUSE (Canadian Arctic Underwater Sentinel Experiment); Université Laval's Sentinel North programme; and civilian contractors like Ocean Networks Canada (for more West Coast experience - the Arctic understandably dominates thinking but current programmes are heavily skewed towards the East Coast).

4 - As a procurement sleight-of-hand, make any LDUUV procurement a growth 'capability' related to DND's existing RMDS (Remote Minehunting and Disposal System) project. In other words, as an 'add-on' to an existing requirement, a future LDUUV might avoid the usual DND requirement bloat. The idea being that LDUUV becomes a 'big brother' to the REMUS/Kraken Robotics combo (which make up the 'Light Weight AUV' component of RMDS now adopted for the Kingston class).

5 - Determine whether the ice class of the Harry DeWolf class AOPS (PC5) is adequate for the desire seasonal deployment of LDUUV to Canada's High Arctic waters. If not, procure used Arctic OSVs or (..shudder..) build an OTS design - perhaps Robert Allan's PC4 Beaufort 8200/8500?

6 - Upgrade the Nanisivik Naval Facility beyond refuelling to include seasonal accommodations for LDUUV operators (and support staff) and berthing for AOPS/OSV 'motherships'.

7 - Pray ...
____________________________

[1] Some believe that all the answers lie in 'government = bad' or in politicians and bureaucrats pandering to the mythical 'pacifist sheeple'. Clearly such people have never been to NDHQ or tracked the bloat factor in DND requirements!
 
There was previous U.S. opposition to the idea of Canadian SSNs. However, given the need to grow allied subsurface force structure and exploding global requirements, I doubt the same perspectives exist today. I think the opposite is actually true. If Canada expressed interest in joining the AUKIUS program, I suggest it would be welcomed by all AUKUS members.

From Wikipedia:

Canada-class submarine​

The Canada-class submarine was a proposed class of ten nuclear-powered attack submarines to be built for Canadian Forces Maritime Command (today's Royal Canadian Navy) with an option for two more. Announced in 1987, the class was intended to provide Maritime Command with a method for monitoring Canada's Arctic Ocean area while establishing Canadian sovereignty in the area. The announcement suffered significant public and private criticism and the project was cancelled before any of the submarines could be built.

American opposition​

The United States objected to the RCN having SSNs as part of its fleet, fearing a significant impact to its own submarine operations in North American waters and possible conflict over access to the Northwest Passage. In order to prevent this, the United States exercised its rights under two previously signed treaties. Under the 1958 US–UK Mutual Defence Agreement, the US had the right to block the sale of submarine nuclear reactors by the United Kingdom to any third party (i.e. Canada), and under a 1959 agreement between the US and Canada the US had the right to block the purchase of submarine nuclear reactors by Canada from any third party (i.e. the United Kingdom or France). Attempts to negotiate with the United States were initially unsuccessful, as Canadian Defence Minister Perrin Beatty was "told in no uncertain terms by the U.S. Defense Department and submarine service officials that a Canadian nuclear submarine program was unnecessary and even unwelcome.
 
... If Canada expressed interest in joining the AUKIUS program, I suggest it would be welcomed by all AUKUS members...

Probably. The main obstacle to Canadian SSNs would be internal political opposition. Back in the day, Perrin Beatty et al experienced the public resistance to nuclear-powered subs in general.

In any case, the key purpose of an RCN SSN would be to address challenges to Canadian sovereignty in Arctic waters. The problem with any US-related procurement in this area is the bit that no-one in Ottawa can mention publicly - the number one challenger to said sovereign waters is actually the United States.

AFAIK, no public revelation has ever be made of Soviet SSNs infringing upon Canadian sovereignty during the Cold War (although doubtless it happened). But unauthorized USN transits are known and details have been given of intrusions by British and French submarines. Canada must either abandon its sovereignty claims for the waters of the NWP or acknowledge that, in this instance, its major allies are not its friends.

Oh, and on Avimimus' XLUUV suggestion, a kiss-and-make-up with Boeing may well be underway ...
-- https://skiesmag.com/news/canada-requests-costing-possible-fleet-16-boeing-p-8a-aircraft/
 
The real question is whether the Royal Canadian Navy is going to take the Arctic Sovereignty question seriously...

The real "real question is whether the [Government of Canada] is going to take the Arctic Sovereignty question seriously." ...

[1] Some believe that all the answers lie in 'government = bad' or in politicians and bureaucrats pandering to the mythical 'pacifist sheeple'. Clearly such people have never been to NDHQ or tracked the bloat factor in DND requirements!
Please tell us more about the "bloat factor."

I only saw defense procurement from the worms's eye view ... er ... technician's perspective. ... and it was difficult to understand the logic in many decisions???????
Mind you, one of my co-workers (day job) is an air force reserve officer who is helping install cell-phone receivers in the new Airbus Kingfisher CSAR airplane. He hints at a variety of problems.
I also recently rubbed shoulders with some CSOR operators who hinted at silliness like a weight-and-balance sensor in the nose that requires moving balast when CSAR technicians jumps out the back end??????????
 
I blame our political and military leadership on 60/40 basis. Who get the majority of the blame varies from both subject and occasionally time of day and room temperature.
NDHQ has somehow in the public eye managed to avoid being held accountable for any number of procurement screw ups that have cost both billions and on occasion lives.
 
If they go with the AUKUS scheme the reduction in unit price may be sufficient for the main members to just build/sell the boats to the Canucks. Possibly a win/win. Possibly.......
 
Please tell us more about the "bloat factor."...

By 'bloat factor', I meant the seemingly irresistible temptation to keep adding on more and more 'capabilities' to each requirement. And, of course, that 'bloat' is on top of DND requirement that are already larded-up with whatever is trendy in the CANSEC brochures du jour. (This what Jim Dorschner - IHS Janes, Rotorhub, Defence Helicopter, etc. - used to refer to as 'gold plating'.) To be fair to NDHQ, some of the bloat come from a fear that no similar procurement opportunity may ever occur again. To that, I would say: 'Sit boldly behind that procurement desk!'

It may be OT but the CC295 Kingfisher you mention is a perfect example of how brainless DND procurement can be. It starts with a plan to replace the aging CC115 Buffalo fleet for fixed-wing search-and-rescue on the West Coast (with seasonal deployments to the Arctic). Seems straightforward. The Buffalo had been shunted over to FWSAR because the Air Force didn't want the CC115 as a tactical transport. Easy-peasy. Now, do you assess the desired features for FWSAR? Or do you just replicate the features of the tactical transport that you didn't want in the first place? (No prizes for guessing which option the Directorate of Air Requirements chose.)

Then, the 'bloat factor' really begins. First, decide that the CC115 was actually never big enough for ... oh, everything. [1] Then, announce that the new aircraft must have a pressurized fuselage (shirt-sleeve cockpit environment - yea!). Then, demand all those modern sensors which you've always insisted could not be afforded for CC115s. Penultimately, tack on a secondary role of longer-range FWSAR to take pressure off of the aging CC130H fleet. Finally, waffle on about possible tactical transport roles (!) and whether Canada needs six, 14, 15, 17, or 20-to-24 new FWSAR aircraft. Okay, excellent. We've got that FWSAR requirement narrowed right down now.

Some tedious dates: 2002 'project identification phase'; March 2004 - FWSAR Project launched (Martin Cabinet); April 2004 - FWSAR 'fast-tracked'; 2005 (or early 2006) - first deliveries expected; 2006 - FWSAR PMO dissolved (due to C-27J-skewed spec); 2007 - DND again advocates sole-sourcing C-27J; July 2009 - 17 x FWSAR promised (by Harper et al); 2015 - expected FWSAR IOC; Sept 2015 - FWSAR RfP; 2017 - expected FWSAR IOC; 2018 - expected FWSAR IOC; 2020 - expected FWSAR close-out; 2023 - FWSAR final delivery.

Okay, so that didn't happen either. The first CC295 Kingfisher didn't arrive until Autumn of 2020. And the full IOC for the CC295 fleet has now been delayed until 2025-26. Filling in for the Kingfisher fleet will be (... wait for it ...) the Hercules of 435 TRS - the very CC-130Hs that FWSAR was supposed to take the pressure off of 20 years!

Summing up, both wandering specs and later bloat occurred because NDHQ 'definition phases' are, ironically, able to successfully avoid any firm definitions. Instead, most project definitions turn into meandering wish lists. All of this is the result of flabby thinking. As GK Dundas has suggested, both the GoC and NDHQ bear responsibility for allowing this. And, at risk of sounding naïve, I still believe that it is fixable. Perhaps 'Plain Language' legislation (rather than guidelines) might be a start?

Apologies for the length of this OT sideline. And now back to submarines ...
______________________________________________________

[1] This despite the initial requirement demanding good manoeuvrability within the fjords of BC.
 
If they go with the AUKUS scheme the reduction in unit price may be sufficient for the main members to just build/sell the boats to the Canucks. Possibly a win/win. Possibly.......

Um, that is pretty much the opposite of what Canada's National Shipbuilding Strategy was/is intended to accomplish.
 
Please tell us more about the "bloat factor."...

By 'bloat factor', I meant the seemingly irresistible temptation to keep adding on more and more 'capabilities' to each requirement. And, of course, that 'bloat' is on top of DND requirement that are already larded-up with whatever is trendy in the CANSEC brochures du jour. (This what Jim Dorschner - IHS Janes, Rotorhub, Defence Helicopter, etc. - used to refer to as 'gold plating'.) To be fair to NDHQ, some of the bloat come from a fear that no similar procurement opportunity may ever occur again. To that, I would say: 'Sit boldly behind that procurement desk!'

It may be OT but the CC295 Kingfisher you mention is a perfect example of how brainless DND procurement can be. It starts with a plan to replace the aging CC115 Buffalo fleet for fixed-wing search-and-rescue on the West Coast (with seasonal deployments to the Arctic). Seems straightforward. The Buffalo had been shunted over to FWSAR because the Air Force didn't want the CC115 as a tactical transport. Easy-peasy. Now, do you assess the desired features for FWSAR? Or do you just replicate the features of the tactical transport that you didn't want in the first place? (No prizes for guessing which option the Directorate of Air Requirements chose.)

Then, the 'bloat factor' really begins. First, decide that the CC115 was actually never big enough for ... oh, everything. [1] Then, announce that the new aircraft must have a pressurized fuselage (shirt-sleeve cockpit environment - yea!). Then, demand all those modern sensors which you've always insisted could not be afforded for CC115s. Penultimately, tack on a secondary role of longer-range FWSAR to take pressure off of the aging CC130H fleet. Finally, waffle on about possible tactical transport roles (!) and whether Canada needs six, 14, 15, 17, or 20-to-24 new FWSAR aircraft. Okay, excellent. We've got that FWSAR requirement narrowed right down now.

Some tedious dates: 2002 'project identification phase'; March 2004 - FWSAR Project launched (Martin Cabinet); April 2004 - FWSAR 'fast-tracked'; 2005 (or early 2006) - first deliveries expected; 2006 - FWSAR PMO dissolved (due to C-27J-skewed spec); 2007 - DND again advocates sole-sourcing C-27J; July 2009 - 17 x FWSAR promised (by Harper et al); 2015 - expected FWSAR IOC; Sept 2015 - FWSAR RfP; 2017 - expected FWSAR IOC; 2018 - expected FWSAR IOC; 2020 - expected FWSAR close-out; 2023 - FWSAR final delivery.

Okay, so that didn't happen either. The first CC295 Kingfisher didn't arrive until Autumn of 2020. And the full IOC for the CC295 fleet has now been delayed until 2025-26. Filling in for the Kingfisher fleet will be (... wait for it ...) the Hercules of 435 TRS - the very CC-130Hs that FWSAR was supposed to take the pressure off of 20 years!

Summing up, both wandering specs and later bloat occurred because NDHQ 'definition phases' are, ironically, able to successfully avoid any firm definitions. Instead, most project definitions turn into meandering wish lists. All of this is the result of flabby thinking. As GK Dundas has suggested, both the GoC and NDHQ bear responsibility for allowing this. And, at risk of sounding naïve, I still believe that it is fixable. Perhaps 'Plain Language' legislation (rather than guidelines) might be a start?

Apologies for the length of this OT sideline. And now back to submarines ...
______________________________________________________

[1] This despite the initial requirement demanding good manoeuvrability within the fjords of BC.
The ability to utterly ignore what ever your purchase is actually supposed to do is a hallmark of Canadian Procurement since the Boer war . Probably even earlier then that.
 
If they go with the AUKUS scheme the reduction in unit price may be sufficient for the main members to just build/sell the boats to the Canucks. Possibly a win/win. Possibly.......

Um, that is pretty much the opposite of what Canada's National Shipbuilding Strategy was/is intended to accomplish.
I was talking about the need to tie Canada to the AUKUS agreement which as far as I can see, is not essential to the procurement/building of or selling the boats to Canada. If the Cannucks can build the boats in the same manner as the Ockers the reactor etc would still be bought in units. Nothing preventing the Cannucks building them.
 
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If they go with the AUKUS scheme the reduction in unit price may be sufficient for the main members to just build/sell the boats to the Canucks. Possibly a win/win. Possibly.......

Um, that is pretty much the opposite of what Canada's National Shipbuilding Strategy was/is intended to accomplish.
I was talking about the need to tie Canada to the AUKUS agreement which as far as I can see, is not essential to the procurement/building of or selling the boats to Canada. If the Cannucks can build the boats in the same manner as the Ockers the reactor etc would still be bought in units. Nothing preventing the Cannucks building them.
To be fair, the AUKUS has just mapped out the training up of Australian Service and Manufacturing staffs.
So there may be a stage where capacity to start up a Canadian effort could just follow on....
 
So, costs for the still-gestating Canadian Surface Combatant programme have already increased by 3.2 times. Fortunately, the RCN's just-announced Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP) is only expected to increase by 1.666 times :D
 

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