Canada's Next Submarine

[ArtosStark]

True, it's not as is if Montreal and Toronto are on the coast.

It's a long way from Halifax to the Northwest Passages, could the subs go to somewhere in Hudson Bay to resupply and do a crew swap to increase productivity?

There is Nanisivik, on Baffin Island. Which is what I expect would be used for that. Though anything that is supplied from there first needs to be supplied to there, which is a logistical job of its own.

 

[GK Dundas]

Aside from the cost of living I can't think of a better place to locate . It's incredibly beautiful area.

 

[Rule of cool]

A Sub tender could be an alternative option given the bottlenecks would be crews and transit distance/time.

 

[Apophenia]

... Esquimalt is not really much worse of a posting than Halifax, AIUI.

Based on what? Costs of base housing? Number of annual hurricanes? Ferocity of cherry-blossom blizzards?

CFB Halifax - January weather = average temp 0°C/-8°C; precip 11 days; humidity 73%
-- Snow depths of greater than 1 cm are seen on about 85 days each year in the HRM
CFB Halifax -- August weather = average temp +23°C/14°C; precip 11 days; humidity 84%-100%
-- Halifax has over 100 days of mist or fog each year.

CFB Esquimalt - January weather = average temp +8°C/+5°; precip 12 days; humidity 87%
-- Measurable snowfall (of any depth) on average about 4 days per year in the CRD
CFB Esquimalt - August weather = average temp +20°C/+13°C; precip 3 days; humidity 69%

All relative creature comforts aside, Fleet Maintenance Facility Cape Breton at CFB Esquimalt already specialises in submarine support. The question should be: Is it worth transferring all those specialities to FMS Cape Scott in order to reduce transit times to either NWP entrance? That should be the deciding question, not the perceived quality of basing.

 

[ArtosStark]

Based on what?

Equal level of moaning by the guys I know who have been posted to both.

CFB Halifax - January weather = average temp 0°C/-8°C; precip 11 days; humidity 73%
-- Snow depths of greater than 1 cm are seen on about 85 days each year in the HRM
CFB Halifax -- August weather = average temp +23°C/14°C; precip 11 days; humidity 84%-100%
-- Halifax has over 100 days of mist or fog each year.

CFB Esquimalt - January weather = average temp +8°C/+5°; precip 12 days; humidity 87%
-- Measurable snowfall (of any depth) on average about 4 days per year in the CRD
CFB Esquimalt - August weather = average temp +20°C/+13°C; precip 3 days; humidity 69%

Good night, man you’re in Canada. Try saying either of those are a problem to someone based in Cold Lake.

 

[jeffb]

Australia has to invest over $3 billion in expanding US nuke sub yards as one of the prerequisites for being allowed to buy some. Is Canada willing to pay that sort of price

Australia's investing $3B into the US sub building industry to bring construction capacity up to the 2.33 boats a year necessary to cover both the USN's requirements AND Australia's 3 to 5 subs.

There are real questions as to whether the US yards can actually achieve that build rate, even with the extra investment. So increasing it even more to cover a Canadian buy might not be possible.

 

[Apophenia]

... man you’re in Canada. Try saying either of those are a problem to someone based in Cold Lake.

So, no FMF Kinosoo Beach then?

 

[Scott Kenny]

The western basing has caused problems with crew retention in the RAN, it might be the same for Canada.

Should be fine, they're right next to Victoria BC.

It's a long way from Halifax to the Northwest Passages, could the subs go to somewhere in Hudson Bay to resupply and do a crew swap to increase productivity?

Conceptually, absolutely. The US has done that for decades. Crew rotations in Rota or Holy Loch or La Maddelena or Guam or...

There is Nanisivik, on Baffin Island. Which is what I expect would be used for that. Though anything that is supplied from there first needs to be supplied to there, which is a logistical job of its own.

You've got plenty of warning for when it needs to arrive, it's not a huge problem to have it hauled up by ship.

A Sub tender could be an alternative option given the bottlenecks would be crews and transit distance/time.

I would absolutely expect a Sub Tender/repair ship to be based there. In addition to whatever shore-side repair facilities there are. Basically, same setup as on Guam, just up in Hudson Bay so a lot less tropical.

 

[tychosis]

I worked in development and test of ARCI for Victoria back during initial install and spent a great deal of time with RCN submariners.

They are remarkably capable--but some of you guys are throwing out some crazy numbers. As I understand it, recruitment and retention numbers have been abysmal for at least a decade. Housing availability for many of these sailors is poor. Shoreside support is ehhh, lackluster at best.

They're really going to need a solid forward plan to resolve these issues before worrying about what fancy new boat to buy.

 

[Scott Kenny]

I worked in development and test of ARCI for Victoria back during initial install and spent a great deal of time with RCN submariners.

They are remarkably capable--but some of you guys are throwing out some crazy numbers. As I understand it, recruitment and retention numbers have been abysmal for at least a decade. Housing availability for many of these sailors is poor. Shoreside support is ehhh, lackluster at best.

They're really going to need a solid forward plan to resolve these issues before worrying about what fancy new boat to buy.

Yes, RCN/Canadian Armed Forces in general need to fix their recruitment and retention issues, badly!

But my numbers are what you'd need to have 1-2 subs out at sea in each ocean all the time (and therefore getting crews experienced in doing things). Strictly the strategic/operational/tactical level of "what Canada needs." Edit: Admirals saying "this is the area Canada needs to defend, what is required?" and then wishlisting if money was no object.

I'm not addressing how to pay for that many, or how to crew them, or how to keep them well-maintained; fixing those systemic issues will not be cheap or quick. And it will require cultural changes in DND as well, not shitting all over someone only enlisting for the standard 4 years active duty.

[consider there to be a full Sailor's vocabulary of profanity in just how bad the issues are, how urgently the fix is needed etc. several terabytes worth of profanity in each general concept.]