• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

British Chobham armour MICV

PMN1

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
733
Reaction score
79
From Sealordlawrence's post on MBT-80

I would add that at this point the British Army was also scheming 1,900 MICV's (which were originally meant to have Chobham armour and a 750hp engine with a total weight of 30 tons). MBT-80 was apparently cancelled in July 1980, it seems that prior to this (1979) it had been decided to use the Rolls Royce Motors C12 in a 1,500 hp configuration having beaten out the US AGT1500 gas turbine. The intention was for a power to weight ratio of 27bhp/t (weight of 55 tons. It had also been settled on a rifled 120mm gun.



Does anyone have any of the possible configurations for the MICV?

I recall a Panoroma type programme discussing the choice of armour for the MICV which questioned not using Chobham type armour and IIRC, this showed something more like a standard APC without a turret.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
PMN1,


An automotive test rig was apparently constructed at Chertsey for the 750hp version, I doubt it would have looked much different to the final Warrior. According to Foss the UK also followed the US XM-2 programme closely (which became Bradley). They also looked at the Abrams after the Challenger I debacle.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
To add to this thread, The excellent UK Armed Forced commentary blog reminded me that Warrior was proposed by GKN (they won all three production contracts Warrior) in a range of variants: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.com/2011/09/future-force-2020-armour.html (scroll to the bottom for profiles)


For some detail: APC90 (Perhaps what Panorama showed?) would have dispensed with one road wheel on either side and the turret and replaced it with a 7.62mm turret for a vehicle 25% cheaper than an MCV-80. The SPAA version, the Thomson-CSF SABRE was proposed and GKN and Marconi radar were said to have been working on a version with twin BMARC 30mm cannon. Of course one should also not forget project Thor for a 120mm mortar armed version.

Around the same time Royal Ordnance produced a family of light vehicles based on a chassis known as RO2000: http://www.dogswar.ru/oryjeinaia-ekzotika/bronetehnika/1901-samohodnyi-minomet-r.html



RO2000: Base vehicle
RO2001: SPG (122mm)
R02002: APC
RO2003: 120mm mortar
RO2004: Light tank with 105mm L7


Engine was a Perkins TV8-640 eight-cylinder diesel. The family was offered to Egypt.
 

xiaofan

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
109
Reaction score
13
Some pictures of RO2000 family of light vehicles. The pictures come form some old Chinese magazine.
 

Attachments

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
xiaofan,


Thank you, excellent pictures! It is fascinating that the RO2000 was a contemporary of the Alvis Stormer, one suspects that both RO and Alvis/MVEE (Military Vehicles and Engineering) both had what was then Future Light Armoured Vehicle (FLAV) in mind.
 

Old_ROF

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
18
Reaction score
4
A couple of slightly better images.

The family of vehicles was initially developed at ROF Leeds at the time the ROF's were being sold off / privatised. As I understand it they were intended to be a 'cheap' system which could be used to develop an in-country capability if required, so were not necessarily cutting edge in terms of performance, but had a degree of modularity incorporated into the design to enable alternative equipment fits to be used.

Some elements continued to be worked on post privatisation i.e. the 120mm AMS mortar system, as the core design was retained within the ROF's when Leeds was sold off to Vickers.
 

Attachments

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
Thanks for the pics and info Old _ROF
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,432
Reaction score
1,076
I recall the BBC documentary about the evolution of Warrior and the brief pictures of
a heavily armoured IFV being tested in the 70s. From what I remember it had a tank like
body with Chobham armour and looked more like the sort of thing the Israelis would come
up with.
I think at that stage the British Army wanted to stick with a battle taxi rather than a MICV
and the vehicle was not going to have a 30mm Rarden. The British were very sceptical of
German experience with the Marder and even the Warrior was less MICVlike than its competitors.
Have trawled round for pictures but cannot find any.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
uk75,


Are you sure about that? I have only ever seen even the earliest considerations of Warrior to be for an MICV, it would be very interesting if initially it was just an APC.

According to Cold War Hot Science the 30 tonne MICV (I can only assume it is the same Chobham armoured one Chris Foss refers too) would have had hydro-pneumatic suspension and a transmission called TN-17 that was similar to the Renk HSWL 354 developed for MBT70 and used for Leopard 2. The engine would have been the Rolls Royce CV8 rated at 750 hp, Rolls Royce received a part-funded contract for nine experimental engines according to The Magic of a Name: the Rolls Royce Story, Part II. In essence it would have been a very highly specified vehicle compared to what ultimately became the Warrior. That vehicles weight was reported in the economist in 1980 to have "grown" over 20 tons suggesting something lighter was in mind. It was 24 tons by 1984.
 

Abraham Gubler

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
3,556
Reaction score
135
Christopher Foss writing in his book “Warrior Mechanised Combat Vehicle 1987-1994” (Osprey Publishing) specifically says the early Chobham concept had a 30mm gun turret:

Project Definition 1

The initial proposals to consider future APC requirements for the British Army were undertaken between 1969 and 1971 by the then Fighting Vehicles Research and Development Establishment at Chertsey (this subsequently became the Military Vehicles and Engineering Establishment and is today part of the Defence Research Agency). The original concept was for a much heavier vehicle weighting around 30 tons, powered by a 750 hp diesel engine, a turret armed with a 30mm Rarden cannon and fitted with Chobham armour to give a high degree of battlefield survivability, but this was abandoned for cost reasons. An automotive test rig was built at Chertsey.

First industrial involvement came in 1972 when all United Kingdom manufacturers were invited to offer themselves as potential main contractors for PD1 (Project Definition 1) studies. As a result GKN and Vickers Defence Systems were selected to undertake competitive studies. Following completion of PD1 the firms were involved in a tendering exercise as one part of the 1972-1976 studies.

Then in 1976, as the programme became more clearly defined, the MoD decided for the first time in an armoured vehicle programme that full responsibility for the development project should be vested in a prime contractor and, following competitive tendering between GKN and Vickers, the former was appointed.
The Chertsey automotive test rig is unlikely to have included a turret, rather just some deadweight in its place, so would have the appearance of a traditional APC. It is also very unlikely that the heavy, Chobham armour concept of 1969-71 survived the GKN and Vickers PD1 studies (1972-76), if it even survived the Chertsey work. So any proposals from the commercial firms, especially for the tender, would be aluminum plate armour vehicles only. Foss also mentions in this book that after GKN built their first suspension test rig in 1980 they built two mobile test rigs one of which was armed with a two man 30mm gun turret and the other with a single man 7.62mm MG turret. Likely a further cause for confusion via the APC vs IFV nature of early MCV-80/Warriors.
 

PMN1

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
733
Reaction score
79
uk 75 said:
I recall the BBC documentary about the evolution of Warrior and the brief pictures of
a heavily armoured IFV being tested in the 70s. From what I remember it had a tank like
body with Chobham armour and looked more like the sort of thing the Israelis would come
up with.
I think at that stage the British Army wanted to stick with a battle taxi rather than a MICV
and the vehicle was not going to have a 30mm Rarden. The British were very sceptical of
German experience with the Marder and even the Warrior was less MICVlike than its competitors.
Have trawled round for pictures but cannot find any.
Sounds like the Panorama program I saw.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
PMN1, UK75,


You both seem to have similar recollections so perhaps there is a picture of this mythical beast floating around somewhere that might turn up one day?
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,432
Reaction score
1,076
Sealord, Abraham, PMN1

I have been trying to rack my brains when the documentary was. I agree it was Panorama
on British Arms procurement and high costs, but it was later than the 80s. Some time
in the 90s I think. I know I did not have a VCR at the time as I was rooming in London.

My comments about the British Army attitude to Marder and other MICVs was based partially
on something said in the programme but also remarks by a friend who was an officer in the TA
on Lionheart in BAOR (1980 or 1981?). Apparently the British thought the Germans tended to
use their Marders like mini-tanks and were reluctant to leave them. The British wanted their
infantry outside and using the terrain to defeat the enemy.
On GKN and Warrior development. International Defence Review in about 1969 or 1970 had a
full page spread with line drawings of the proposed new British Army transport fleet at the
time but also a line drawing of a GKN Sankey MCV 70 design which looked like the US M113
with firing ports and a Rarden turret mounted. I looked a lot more basic than Marder or
Warrior.
The experiment of fitting Rarden turrets to FV 432s in the 70s was not a success because
of the weight, cramped quarters and slow speed. They all ended up in the Berlin Brigade
until 1990.
Peak Engineering in the 70s offered a smaller lighter Rarden turret that could be fitted to
M113s and FV432s, but found no takers.
I think Abraham may be right in that the Panorama footage may have been of a test Chobham
Warrior without a turret that looked like an Israeli tank based carrier, and so fitted the narrative
of the British Army wanting a tank like vehicle. Journalists are famous for not showing the right
pictures of kit.
Another of these stories of the recent past on which more info is needed.

UK 75
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
Whilst we are on the subject of Warrior, does anybody know if anything other than the un-stabilised RARDEN was ever considered? Perhaps just a RARDEN with stabilisation? The earliest reference I can find to stabilisation for Warrior is Warrior 2000 with the Delco turret. (Yes I know about WLIP)
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
Nothing that we do not already know though it calls the 30 tonne MICV a "Heavy MICV" and places it in the mid 70s. Now all we need is a picture of the Automotive Test Rig!

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a131652.pdf

There are also references around to a vehicle called APC70 that i described as a "true combat carrier" (as compared to a true APC), at least one source says it was cooperative with the Dutch and it was definitely British. The designation was certainly in use in 1973.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
Ok, Earlier I mentioned that the APC90 that would have dispensed with a road-wheel either side. Well GKN actually built a 10 road-wheeled Warrior only it was a recce version and it came with a Delco defense turret, a crew of three and some enhanced armour protection.
 

Attachments

xiaofan

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
109
Reaction score
13
10 road-wheeled Warrior Reconnaissance Vehicle from another angle.
 

Attachments

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,432
Reaction score
1,076
Sealord

Thank you for the link and mention of APC 70. That was the vehicle I saw in an old edition
of International Defense Review. Fascinating that it was supposed to be another UK-Dutch programme.

The Dutch and Belgians met the requirement with the M113 derived YPR 765. Interesting as Belgium also bought some of the Scorpion family incuding Spartan.
 

jmiori

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Do you have a 3 side drawing of this vehicle???

Thanks in advance.
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,432
Reaction score
1,076
Jmiori

I am trying to track down the side view drawing from International Defense Review (a Swiss magazine published in the 60s and 70s). I think I have it somewhere.

For the YPR 765 the excellent Tanks of the World books published by Graef Verlag in Munich (I think) are excellent for all three views. There are editions in 1983 and 1991 I think. A new volume (Number 9) is in preparation and should be out either this year or early 2012.

UK 75
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
If anybody comes across any images, profile, photo or otherwise, of the 30 tonne Chobham armoured MICV I would love to see them.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
12,281
Reaction score
2,988
The Chobham MICV is referred to in passing in the BURLINGTON files at the UK National Archives (1970). See attached:
 

Attachments

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
Overscan,


Thanks for posting, it increasingly seems that a lot of work was done on this project prior to it being abandoned, it is strange that more information has not made it out.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
After a preliminary dig in the UK National archives it seems that the 30 ton 750hp burlington armoured MICV went by the designation PD1. Not only that but it was planned to be procured in multiple variants with varying numbers of road wheels. Attached are the following:

a) A drawing from a RARDE study looking at armament options- this particular drawing shows a two-man turret but all sorts of different configurations were considered

b) Even more exciting for me, from a study about potential platforms for the Foil rocket system is this variant with a proposed Foil launcher configuration. This six road wheeled version was the preferred choice but a five wheeled version was also studied
 

Attachments

PMN1

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
733
Reaction score
79
Any information on foil?
 

VIKINGTANK

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
6
Reaction score
5
Abraham Gubler said:
Christopher Foss writing in his book “Warrior Mechanised Combat Vehicle 1987-1994” (Osprey Publishing) specifically says the early Chobham concept had a 30mm gun turret:

Project Definition 1

The initial proposals to consider future APC requirements for the British Army were undertaken between 1969 and 1971 by the then Fighting Vehicles Research and Development Establishment at Chertsey (this subsequently became the Military Vehicles and Engineering Establishment and is today part of the Defence Research Agency). The original concept was for a much heavier vehicle weighting around 30 tons, powered by a 750 hp diesel engine, a turret armed with a 30mm Rarden cannon and fitted with Chobham armour to give a high degree of battlefield survivability, but this was abandoned for cost reasons. An automotive test rig was built at Chertsey.

First industrial involvement came in 1972 when all United Kingdom manufacturers were invited to offer themselves as potential main contractors for PD1 (Project Definition 1) studies. As a result GKN and Vickers Defence Systems were selected to undertake competitive studies. Following completion of PD1 the firms were involved in a tendering exercise as one part of the 1972-1976 studies.

Then in 1976, as the programme became more clearly defined, the MoD decided for the first time in an armoured vehicle programme that full responsibility for the development project should be vested in a prime contractor and, following competitive tendering between GKN and Vickers, the former was appointed.
The Chertsey automotive test rig is unlikely to have included a turret, rather just some deadweight in its place, so would have the appearance of a traditional APC. It is also very unlikely that the heavy, Chobham armour concept of 1969-71 survived the GKN and Vickers PD1 studies (1972-76), if it even survived the Chertsey work. So any proposals from the commercial firms, especially for the tender, would be aluminum plate armour vehicles only. Foss also mentions in this book that after GKN built their first suspension test rig in 1980 they built two mobile test rigs one of which was armed with a two man 30mm gun turret and the other with a single man 7.62mm MG turret. Likely a further cause for confusion via the APC vs IFV nature of early MCV-80/Warriors.
Hello all. Came across this thread while researching a distant memory of a British heavy APC on the BBC news in the late 70's (I think). The story was about the future MBT-80 tank and showed, and briefly mentioned, an 'APC version' which could be seen in the distant background; possibly the one seen by some on the above mentioned Panorama program. I always wondered what happened to this vehicle.

However to the Warrior APC/MICV debate. In 1982 as a young soldier, or there abouts, I remember having a military vehicle magazine, Defence Technology I believe, that did a big colour article on the MCV-80, that became the Warrior, which had one vehicle with the 30mm gun turret and one with the one man 7.62mm turret. The writer surmised that the vehicle would be purchased in both versions with a infantry platoon having 3 x MG armed APC versions and one 30mm turreted version for the Platoon Commander.

I also have some experience on the Warrior, as a qualified gunner/Platoon Commander, and also on the Desert Warrior sold to Kuwait.

By the way if you are interested in the evolution of the Warrior and other British vehicles have a look at this (but put the kettle on first and clear your diary for a couple of hours):

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/06/story-fres-introduction/

The site is actually about the mess the British MOD made of the FRES or Future Rapid Effects System family of vehicles - but Warrior is there including images of the prototypes etc.
 

uk 75

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
2,432
Reaction score
1,076
JFC Sorry Forgot to thank you for posting those two images

Vikingsun Just finished the FRES Story. Wods fail but an excellent site.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
That is the Qinetiq Advanced Composite Armoured Vehicle Platform (ACAVP), it was built as a technology demonstrator for monocoque composite hulls.
 

VIKINGTANK

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
6
Reaction score
5
Hello challengertwo, Thanks very much for the CV8 MTRA image; any more info or images as I have never seen this vehicle or image before? And where is it now? Great stuff, Vikingtank.
 

JFC Fuller

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2012
Messages
3,238
Reaction score
745
Think Defence has the following statement:

As the MCV-80 project progressed into manufacture a separate study was started to examine the wider requirement for armoured vehicles, Armoured Fighting Vehicles (AFV’s) for the Eighties. The first stage looked at medium weight vehicles. Stage 2, main battle tanks, and stage 3, a self-propelled anti-tank gun (SPAT) with an air-portable variant called ASPAT. All the concepts except ASPAT used an evolved MCV-80 design with greater protection, weighing 43 tonnes, ironically, about the same weight at the latest Warrior and Scout variants. ASPAT was to reuse on CVR(T) components and weigh 12 tonnes, the same approximate weight as the latest CVR(T) Mark 2 vehicles.
The sounds a lot like the beginning of the Evolutionary National Tank Project that was schemed with a 1,000hp two-stage turbocharged Rolls Royce CV8 mated to a TN55 transmission and for which various 140mm gun designs were produced.
 

alejandrogrossi

CLEARANCE: Restricted
Joined
Sep 20, 2019
Messages
14
Reaction score
11
Ok, Earlier I mentioned that the APC90 that would have dispensed with a road-wheel either side. Well GKN actually built a 10 road-wheeled Warrior only it was a recce version and it came with a Delco defense turret, a crew of three and some enhanced armour protection.



Very similar to Desert Warrior of Kuwait´s Army
 
Top