Boeing B-52J / B-52 Re-Engining

[mkellytx]

Four crew members seem confirmed

B-52H air crews are now trained to operate with just four members – Alert 5

Minimum aircrew was always 3. Pilot, Co-Pilot and Radar Navigator. EWO, Nav and Gunner are optional stateside, although for combat the EWO and Nav are typical crew, 6th seat can be an additional pilot if the mission exceeds 12 hours. Jump seats are IP, IN, IEWO and a hammock that goes behind the IP seat for up to 10 persons, 6 in ejections seats, 4 wear parachutes.

Which directly bears on the controlled ejection sequence; Navigator first, the all the jump seat guys jump through the Nav's hatch with Radar as the jumpmaster, Radar, Defense, Co-Pilot, Pilot (hopefully I still pass my weekly knowledge quiz). Defense leaves after offense especially if the emergency is an avionics bay fire since the open top hatches would draw the fire into the offenders, pilots before the defense b/c in an uncontrolled ejection one of their hatches killed a defender.

If two seats are removed they are the Nav seat and the Gunner seat. Cool FYI, when NASA modified 0025 to replace 0008 they removed the Nav seat and so modified the jet that it could never return to service. Hence, after they let it sit idle for a few years we had to ferry it to Sheppard to become a maintenance trainer

 

[starviking]

I have to wonder how much of this is ‘the march of technology’, and how much is savings from eliminating crew.

From the source

Currently, the bomber has a navigator seat, a radar seat for the weapon systems officer, and an electronic warfare officer seat. In years to come, the B-52 is scheduled to get a new radar, a new set of engines, and a lot more capabilities in its offensive equipment.
With that, Bohl said it will take less people to operate.

The workload for new students has increased significantly as they learn to transition between each compartment, said Bohl.

Bolding mine.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Pennywise, pound foolish is still very much alive and kicking, alas.

 

[mkellytx]

I have to wonder how much of this is ‘the march of technology’, and how much is savings from eliminating crew.

From the source

Currently, the bomber has a navigator seat, a radar seat for the weapon systems officer, and an electronic warfare officer seat. In years to come, the B-52 is scheduled to get a new radar, a new set of engines, and a lot more capabilities in its offensive equipment.
With that, Bohl said it will take less people to operate.

The workload for new students has increased significantly as they learn to transition between each compartment, said Bohl.

Bolding mine.

It will be both people and equipment if they physically remove the seats. Logistics wise, these are 60 year old ejection seats so that can’t be cheap to maintain, heck the T-38 got rid of theirs for modern seats. Downstairs that reduces them by half. Upstairs it reduces them by a quarter.

The EWO seat is significantly less automated than the B-1 which went away from dedicated DSO/OSO roles 20+ years ago, that learning curve has to be a bit more steep. Time will tell.

 

[mkellytx]

Pennywise, pound foolish is still very much alive and kicking, alas.

Indeed, the biggest advantage is a second set of eyes to catch errors. If the seat is physically removed it also limits training since the IN seat is on the bulkhead to the landing gear all the way at the back of the downstairs and crew have to be in a seat for critical phases of flight. Elimination of the Gunner seat would also eliminate the option for augmented crews in combat for long missions. Time will tell…

 

[Josh_TN]

Four crew members seem confirmed

B-52H air crews are now trained to operate with just four members – Alert 5

Minimum aircrew was always 3. Pilot, Co-Pilot and Radar Navigator. EWO, Nav and Gunner are optional stateside, although for combat the EWO and Nav are typical crew, 6th seat can be an additional pilot if the mission exceeds 12 hours. Jump seats are IP, IN, IEWO and a hammock that goes behind the IP seat for up to 10 persons, 6 in ejections seats, 4 wear parachutes.

Which directly bears on the controlled ejection sequence; Navigator first, the all the jump seat guys jump through the Nav's hatch with Radar as the jumpmaster, Radar, Defense, Co-Pilot, Pilot (hopefully I still pass my weekly knowledge quiz). Defense leaves after offense especially if the emergency is an avionics bay fire since the open top hatches would draw the fire into the offenders, pilots before the defense b/c in an uncontrolled ejection one of their hatches killed a defender.

If two seats are removed they are the Nav seat and the Gunner seat. Cool FYI, when NASA modified 0025 to replace 0008 they removed the Nav seat and so modified the jet that it could never return to service. Hence, after they let it sit idle for a few years we had to ferry it to Sheppard to become a maintenance trainer

Hasn't the gunner station been completely removed and its just a seat now?

Also what is IP, IN, and IEWO in this context? Where are the jump seats located? I know there's two levels, with pilots facing forward, to crew facing aft, and two more crew on the lower level (nav and EW?).

 

[TomcatViP]

 

[FighterJock]

I never realised that the B-52 had downward firing ejection seats, you learn something new every day. Thanks TomcatVIP.

 

[Josh_TN]

Thanks for that! Where would the jump seats be located, between the the sets of seats on the upper deck?

 

[TomS]

I haven't seen anything said specifically, but does it seem likely that the goal is to eliminate the lower deck crew and seat all four on the upper deck in the modified aircraft? With the total cockpit rework planned, they could set up the two aft upper-deck seats as multi-function stations as in the B-1. Then maybe turn the lower deck space into a rest area for extra crew on extended flights.

 

[mkellytx]

Hasn't the gunner station been completely removed and its just a seat now?

It's been 14 years since I last flew the girl, but when we FTE's flew, the Gunner seat was our station. Balls 50 had nice orange equipment there for us to get data. The regular aircraft still had the equipment for the gunner to one degree or another, but the circuit breakers were all pulled, collared, and the equip inop.

Also what is IP, IN, and IEWO in this context? Where are the jump seats located? I know there's two levels, with pilots facing forward, to crew facing aft, and two more crew on the lower level (nav and EW?).

@TomcatViP second photo shows the IP seat, it folds up and stows behind the Pilot (A/C) seat. The hammock would mount behind that, never saw it at KEDW. The "I" stands for instructor. The IEWO seat is behind the EWO seat, the intercom for the Gunner seat doesn't get audio from the EW system but that jump seat does. The IN seat is literally welded onto the door to the landing gear bay, right next to the urinal and on top of the entry hatch. So, up to 3 jump seat crew upstairs, 1 downstairs, 4 upward firing ejection seats and 2 downward firing, up to 10 crew total.

 

[mkellytx]

I haven't seen anything said specifically, but does it seem likely that the goal is to eliminate the lower deck crew and seat all four on the upper deck in the modified aircraft? With the total cockpit rework planned, they could set up the two aft upper-deck seats as multi-function stations as in the B-1. Then maybe turn the lower deck space into a rest area for extra crew on extended flights.

Doubtful, it would involve massive rework ($$$) to move the displays and controls for the offenders upstairs.

Also, the Bone stations are still different from one another, just the displays now can show some of the same data one to another. The left side still has some specialized EW stuff there IIRC, forget if they gave the DSO station a Mud Hen backseat stick for Sniper. Then again, those pretty color displays were only a PowerPoint presentation when I was in the squadron, I was long gone by the time that became actual hardware. We were slumming it with the Laptop Controlled Targeting Pod and green monochrome CRT's back then.

 

[TomS]

Doubtful, it would involve massive rework ($$$) to move the displays and controls for the offenders upstairs.

I think I may have gotten an incorrect impression that they were totally rewiring the cockpit anyway. CONECT is supposed to have added new displays and made it possible to digitally share data between stations. But it's not a clean sheet rewiring of the cockpit so you're probably right that the downstairs station will remain.

 

[mkellytx]

Doubtful, it would involve massive rework ($$$) to move the displays and controls for the offenders upstairs.

I think I may have gotten an incorrect impression that they were totally rewiring the cockpit anyway. CONECT is supposed to have added new displays and made it possible to digitally share data between stations. But it's not a clean sheet rewiring of the cockpit so you're probably right that the downstairs station will remain.

Yes, CONECT changed existing displays to more modern ones and added all kinds of good data links on the back end. I did get to see some of that hardware in the Boeing SIL, but I wasn't on the jet when the bro's IFE'd into Wichita with Balls 36 to get it modded. When the jet got back to KEDW I was at Trout.

There's a lot of other stuff down there, so it's not an easy lift so to speak.

 

[TomcatViP]

As always @mkellytx, thank you for the detailed info.

@FighterJock :

Source:

Downward Ejection Seats - Lethal or Logical? : The Ejection Site

 

[Josh_TN]

“Lethal, Logical, or Better Than Nothing “.

 

[mkellytx]

As always @mkellytx, thank you for the detailed info.

@FighterJock :

Source:

Downward Ejection Seats - Lethal or Logical? : The Ejection Site

Always glad to reminisce. The seats are good down to 250 ft. AGL no sink rate and there were successful ejections that low. Never had a second thought sitting in the Nav seat versus one of the jump seats when it was available. Bonus you would get to play with the radar, TPod and EO/IR there versus a jump seat. The old SAC trained killers were also a blast to sit next to, especially on low levels.

 

[NeilChapman]

Pennywise, pound foolish is still very much alive and kicking, alas.

Yep, the Navy went down this path. They will never learn.

 

[NMaude]

Pennywise, pound foolish is still very much alive and kicking, alas.

Yep, the Navy went down this path. They will never learn.

What did the Navy do?

 

[NeilChapman]

Pennywise, pound foolish is still very much alive and kicking, alas.

Yep, the Navy went down this path. They will never learn.

What did the Navy do?

LCS - reduced manpower was part of the sell.

 

[NMaude]

LCS - reduced manpower was part of the sell.

Haven't those warships been discovered recently to be suffering severe structural fatigue cracking?

 

[mkellytx]

Pennywise, pound foolish is still very much alive and kicking, alas.

Yep, the Navy went down this path. They will never learn.

What did the Navy do?

Many believe the Navy gave up far too much needed capabilities for "transformational" capabilities or what were said to be less expense platforms or less expensive platforms that in the end cost more than what they replaced. Lots of variations on the theme.

Navy shipbuilding other than submarines is a mess. Naval Aviation get's a fair amount of criticism for the abandonment of long range F-14/A-6/A-7/S-3 aircraft, for the A-12/NATF train wreck that left them with an all Bug fleet. The only good thing that can be said about the latter is that Naval Aviation avoided the tired iron problem the Air Force got themselves into retiring all kinds of capability on the promise that they would get airplanes a future admin later refused to buy.

Back on topic, whether or not that saying is valid for the upgraded BUFF is still TBD. Certainly the new engines and radar will add a lot. A four person crew is definitely viable, it's tough to judge its wisdom without knowledge of how it will be implemented. It's always nice to preserve the option for two guys downstairs and not need it than to not have the option and to need it. Kind of like parachutes and/or ejection seats.

 

[aonestudio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1572254332770197506

View: https://twitter.com/BoeingDefense/status/1572254332770197506

 

[robunos]

Came across this image, and as it doesn't seem to be posted here . . .


cheers,
Robin.

 

[NMaude]

I wonder when the first re-engined B-52 will fly?

 

[BlackBat242]

Just a note on reduced crew for modernized warplanes.

In 1970 the EA-6B Prowler entered service in the USN (first carrier deployment was in 1971).
It required 4 crew - pilot, nav/EWO, and 2 more EWOs.
By the 1990s, after a series of upgrades, they routinely flew in operational missions overseas (including combat areas) with only 1 full-time EWO, plus the pilot and nav/EWO. By the early 2000s some missions were flown with only the pilot and nav/EWO.

The EF-111A Raven flew in operational USAF service from 1977 to 1998, with only the pilot and a single nav/EWO to operate its ECM system that was derived from that in the EA-6B - simplified and much-automated, but nearly as capable.

The EA-18G Growler, which entered service in 2009, also with only the pilot and a single nav/EWO, and an improved full-capability version of the EF-111/EA-6B's EW system that features even more automation, is MORE capable than the EA-6B ever was with all 4 crew.

 

[Nik]

"I wonder when the first re-engined B-52 will fly?"

Sorry, my morning-fuzzed eyes read this as, "... first rear-engined ...", so I got a bit of a shock...

 

[MadRat]

That would be interesting, but would have required a lot of recertification I'm sure.

I get the impression that criticism around this program is that it was some sort of gift to industry. The stockpile of current engine parts is approaching critical levels. There are no new engines of these old engine models, and the parts all have wear and tear on them. The pool of parts was already a problem 20 years ago and it hasn't got any better.

 

[isayyo2]

New Cockpit

A Boeing statement accompanying the image said it shows off “new 8 x 10 digital displays, hybrid mechanical-to-digital throttle system, new data concentrators units (2x), new engine fault maintenance recorder, new engine air data system (and) modified system panels, as well as structural, electrical, pneumatic and hydraulic updates associated with this modernization effort.”

Image of New B-52 Cockpit Shows a Cleaner Layout | Air & Space Forces Magazine

A new digital rendering of the B-52 bomber’s new cockpit shows a layout with many new “glass cockpit” color displays.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[bobbymike]

Sorry if it’s been mentioned but with the new engines very significant efficiency upgrade has there been published unrefueled range numbers?

 

[Josh_TN]

Sorry if it’s been mentioned but with the new engines very significant efficiency upgrade has there been published unrefueled range numbers?

The only thing I’ve seen published is a 25-30% more fuel efficient estimate.

EDIT: and apparently that is a dated figure; below post indicates 30-40.

 

[TomS]

Sorry if it’s been mentioned but with the new engines very significant efficiency upgrade has there been published unrefueled range numbers?

Contract for New B-52 Engines 'Imminent' | Air & Space Forces Magazine

The Air Force expects to award a contract on the B-52 re-engining program within the next nine days, service acquisition officials said Sep. 21.

www.airandspaceforces.com

The program seeks to replace the B-52’s original-equipment TF33 engines with new business-class power plants that should improve fuel burn by 30 percent and range by 40 percent,

So that's not an actual range, but you can probably deduce it from published figures for the B-52H. And of course, that was a target from before the final selection, so it could change specific to the F130. But any way you slice it, if they get even close to a 40% range increase, that's a huge relief to the tanker force.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

New Cockpit
View attachment 685859

A Boeing statement accompanying the image said it shows off “new 8 x 10 digital displays, hybrid mechanical-to-digital throttle system, new data concentrators units (2x), new engine fault maintenance recorder, new engine air data system (and) modified system panels, as well as structural, electrical, pneumatic and hydraulic updates associated with this modernization effort.”

Image of New B-52 Cockpit Shows a Cleaner Layout | Air & Space Forces Magazine

A new digital rendering of the B-52 bomber’s new cockpit shows a layout with many new “glass cockpit” color displays.

www.airandspaceforces.com

I don't see the lever for the jump to light speed

 

[Josh_TN]

I don't see the lever for the jump to light speed

It's to the left of the pilot's station.

https://digitalstrategies.tuck.dartmouth.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/LudicrisSpeed.jpg

 

[flateric]

New Image Shows How B-52 Will Look After Engine, Radar Replacement | Air & Space Forces Magazine

A new image from Boeing shows how the B-52H will look after a series of modifications, rendered from a digital system prototyping model.

www.airandspaceforces.com

 

[Josh_TN]

Looks like they are removing the EVS system and some of the older ECM aerials as part of the makeover. Probably part of the radar refit, which as I understand it might take place separately for some aircraft. Also confirmation of reduction to four man crew.

 

[isayyo2]

Clean Shaven again

 

[taildragger]

Looks like they are removing the EVS system and some of the older ECM aerials as part of the makeover. Probably part of the radar refit, which as I understand it might take place separately for some aircraft. Also confirmation of reduction to four man crew.

Apparently the EVS fairings have been empty for years. Removing them may allow the max. permitted speed to be restored - not because of the drag reduction. The max. permitted speed had been reduced because, above a certain speed, the fairings disrupted airflow over air data probe(s).
Removing empty fairings sounds like the sort of minor surgery that could have been performed long ago in the field.

 

[Archibald]

The B-52H already had colossal range (I've seen 16 000 km ) then adding 40% more... wow. 22 000 ? 24 000 km ? whatever, should be a pretty jaw-dropping number.

Boeing B-52H Stratofortress

Ferry range 10,145 miles
That's 16327 km ferry range, +40% is close from 23 000 km !

 

[TomcatViP]

The idea is to have them fly without requiring as much tanker as they do today.