Bell V-280 Valor

Cordy

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Rolls Royce annonced agreement with Bell to power a production V-280, no memtion of actual engine, prototype V-280 uses 2x T64s, ~4,000 hp each, assuming RR engine will be a variant of the AE2100?

The tiltrotor V-280 to reach its speed of ~300 knots needs more power than the new gen Army funded ~3,000 hp GE T900 with its lower fuel consumption and maintenance can provide, instead will rely on update of an old gen engine.
 

FighterJock

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Rolls Royce annonced agreement with Bell to power a production V-280, no memtion of actual engine, prototype V-280 uses 2x T64s, ~4,000 hp each, assuming RR engine will be a variant of the AE2100?

The tiltrotor V-280 to reach its speed of ~300 knots needs more power than the new gen Army funded ~3,000 hp GE T900 with its lower fuel consumption and maintenance can provide, instead will rely on update of an old gen engine.

That will annoy Pratt and Whitney and GE, Rolls Royce getting to power the V-280, that is if Bell wins the competition.
 

yasotay

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RR AE 2100 is on MV-22 is it not? Bell may be thinking more progressively than others. Honestly I suspect T900 would still need uprating to meet some of the FLRAA requirements. After all the T900 was designed for H-60/H-64 and FARA. The FLRAA requirements are significantly more than the current helicopters and the future scout requirements.
 

Sundog

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RR AE 2100 is on MV-22 is it not? Bell may be thinking more progressively than others. Honestly I suspect T900 would still need uprating to meet some of the FLRAA requirements. After all the T900 was designed for H-60/H-64 and FARA. The FLRAA requirements are significantly more than the current helicopters and the future scout requirements.

Not to mention if the V-22 and V-280 have the same engine, there are economy of scale savings with the other services. Although, I don't know if they share in that regard, in terms of depots.
 

TomcatViP

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Don't you think it could be more related to a UK buy? I mean, RR get to engine all Valor MoD would buy.
 
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apparition13

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Don't you think it could be more related to a UK buy? I mean, RR get to engine all Valor Mod would buy.
Speaking of a UK buy - would there be an issue with mounting Erieye? Assuming it has the endurance, this platform might work well as an AEW aircraft for QE/Cavour/Juan Carlos/etc., but I wonder about the blind spots in the naval context and if the props could be a problem.
 

yasotay

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I think that both the multi-service and allies options likely cemented the deal. Bell has worked closely with RR for several decades, there is likely some serendipity in the way this has worked as well.
 

TomS

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Don't you think it could be more related to a UK buy? I mean, RR get to engine all Valor Mod would buy.
Speaking of a UK buy - would there be an issue with mounting Erieye? Assuming it has the endurance, this platform might work well as an AEW aircraft for QE/Cavour/Juan Carlos/etc., but I wonder about the blind spots in the naval context and if the props could be a problem.

Erieye would not work with the rotor and wing stow mechanism they've shown for the V-280 shipboard versions (basically the same as the Osprey; wing rotates parallel to the fuselage). And I really doubt it has the cargo capacity. FLRAA has a sort of vague payload requirement now, but definitely significantly less than Osprey.

If there was interest in tilt-rotor AEW, Osprey is clearly the better platform. And a lot of work has been done along those lines, including ways to make the Cerberus radar suite in the Merlin into a roll-on kit for Osprey through the rear ramp. What is lacking is the money.
 

yasotay

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RR AE 2100 is on MV-22 is it not? Bell may be thinking more progressively than others. Honestly I suspect T900 would still need uprating to meet some of the FLRAA requirements. After all the T900 was designed for H-60/H-64 and FARA. The FLRAA requirements are significantly more than the current helicopters and the future scout requirements.
I was under the impression that FATE was the intended FLRAA engine, but that project seems to be on the back burner lately.
Given the very likely fiscal constraints that are coming to DoD, regardless of elections, and that the FLRAA vendors were given carte blanche to select engines, I very much believe that FATE, has met its fate.
 

yasotay

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"U.S. Army Redstone Test Center (RTC) Experimental Test Pilots (XPs) conducted flights of the Bell V-280 Valor"

"U.S. Army experimental test pilots are graduates of the U.S. Naval Test Pilot School (USNTPS)…" Plural.

"Paulsen is a 2008 Mechanical Engineering graduate of the U.S. Military Academy."

"Department of the Army Civilian (DAC) Cowan served in the Army from 1993 to 2013."

Ah. If I missed something I will accept correction.
 

marauder2048

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Charlie Packard, who flew the S-97 is a civilian ATEC test pilot.
Paulsen, who flew the V-280 is a serving Major.
 

yasotay

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Charlie Packard, who flew the S-97 is a civilian ATEC test pilot.
Paulsen, who flew the V-280 is a serving Major.
Fair enough. I accept the correction. Bell has now had four government test pilot fly the V-280. Two of whom are still serving and two who are government service.
 

yasotay

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The challenge will remain the velocity of the (vectored) thrust. Recall that the V-22 series is criticized for the velocity of its outwash. The smaller the thrust device, the higher the velocity of air being pushed. I recall having heard several times that the Harrier "could dig its own grave" when trying to land off of prepared surfaces. Even the RAF had to make "semi-prepared" hide sites for Harrier to operate from back in the Cold War days. So for a special operations aircraft that is suppose to go to unimproved places, to function there is going to have mean some nifty propulsion work to be done. I would have thought to recommend ESTOL technology as a better solution for the overall parameter, but then one must remember that some of their "customers" will want to be able to land on a roof or at least fast-rope out of the aircraft. Yasotay's maxim #1 applies - Physics suck!
 

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My guess is they're looking at a jet that uses a couple of rows of electric ducted fans (think where they were trying to locate ejector lift systems). But something that uses electric lift. There's also that ducted fans in wing canard concept that was shown as a model within the past year. Whatever the case, I'm sure he is talking about something that uses some form of distributed electric propulsion.
 

yasotay

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Electric lift is certainly getting advanced enough to be a real possibility I agree, but I have to wonder if it has progressed to the point where the weight fraction is small enough to make it economically feasible to carry them around.
 

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AS much as i would like industry to develop a Senior Citizen aircraft, where is AFSOC going to get the money for it? Considering the (likely) small production run, it would be an astronomically expensive aircraft. I don't know that you can align the interests of other services to get a larger buy...
 

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The USN/USMC might be interested in an emergency evac aircraft for their proposed 'missile marine' garrisons.
 

TomcatViP

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Anyone here think like me that it could also be a rocket landing aircraft with cheap 3d printed nozzles (expandable) using kerosene as fuel and (fan?)jet and wings for horizontal flight?

Imagine a jet pack, but with rockets, strapped to an airplane.
 
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yasotay

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Have to ask our wonderful moderators if this is divergent enough to be its own thread (starting from #659). Especially as the USAF General made a point of this NOT being part of the FVL program.
 

Grey Havoc

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Anyone here think like me that it could also be a rocket landing aircraft with cheap 3d printed nozzles (expandable) using kerosene as fuel and (fan?)jet and wings for horizontal flight?

Imagine a jet pack, but with rockets, strapped to an airplane.

One shot drop shuttle with an extraction capability you mean? Possible.
 

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I wonder, how does the V-280 Valor compare with the MV-22 Osprey in terms of overall cargo carrying capability and range?
 

Cordy

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Powerplant, Bell reached agreement with RR for them to supply the propulsion system for the V-280 in July, so how accurate is the rest of the specs quoted by Janes?
 

yasotay

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Thanks for the great chart! Interesting what a couple of decades of experience does for a technology. That said, one must recall that V-280 is a tech demonstrator, nor does it have all of the gear necessary to transform into a smaller deck space, talk to all of the units, and protect itself. So Janes is comparing a combat aircraft to a technology demonstrator. As @Cordy just pointed out Bell has agreement with RR for engines for their FLRAA offering. Likely a derivative of the AE1107 core. So the numbers will of course be different.
 

AeroFranz

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@yasotay beat me to it - The cruise speed comparison may not be an apples to apples comparison. The V-22 figure looks representative of an operational aircraft. The V-280 doesn't have all the 'warts' that are needed to turn it into a military machine (EO/IR turret, RWR, DIRCM, all the comms antennas, chaff/flare dispensers, etc.). It's still probably faster -it doesn't have the draggy cargo ramp, for one. But conversely, that ramp is handy for loading stuff...
 
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TomcatViP

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@AeroFranz : as a side note, I don't think the ramp would be of much use for the V-280 operational development. You are not going to load cargo on an helo for an 800 nautical miles journey. .. You schedule a C-130.

Then a Navy V-280 might want to have that trick. Perhaps.
 
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AeroFranz

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I see the two vehicles as serving different missions with some overlap. So yeah, some services might spring for one versus the other.
 

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yasotay

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Lots of good info out of the podcast.
 

TomcatViP

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The Rakkasans participated in what the U.S. Army Futures Command calls a “Soldier Touchpoint.” Soldier Centered Design is a key element of how Army Futures Command is taking on modernization of the Army. “Soldier feedback early in the design process aids in getting the requirements right and ultimately putting useful capability into the hands of warfighters in the near term, not decades from now,” said Brig. Gen. Walter Rugen, director of the Future Vertical Lift (FVL) Cross-Functional Team (CFT).

As members of the rifle squad conducted ingress and egress drills with their full kit, engineers took copious notes from comments on the cabin configuration, seat layout, restraint harnesses and headrests of the V-280. “The headrests were somewhat of a hindrance when wearing the Kevlar helmet and would most likely be worse if we had our NODs (night optical/observation devices) attached,” commented Sgt. 1st. Class Vuthy Hamm an operations sergeant for the 2-506th Infantry Regiment.[...]
It wasn’t just about assessing the cabin space and seat utility though, there were some advanced technologies the infantrymen were able to try out and provide feedback on. In a partnership with Bell Helicopter, Lockheed Martin developed the Pilotage Distributed Aperture Sensor, or PDAS for short, which allows the inhabitants of the Valor to see 360 degrees through the skin of the aircraft while in flight. Though initially developed for the aircrews, the Army wanted to have the Soldiers don the PDAS prototype goggles to determine the potential application for passengers.

“This would definitely give us an advantage and improve our situational awareness,” Sgt. 1st. Class Hamm said. “We would be able to see terrain features and landmarks on approach to the LZ (landing zone) and have our bearings before exiting the aircraft.”

 

TomcatViP

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Valor hits 200 flight hours:
Over the course of the technology demonstration period, Flail added, the aircraft was also able to show its reliability and availability.
“This configuration of tiltrotor really shows how robust it is in terms of reliability and availability because one of the tricks with proving that is you have to accumulate enough data to show that you do have a reliable system,” he said. “A lot of your critical items, your gearboxes and your blades … those are typical cost drivers downstream and today, we still have the six blades and gearboxes on this aircraft.”
 

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