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BAe Multirole Capsule 1987

Archibald

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I've seen the pic at Astronautix, but the text is (of course) new to me. A pity ESA kept on with Hermes (I blame the CNES for that even if I'm a frenchman!)
 

starviking

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Archibald said:
I've seen the pic at Astronautix, but the text is (of course) new to me. A pity ESA kept on with Hermes (I blame the CNES for that even if I'm a frenchman!)

Well, at the time I was disheartened by the Hermes cancellation (and I'm a Brit!). However, seeing how the Shuttle is giving way to a capsule (Orion) it really is a pity Her Majesty's Government didn't push this effort... :'(

Starviking
 

PMN1

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Archibald said:
I've seen the pic at Astronautix, but the text is (of course) new to me. A pity ESA kept on with Hermes (I blame the CNES for that even if I'm a frenchman!)

Especially since BAe say A4 could have been used to launch it.
 

Michel Van

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Archibald said:
A pity ESA kept on with Hermes (I blame the CNES for that even if I'm a frenchman!)

I blame CNES and German government how screw things badly up
 

archipeppe

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Michel Van said:
Archibald said:
A pity ESA kept on with Hermes (I blame the CNES for that even if I'm a frenchman!)

I blame CNES and German government how screw things badly up

It's easy to shoot at the scapegoats after the failure....

Seriously CNES and Germans are to blame, but not too much (especially considering that I'm Italian....).
At that time Hermes seems the top of the line and not so impossible to achieve, when you start such challenging programme you really don't know if you succeed (Americans know it very well, considering the various X30, X33, X38 and so on).

Looking back it is right to say "would be better spend our (litterally) money on less challenging manned space capsule (especially considering that it could be in service right now, free us by Americans and Russians and even Chinese), but in 1981/86 aerospaceplane like Hermes seems to be the most logical choiche.....
 

Archibald

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PMN1 said:
Archibald said:
I've seen the pic at Astronautix, but the text is (of course) new to me. A pity ESA kept on with Hermes (I blame the CNES for that even if I'm a frenchman!)

Especially since BAe say A4 could have been used to launch it.

What was Ariane 44L (the 4*vulcain strap-ons) exact LEO payload ? Rather hard to find on the web for a simple reason : Ariane rockets tend to be build for GEO orbits (even Ariane V needed mods to launch the 20 tons ATV into LEO).

Even more bizarre, the Ariane 4 still have (IMHO) a better safety record than the Ariane 5, having only 3 failures over 113 flights (around 97%+)
counting the VERY STUPID 1990 accident caused by... well, you know... ::)

I understand Archipeppe point, but the fact is, 15 years after Hermes cancellation Europe still struggle to have a manned spacecraft.

Btw the 4 m diameter of Bae Capsule is close from ATV own diameter.

Archipeppe considering your gorgeous renderings of spacecrafts, are you up for a Bae Multirole Capsule 3-view ?
 

Michel Van

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What was Ariane 44L (the 4*vulcain strap-ons) exact LEO payload ?

Astonautix http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/arine44l.htm
LEO Payload: 10,200 kg (22,400 lb). to: 200 km Orbit. at: 5.20 degrees.

Arianespace page - Ariane 4 user manual
http://www.arianespace.com/site/launcher/ariane4_heritage_sub_index.html
LEO Payload: 8987 kg (19,812 lb). to: 200 km circular Orbit. at: 60° degrees.


i love that rocket, was a good workhorse
 

archipeppe

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Archibald said:
Archipeppe considering your gorgeous renderings of spacecrafts, are you up for a Bae Multirole Capsule 3-view ?

Sure!!

I need only some more reference pictures and/or drawings, the only I have is that one enclosed in the first post (I remember that Marcus Lindroos website had some more, not so much anyway, infos...too bad that the site in no more online....), and it is too little to start a "realistic" drawing.
 

Archibald

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I tend to forget that rocket payload tend to change because of orbital inclination... (I suppose this is the reason why there's two different payloads here, one for 5° and other for 60°...)

Internet archive has saved part of Lindroos website, but only the Shuttle/ RLV part (Introduction...) maybe they'll salvage the whole thing one day ?
An easier way would be to contact Mr Lindroos, but it seems he has vanished from earth surface since june 2001.
More seriously, maybe Mr Wade could help (as he used Lindroos collections for Astronautix)

I plan to use a side-view of the capsule and graft it onto the ATV profile I've found of the web.
This would give a 28 tons European TKS / Big Gemini - like spacecraft...
 

archipeppe

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Archibald said:
I plan to use a side-view of the capsule and graft it onto the ATV profile I've found of the web.
This would give a 28 tons European TKS / Big Gemini - like spacecraft...

If I could manage to do the work (of drawing the BAe capsule), for sure I will also manage to produce a 3 views of a modified ATV topped by the BAe capsule anyway.

In any case I'm also preparing a presentation regarding the outstanding Big Gemini, stay tuned..... ;)
 

archipeppe

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I quote Michel Van about the A4 LL.

I love it too, it's a pity that ESA and Arianespace decided to stop the programme (ok A5 is on the way but.....).

With its payload capability A4 would allows ESA to have a manned spacecraft programme (capsule based) since mid-'90s, if you think it is unlikely stop one moment and think about that Chinese launcher Long March 2F (CZ-2F, is that one used to launch Shenzhou spacecraft) is very similiar to Ariane 4.....
 

flateric

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Interesting that Multi-Role capsule had its successor from Bristol University team, Excalibur, it was 2002-2005 timeframe.
Ariane V or Space Shuttle launch, 'hot helicopter' landing (a-la DC-X), Reaction Engines Ltd. Sangrail engine.

With a 5.6m by 4.5m elliptical base Excalibur
can be mounted on large launch systems such
as Ariane 5. It can also be mounted (at a 45
degree angle) within a 4.5 m payload bay
such as on the Space Shuttle.

With a crew of three and a mission length
around a week the Excalibur end of life mass
is taken to be 5000 kg. The two internal tanks
can carry 5100 kg of usable propellant after
RCS and UFS propellants are accounted for.
This gives a mission velocity of 2.1 km/s,
which is adequate for all return to Earth
missions including those from lunar orbit.
 

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archipeppe

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Many, many thanks Flateric for you kind (and rich) contribution on the matter.

Anyway this is one of the oddest reentry shape I've ever seen......
 

flateric

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Excalibur hiding in the Shuttle orbiter bay
 

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Archibald

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archipeppe said:
Archibald said:
I plan to use a side-view of the capsule and graft it onto the ATV profile I've found of the web.
This would give a 28 tons European TKS / Big Gemini - like spacecraft...

If I could manage to do the work (of drawing the BAe capsule), for sure I will also manage to produce a 3 views of a modified ATV topped by the BAe capsule anyway.

In any case I'm also preparing a presentation regarding the outstanding Big Gemini, stay tuned..... ;)

You're welcome (on Big Gemini) ! I'm rather interested by this spacecraft (which become NASA workehorse in my alternate space timeline ;) )
About the Bae capsule I'm totally unable to draw something correctly (regrets...)

After 1997 and Ariane 5 early successes things were clear for ESA, Ariane 4 was for GTO transfers, but now two satellites had to be carried. So a 5 / 6 tons ton payload for GTO was too low. End of the game... (manned spacecraft has never been considered for Ariane 4)

Btw have you ever considering creating a website, or at least opening a thread on the CGI section of this board ?
 

Michel Van

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Thanks for the Excalibur picture, flateric

has some one picture of
the internal layout of BAe Multirole Capsule ?
 

Archibald

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(I remember that Marcus Lindroos website had some more, not so much anyway, infos...too bad that the site in no more online....),

Bloody Wikipedia still mention the link... (I put it here even if dead, you never know maybe it will resurrect one day thanks to Internet Archive...)
http://web.abo.fi/~mlindroo/Station/Slides/sld072.htm
 

flateric

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I *had* whole Marcus site downloaded ... it was on that HDD that went to daisies...dddamn...still trying to remember what was lost...and every new discovery makes me feel worse...
 

Archibald

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The only part of the site I downloaded five years ago was... "Introduction to future launch vehicle plans".

Mind you, it's the only part salvaged by the "Internet Archive" :mad:
 

Archibald

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Found the whole site again.

No more pics on the Multirole capsule.

BUT

The Viking ACRV of 1993 - 1995 is shown
http://web.archive.org/web/20010711004153/www.abo.fi/~mlindroo/Station/Slides/sld091.htm
So Archippepe, up for a Viking 3-view ?
 

Archibald

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archipeppe said:
Archibald said:
Archipeppe considering your gorgeous renderings of spacecrafts, are you up for a Bae Multirole Capsule 3-view ?

Sure!!

I need only some more reference pictures and/or drawings, the only I have is that one enclosed in the first post (I remember that Marcus Lindroos website had some more, not so much anyway, infos...too bad that the site in no more online....), and it is too little to start a "realistic" drawing.

Hello Archipeppe!

Ok, this is NOT the Bae Multirole capsule of 1987. this is the ESA Viking.
But at least this one has a nice cutaway!
http://www.friends-partners.org/partners/mwade/graphics/a/acrv693.jpg

With such picture, do you feel up for a 3-view ? (please...) :)
 

archipeppe

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Dear Archibald,

the drawing seems sufficient enough to realize a 3 views.

The bad news is that you have to wait (a little) because currently I'm very busy with other works.
The good news is that I'm BUSY with the BiG Gemini drawings that I've almost finished, and I'm confident to deliver an entire presentation, about this matter, in the next week.

So wait just a little.... ;)
 

Archibald

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lol, sorry for the heavy insistance.

Now I'm Teased!

What variant of Big G do you plan ? the Titan or Saturn INT-20 ?

Cheers!
 

archipeppe

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Archibald said:
lol, sorry for the heavy insistance.

Now I'm Teased!

What variant of Big G do you plan ? the Titan or Saturn INT-20 ?

Cheers!

Both of them.... ;)

P.S. Don't worry no tease at all! It's only that, usually, I have a sort of list of "things to come" and I've only to add your request.
 

Archibald

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I'm a die-hard fan of Big Gemini for some months now.

Don't know if you ever heard of the "alternate history board" ? I'm posting lot of alt-history scenarios there, mainly about space.
Big G has an important role in many of these scenarios... as the ESA capsules!
 

archipeppe

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Archibald said:
I'm a die-hard fan of Big Gemini for some months now.

Don't know if you ever heard of the "alternate history board" ? I'm posting lot of alt-history scenarios there, mainly about space.
Big G has an important role in many of these scenarios... as the ESA capsules!

Absolutely!!
I know the board and I also know that the good Michel Van is active as well....
Personally I judge the Big G one of the best occasion lost by NASA all over his history.
Undoubtely it could be still in service, if in far 1969 Nixon decided to go on with Big G (both USAF and NASA versions) instead, or in parallel, with Space Shuttle.

Imagine a post-ASTP scenario in which a Big G docks with Salyut 6 or 7 space stations, amazing...no???

Now I must come back to my drawing I'm ending my work on "Big Gemini Landing Profile" right now... ;)
 

Archibald

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Yup. Big G / Skylab B / TKS docked togethers... drop me a mail if you're interested...
 

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Has anyone seen what the expected turn around time would have been between missions for this?
 

Archibald

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The Multi-role capsule is in fact tied to the HOTOL / Skylon effort, more exactly to Mark Hempsell. There was a first round of studies in 1988-90, then the concept did a comeback around 2006.
 

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From Ron Millers "The Dream Machines".
 

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Barrington Bond

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Came across this in an article on CAD in the aerospace industry - I think it is the Multirole Capsule?!

Regards,
Barry Hinchliffe
 

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Michel Van

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fantastic find Barrington Bond !

It look like Multirole Capsule, if that RCS thruster jut out at docking ring.
 

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