AX Contenders (alternatives to the Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt II)

TinWing

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
896
Reaction score
117
Stargazer2006 said:
Wasn't AX an Air Force specification? Why would LTV's contender be labeled "Navy", then? Unless it was a prior design that they had initially submitted for a Navy competition and didn't bother to modify the model, maybe?

You really have to look back to the Vietnam era to understand the AX requirement. Some would argue that the eventual A-10 was the direct replacement for the Skyraider. Obviously, the mission changed with the drawdown and end of the Vietnam war, but at the time the requirement was conceived, there might have been a very real possibility of a Navy purchase.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
Wonder if these Vought studies fit for AX too?

The first design has several similarities to the jet design.
 

Attachments

  • SecoyTwinTurbopropNo2.jpg
    SecoyTwinTurbopropNo2.jpg
    48.5 KB · Views: 283
  • SecoyTwinTurbopropNo17-16-69.jpg
    SecoyTwinTurbopropNo17-16-69.jpg
    30.5 KB · Views: 303

fightingirish

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
2,550
Reaction score
1,249

Attachments

  • A-10_early_concept_2_SDASM_archives.jpg
    A-10_early_concept_2_SDASM_archives.jpg
    94 KB · Views: 973
  • A-10_early_concept_1_SDASM_archives.jpg
    A-10_early_concept_1_SDASM_archives.jpg
    60.1 KB · Views: 3,939

Sundog

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
2,947
Reaction score
509
Also, the first picture should be rotated 90 degrees clockwise. At least I assume it was painted with the intent of the roofs of the buildings to be toward the top of the picture and not the side. Also, any idea on the Manufacturer of the two designs? The second sort of reminds me of the early ADDAX design, but of course, IIRC, the AX predates the ADDAX designs.
 

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,715
Reaction score
1,047
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com

Attachments

  • republic361A-10AXdwginflight.jpg
    republic361A-10AXdwginflight.jpg
    92 KB · Views: 337
  • republic360A-10cross-section.jpg
    republic360A-10cross-section.jpg
    56 KB · Views: 326
  • republic354AXdwg.jpg
    republic354AXdwg.jpg
    54.3 KB · Views: 352
  • republic359A-10Warthogdwginactionta.jpg
    republic359A-10Warthogdwginactionta.jpg
    78.9 KB · Views: 861
  • republic351fairchildAXdwgincombat.jpg
    republic351fairchildAXdwgincombat.jpg
    169.4 KB · Views: 830

Triton

Donald McKelvy
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
9,715
Reaction score
1,047
Website
deeptowild.blogspot.com

Attachments

  • republic358A-10AXengineerswithmodel.jpg
    republic358A-10AXengineerswithmodel.jpg
    83.8 KB · Views: 148
  • republic357AXviewofconnectionstomod.jpg
    republic357AXviewofconnectionstomod.jpg
    78.8 KB · Views: 133
  • republic356AXengineerswithmodelinwi.jpg
    republic356AXengineerswithmodelinwi.jpg
    112.9 KB · Views: 155
  • republic355AXviewofwindtunnelmodel.jpg
    republic355AXviewofwindtunnelmodel.jpg
    52.3 KB · Views: 128
  • republic352AXmodelinwindtunnel.jpg
    republic352AXmodelinwindtunnel.jpg
    76.2 KB · Views: 125

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
1967 General Dynamics (Convair) AX model tested in NASA 7 X 10-Foot High Speed Tunnel.

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/mw/images/7/75/1967_Ray_%26_Phillips_Close_Air_Support_%28A-X%29_Airplane_Model.pdf
 

Attachments

  • GeneralDynamicsAX_1.jpg
    GeneralDynamicsAX_1.jpg
    70.8 KB · Views: 150
  • GeneralDynamicsAX_2.jpg
    GeneralDynamicsAX_2.jpg
    71.8 KB · Views: 150
  • GeneralDynamicsAX_3.jpg
    GeneralDynamicsAX_3.jpg
    90.3 KB · Views: 201
  • GeneralDynamicsAX_4.jpg
    GeneralDynamicsAX_4.jpg
    63.3 KB · Views: 184

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
1967 McDonnell-Douglas AX model tested in NASA 7 X 10-Foot High Speed Tunnel.

http://crgis.ndc.nasa.gov/mw/images/0/0a/1967_Lockwood_%26Philllips_Close_Air_Support_%28A-X%29_Airplane_Model.pdf

[Photos removed - better versions below - Admin]
 

Attachments

  • McDonnellDouglasAX_6.jpg
    McDonnellDouglasAX_6.jpg
    97.7 KB · Views: 161
  • McDonnellDouglasAX_5.jpg
    McDonnellDouglasAX_5.jpg
    104.6 KB · Views: 207
  • McDonnellDouglasAX_4.jpg
    McDonnellDouglasAX_4.jpg
    429.2 KB · Views: 282

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,154
Reaction score
688
Wow Overscan - great find! Great pics and drawings
You have been a busy man!!

Thanks heaps

Regards
Pioneer
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
This appears to be Grumman's design, albeit without the triple vertical fins.

Subsonic wind tunnel investigation of an unpowered twin-turboprop airplane model with a wing aspect ratio of 6.0

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730062792_1973062792.pdf
 

Attachments

  • Grumman AX 1.jpg
    Grumman AX 1.jpg
    114.1 KB · Views: 273
  • Grumman AX 2.jpg
    Grumman AX 2.jpg
    91.5 KB · Views: 265
  • Grumman AX 3.jpg
    Grumman AX 3.jpg
    108.8 KB · Views: 246

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
McDonnell-Douglas AX, better photos.

Wind tunnel investigation of an unpowered subsonic twin-engine attack airplane model having an unswept wing of aspect ratio 5.0

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730062795_1973062795.pdf
 

Attachments

  • McDonnell-Douglas AX 1.jpg
    McDonnell-Douglas AX 1.jpg
    90.1 KB · Views: 992
  • McDonnell-Douglas AX 2.jpg
    McDonnell-Douglas AX 2.jpg
    78.8 KB · Views: 965
  • McDonnell-Douglas AX 3.jpg
    McDonnell-Douglas AX 3.jpg
    89.6 KB · Views: 958

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
fightingirish said:
Early Fairchild A-10A concepts
Source: San Diego Air and Space Museum Archive

Edit: The first picture "A-10_early_concept_1" was rotated 90 degrees clockwise and lightened up.

Reading American Secret Projects: Bombers, Attack and Anti-Submarine Aircraft it struck me that this design seems to be the General Dynamics (Convair San Diego) Model 70 AX.

index.php

index.php
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
overscan said:
This appears to be Grumman's design, albeit without the triple vertical fins.

Subsonic wind tunnel investigation of an unpowered twin-turboprop airplane model with a wing aspect ratio of 6.0

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19730062792_1973062792.pdf

Thanks to Tony Buttler's new American Secret Projects book, I can identify this wind tunnel model as the Grumman Model 450-8.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
Mark Nankivil said:
Greetings All -

Last week's visit to the Vought Archives was enjoyable and I managed to scan and copy a number of drawings and photograph a few of the display models in their possession. One of Vought's AX proposals/concepts was the L12-CAS-AX-186 which reminds of an A-4 (sort of) with over wing engine nacelles. Attached is a drawing of the aircraft and I'll post some photos of the model in their collection later. I'm still trying to work out the V# for this design.

Enjoy the Day! Mark

Some similarities to the V-502-11 jet AX design depicted in American Secret Projects :Bombers, but this study seems aimed at higher speed.
 

Barrington Bond

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
938
Reaction score
182
From AW&ST 1 December 1969.

[Removed - see better copy of image later in thread - Admin]
 

Attachments

  • GrummanAXCaption.jpg
    GrummanAXCaption.jpg
    25.6 KB · Views: 154

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
From RyanCrierie's Flickr Photostream.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63014123@N02/with/5751536547/

The first is a beautiful copy of the previously known image of the Grumman D450 AX design. The second drawing seems to be the same design but drawn in a very different style. Scaled down to suit forum - 600dpi originals on Flickr.
 

Attachments

  • Grumman_AX_2.jpg
    Grumman_AX_2.jpg
    264.4 KB · Views: 512
  • Grumman_AX_1.jpg
    Grumman_AX_1.jpg
    248.6 KB · Views: 432

Nico

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
266
Reaction score
38
Hi fellows,
reviewing some of the fascinatin posts about the AX/A-10 development, I saw some pictures of the engineers that worked with the programme. In some my old notes I found that at the time the chief engineer at Fairchild-Republic was an Eng. J. Williamson (John, Jonathan, James or?) and a quotation for an unknown issue of 'Aviation Week' telling that the project engineer for A-10 was an Eng. Tizio (yes, I know that in Italian parlance a tizio is something Mr. Idontknowhim, but the article on Av Week referred really to and Engineer Tizio).
Anyone can tell something more about the design staff of the A-10 (and, hopefully, the manufacturer's designation of the aircraft and of the A-9? Sorry, I didnt checked the 'Designations' page, but if I close this message I lost totally it and I have to rewrite again...).


Nico
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
According to Gunston's "Attack Aircraft of the West" Robert Sanator was the lead AX engineer.
 

Nico

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
266
Reaction score
38
Thank you Overscan,
I often forget the book of Bill the Great (my home is too small to contain in an ordinate mode all the books I have).
Yes, Tizio is Vincent Tizio, quoted in an article published on Aviation Week probably in early seventies of the last century. Unfortunately, some years ago I decided to destroy all my AWST collection (I was a reader of the magazine since 1967 and only now I have to stop the subscription due to a combination of lack of space and economy).
Nico
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,154
Reaction score
688
Nico said:
Thank you Overscan,
I often forget the book of Bill the Great (my home is too small to contain in an ordinate mode all the books I have).
Yes, Tizio is Vincent Tizio, quoted in an article published on Aviation Week probably in early seventies of the last century. Unfortunately, some years ago I decided to destroy all my AWST collection (I was a reader of the magazine since 1967 and only now I have to stop the subscription due to a combination of lack of space and economy).
Nico

"destroy"
:'(


"I have to stop the subscription due to a combination of lack of space and economy"
I hear and feel your pain brother :(

Regards
Pioneer
 

Nico

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
266
Reaction score
38
Hi,
researching the ever fascinating and never-ending story of the search of a light attack aircraft for US armed forces, I found the reproduction of two advertising appeared on 'Aviation Week' (unfortunately no date): at the time I dismissed the impressions appearing on the Avco Lycoming ads as fictional but now I think that the unknown artist depicted al least some real contending proposal. In the upper part we can see the Grumman design, and perhaps the middle drawing on the LTC4B-12 ad is the Boeing Verol project. Instead I'm unable to identify the twin turbofan projects and the twin-boom twin turboprop is absoluely new to me and could be fictional.
Nico
 

Attachments

  • Lycoming ad_1.jpg
    Lycoming ad_1.jpg
    186.1 KB · Views: 2,073
  • Lycoming ad_2.jpg
    Lycoming ad_2.jpg
    159.7 KB · Views: 2,027

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
860
Sweet serendipity!! Thanks for sharing. I've enhanced all the above and tried to identify them, but it's not easy. The third one has something very Northrop-ish about it but doesn't look like the three Northrop-related AX designs I have. The fourth one looks like it could be an alternate version of the first one.
 

Attachments

  • AX_set.gif
    AX_set.gif
    144.2 KB · Views: 2,079

Nico

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
266
Reaction score
38
fightingirish said:
Early Fairchild A-10A concepts
Source: San Diego Air and Space Museum Archive

Edit: The first picture "A-10_early_concept_1" was rotated 90 degrees clockwise and lightened up.


Hi fightingirish, casually, I found this brochure of the Vought MGM-52A Lance missile (I suppose dating back to 1971 circa). Don't you think that the artist could be the same for the two impressions (early Fairchild-Republic A-10 and Lance) or simply the two artist follows the fashion of the moment? Unfortunately the Lance artwork is unsigned and we can't say if the same artist worked for the two firms or simply we have two artist of the same school
Nico
 

Attachments

  • Same artist?.jpg
    Same artist?.jpg
    97.2 KB · Views: 1,720

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
860
This style of artwork was pretty popular in the latter part of the 1960s and the early 1970s. It was found all over in advertising.
 

Grey Havoc

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
16,999
Reaction score
6,636
Found via the French version of Wikipedia:

GAU-8_meets_VW_Type_1.jpg

"General Electric GAU-8/A displayed next to a Volkswagen Beetle for size comparison". [IMAGE CREDIT: USAF/ Wikimedia Commons]
 

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
860
I have attempted to rework and enhance the profile a bit:
 

Attachments

  • enhanced.jpg
    enhanced.jpg
    55.3 KB · Views: 559

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
Supposedly the AX design was based on earlier tilt-wing work e.g. the Model 147 proposed to AAFSS (AH-56 Cheyenne requirement). It was not tilt-wing however.
 

Pioneer

Seek out and close with the enemy
Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,154
Reaction score
688
Please excuse my ignorance, but is this (pictured below) a Fairchild-Republic early A-10 design study? ??? ? :eek:

And the Fairchild-Hiller design that actually won the AX comp - the Fairchild A-10A Thunderbolt II was designated FH-129 design by Fairchild-Hiller itself??

Regards
Pioneer
 

Attachments

  • A-10_early_concept_2_SDASM_archives.jpg
    A-10_early_concept_2_SDASM_archives.jpg
    94 KB · Views: 319

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
860
overscan said:
No, its the Convair Model 70 AX design I believe.

And yet the Model 70 is always shown with pod-mounted engines under the wings. Here the engines are blended into the wing, which doesn't appear on any of the other AX pictures we have had so far...

Pioneer said:
the Fairchild A-10A Thunderbolt II was designated FH-129 design by Fairchild-Hiller itself??

I believe this is only an assumption based on the fake "FH-129" buzz number that appears on the aircraft's nose in one of Fairchild Republic's paintings.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
Stargazer2006 said:
overscan said:
No, its the Convair Model 70 AX design I believe.

And yet the Model 70 is always shown with pod-mounted engines under the wings. Here the engines are blended into the wing, which doesn't appear on any of the other AX pictures we have had so far...

Pioneer said:
the Fairchild A-10A Thunderbolt II was designated FH-129 design by Fairchild-Hiller itself??

I believe this is only an assumption based on the fake "FH-129" buzz number that appears on the aircraft's nose in one of Fairchild Republic's paintings.


"FH-100" appears on a Fairchild F-X model, giving this more credibility.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
13,684
Reaction score
7,988
Stargazer2006 said:
overscan said:
No, its the Convair Model 70 AX design I believe.

On second thought, and after browsing through the whole topic once again, I believe what we have here is the CESSNA design.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2615.msg59490.html#msg59490


I think you need a new pair of glasses, Stephane :)


Here's why I think its a version of the Convair Model 70, with the engine pods moved up slightly into the wings (see attached)

Tony's book has General Dynamics Fort Worth AX, Grumman twin turbofan Model 450-4 (eerily similar to the A-10), 2 more Lockheed AX designs, North American NA-339...
 

Attachments

  • A-10_early_concept_2_SDASM_archives_Convair.jpg
    A-10_early_concept_2_SDASM_archives_Convair.jpg
    44 KB · Views: 323

Stargazer2006

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
13,221
Reaction score
860
overscan said:
I think you need a new pair of glasses, Stephane :)
Here's why I think its a version of the Convair Model 70, with the engine pods moved up slightly into the wings (see attached)

Agreed. The aircraft's general lines and proportions all converge toward the Convair Model 70. I can't argue with that! You'll have to admit though that the engine installation is extremely different from the various images we have of that design. Hence my (false) assumption that it might have been Cessna (I realize of course that the latter's lines are different).
 
Top