Alt 60s US Navy

You have provided great information and that as always for me is the reason I start these threads.
I deliberately left the parameters vague so thstposters could bring as much data in to the thread as possible.
Please feel free to reach back into the 50s and forward into the 70s
. or even the 80s.
The projects themselves are the core. The Tarawas for exmple start life in the 60s but are not all in service for another decade.
Actual and what-if conjectures are equally welcome as long as they add to our collective knowledge of projects.
Hope that helps.
 
You have provided great information and that as always for me is the reason I start these threads.
I deliberately left the parameters vague so that posters could bring as much data in to the thread as possible.
Please feel free to reach back into the 50s and forward into the 70s
. or even the 80s.
The projects themselves are the core. The Tarawas for example start life in the 60s but are not all in service for another decade.
Actual and what-if conjectures are equally welcome as long as they add to our collective knowledge of projects.
Hope that helps.
In that case I'll work towards the USN having 826 warships & auxiliaries on 30.06.75. That was the total planned for mid-1975 in 1967. The actual total at 30.06.75 was 559 warships & auxiliaries.

See this extract from Post 38.
However, for completeness these are the projected fleets for 1975 in 1967, 1968, 1969 & 1970 and the actual fleets in 1967 & 1975 according to my sources.

Force Levels 1967 & 1975.png
 
Friedman mentions that Triton was considered for a Polaris conversion. Further mentions of the conversion are unsurprisingly brief, that second reactor really took up a lot of space!
Would anyone care to speculate on what such a conversion would look like?
 
Friedman mentions that Triton was considered for a Polaris conversion. Further mentions of the conversion are unsurprisingly brief, that second reactor really took up a lot of space!
Would anyone care to speculate on what such a conversion would look like?

As Friedman notes, the whole forward end of the sub would be replaced. It would need a whole new missile compartment, which would in turn require a new front end (minus the big air-search radar) for balance.

Basically, as early as 1958, before she was even finished, it was clear that Triton was going to be a white elephant (white whale?) and people started looking for alternative uses. There were proposals to use her as a minelayer, a fleet command ship, a national emergency command post, a Regulus SSGN, an under-ice rescue and repair ship, etc. None of these were terribly serious proposals, and they all stopped around 1960.

It is possibly significant that Admiral Rickover was initially opposed to using single-screw subs as missile subs, especially for under-ice operations. So it's conceivable that a Triton Polaris conversion was floated as a way to create a twin-screw, ice-capable SSBN, at a moment when Rickover was otherwise being cut out of the Polaris decision-making process. But even if that was the idea, Rickover was smart enough not to push for a class of Triton-style Polaris boats. It was just the wrong kind of design, being too big, too expensive, and too optimized for surfaced operations.
 
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Triton has a fascinating history.


She served as Flagship Atlantic Fleet submarines from 1964 to 1969. (would be interesting to know more) and was considered useful enough to be in reserve until 1993. She has only recently been dismantled.
 
Two failed weapons systems distort the look of the US Navy in this period.
The Typhon area defence system proved too complicated and could not be made to work even with the US resources. The UK abandoned NIGS for similar reasons.
Talos continued to provide long range air defence until the end of the 70s. It was left to the RN to use a ramjet for its CF299 .
It would be interesting to know why the US preferred the Tartar/Standard. It has certainly outlasted Seadart.
The other system was Sea Mauler. Its box launcher looked very like the Seawolf box system. Mauler in both land and sea versions proved too much for the US. The UK and Soviet Union proceeded to make their own systems work much later.
The Sea Sparrow system took over. I am not sure how much better than poor old Seacat this actually was. The missile itself was certainly a better starting point.
 
Another area where the 1960s does not turn out as planned is the US and allied Anti Submarine carrier (CVS) force.
The Essex class CVS ships are so heavily used with strike aircraft off S Vietnam that they wear out faster than planned by the 1970s.
We probably need a separate US CVS thread but the subject also fits here
 
The Typhon area defence system proved too complicated and could not be made to work even with the US resources.
Would be interesting if the resources devoted to Typhon could be redirected into SCANFAR and have it cascade into Talos. Talos never went fully digital with the SPG-61 cancellation. A nuclear cruiser with SCANFAR and SPG-61 would be beastly for 1960s.
 
Link to Post 59 which is @RLBH's estimate of the forces required to lift 1.5 MAF.
Link to Post 67 which was my notes from Norman Friedman about the plans to have enough amphibious shipping to lift 2-MAF/MEF.
Link to Post 68 which was a continuation of Post 67.
Link to Post 69 which was a continuation of Post 68.​
This starts where Post 69 ended. It's about the fall of the LHA.

Chapter 12 The Bomb and Vertical Envelopment - Part 3
The following comes from pages 378 to 380.​

In in 1969 a total of 82 fast amphibious ships were completed, building, on order or planned.
  • 9 LHA - with LHA 7-9 replacing the 3 Essex class LPH in the middle of the 1970s.
  • 7 LPH - The Iwo Jima class.
  • 3 LPH - The Essex class conversions, which were to be retired in the middle of the 1970s.
  • 2 LPA - Both were converted Mariner ships.
  • 15 LPD - The 16th LPD had been cancelled.
  • 13 LSD
  • 27 LST
  • 6 LKA - 5 Charleston class and one converted Mariner ship.
Thus there would be 79 ships in the middle 1970s because the LHA were to be completed 1972-76 (according to late 1960s editions of Jane's) and as already written the last 3 LHA were intended to replace the 3 Essex class LHA.

There would also be 6 amphibious flagships, which Friedman wrote a separate chapter about and I intend to write about them in a separate post.

So far, so good, but it wasn't to last.

In 1970, however, the navy programmers were suddenly told that the LHAs were costing much more. The FY 72 program included 6 SSBN modernisations (i.e. Poseidon refits), a CVAN, 3 SSN, a DLGN, 7 Spruance class destroyers, 5 minesweepers and LHA-6. Therefore, to solve the fiscal problem, the March 1970 tentative program objectives memorandum (T-POM) for FY 72 envisaged ending LHA production at 5 ships. Op-03 agreed: the sixth ship would merely replace 3 twenty-knot LSDs already in the fleet.

Moreover, the amphibious force was in better condition than other parts of the fleet, with 34 ships building or authorized, including 2 LCC, 5 LPD, 1 LPH, 4 LSD, 18 LST and 3 LHA. The program objective memorandum (POM) for FY 71-75 envisaged retiring some relatively modern 20-kt ships: the two Mariner LPAs and 8 LSD-28s. (Paul Revere and The Mariner LPAs were transferred to the Naval Reserve Force on 01.07.75 and 01.08.75 respectively. Both were transferred to Spain in 1980.)

The 9 LHA had been needed to maintain the one-and-two-thirds MEF of lift (total 16 helicopter ships), which in turn would provide the Atlantic Feet with at least the assault echelon of one MEF force.
  • At this time the major Pacific contingency commitments were one MEF in either Northeast Asia (Korea) or in Southeast Asia at D+30 to D+35.
  • The United States had also agreed to provide the capacity for one MEF assault in NATO operations at M+30 (30 days after mobilisation), as specified in the normal NATO commitment document, DPQ (69). However, no ships were specifically assigned to NATO.
  • It was reasonable to imagine moving one MEB of lift from the Eastern Pacific to the Atlantic within the 30 days allowed by the NATO timetable.
  • In peacetime, the JCS wanted 2 amphibious ready groups (ARGs) in the Western Pacific, plus one in the Mediterranean, one in the Caribbean, and one LST assigned to Commander-in-Chief, South (CinCSouth).
The planners justified the cut to 5 LHA on the ground that there would be no need to mount an MEF-level assault in NATO. Conditions would change slowly enough for forces to be shifted from the Pacific on a semi-permanent basis. As for peacetime, each MEB in the Atlantic could support an amphibious ready group (ARG). For the Western Pacific, it would take a bit more, so the 3 MEB of the one MEF lift would support 2 rather than 3, ARGs. Thus the one-and-one-third MEF lift envisaged with 5 LHAs would support the 2 Western Pacific ARGs but only one of the Atlantic ones. There was some question, moreover, about recent draw-downs of forward NATO forces because the withdrawal of France from NATO required larger amphibious forces in the Atlantic.

Unfortunately, anything more was unaffordable.
  • To reach the approved one-and-two-thirds MEB (I think he meant MEF) would require 9 LHA;
  • to reach the earlier requirement for 2 MEF would require 13 LHA.
  • 4 LHA were cancelled on 20.01.71, leaving 5 to supplement the 7 new-construction LPH.
Friedman concluded this paragraph by writing that the decline in amphibious decks paralleled the decline in numbers of active large-deck carriers.

What he didn't mention was that the 3 Essex class LPH were paid off in 1970 instead of the middle 1970s and that the number of Newport class LST was cut from 27 to 20. However, he did write that the without sufficient amphibious carriers or helicopters, in the middle 1970s one of the Western Pacific ARGs and some Caribbean ARGs had to be surface configured (BLTs instead of MAUs). Units had no organic helicopters; they had to be cross-decked. He also wrote that the helicopter shortage was worsened by the use of some CH-53s for airborne mine countermeasures, a force eventually equivalent to 2 or 3 LHA loads.

By the time the LHAs entered service, the Marines were buying AV-8A Harriers, 6 to a MAU. They planned to deploy 6 Harriers on board the first 2 LHAs prior to their first overhauls and they also planned to deploy AH-1J Sea Cobra attack helicopters. The next paragraph says that by 1975 there was considerable interest in a VSTOL aircraft carrier, tentatively designated VSS. The LHA was not quite a VSS because her amphibious features were all quite unsuited to any such role. Even so, under a fleet modernisation plan, the ship was to have been fitted for VSS conversion, with modified magazines and provision for intermediate-level aeroplane maintenance . At 1975 the estimates was $5-8 million to refit the ship for close air support using AV-8s or $4-6 million for ASW which included fitting a carrier-type ASW centre (ASCAC). A new LHA with LHA features would cost over $770 million.

The penultimate paragraph on Page 379 says that escalating shipbuilding costs meant that the cancellation of LHA-4 and 5 was seriously considered. However, it would take all five ships to maintain the agreed one-and-one-third MEF lift. Cancelled LHAs would have been replaced with pairs of new-generation ships then under consideration, and LX to replace the LSD and an LPH(X), at estimated unit costs of $450 million and $210 million respectively. However, at this time an LHA cost about $650 million, so the price seemed quite reasonable. The fourth and fifth ships were completed.

By 1975 a new amphibious ship, the LX (an LSD replacement) was being considered and a draft FY 77 budget showed one LX plus one VSS, which according to Friedman was in effect competing with the LX because money was tight. The VSS wasn't an amphibious ship, but the Navy advertised it as a super-LPH, in order to get the Marines to support it. The Marines initially wanted the VSS to carry 1,000 to 1,200 troops. However, they reduced it to 500 troops with an air group of 7 CH-46, 4 CH-53, 3 UH-1N and 6 AH-1J. The Marines were willing to support the VSS as long as its troop capacity was not counted against the required amphibious lift. 8 VSS would complete the desired one-and-a-half MAF lift-except for boats. However, the October 1975 version of the LX, more than matched the VSS in some ways: it carried more personnel (1,029), almost as many helicopters (15 v 20) and it alone offered the same 20 LCM (6) boat spots as did the LHA.

Friedman concluded by writing that the Marines saw the VSS as anything but an amphibious ship, since it had no surface assault capability and probably would never be used for amphibious operations. It would be extremely dangerous, then, to countenance inclusion of VSS in the one-and-a-half MAF goal, since that made the VSS look like another LHA.

When LHA-5 was completed in 1980 the USN actually had 64 fast amphibious ships (not including the LCCs). That is
  • 5 LHA - They were completed 1976-80, later than planned.
  • 7 LPH
  • 13 LPD - LPD-3 became an Auxiliary Flagship (AGF-3) on 01.07.72 and LPD-11 became AGF-11 in 1980.
  • 13 LSD
  • 20 LST - 2 were transferred to the NRF in 1980-81 to replace the Mariner LPAs transferred to Spain.
  • 6 LKA - including the converted Mariner-ship Tulare, which was transferred to the NRF on 01.07.75.
If the 2 LPA hadn't been transferred to Spain and 2 LPD hadn't been converted to flagships the total would have been 68 fast amphibious ships. If LHA 6-9 and 21st to 27th fast LSTs had been built the total would have been 79. Both totals don't include the LCCs.
 
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Link to Post 59 which is @RLBH's estimate of the forces required to lift 1.5 MAF.
Link to Post 67 which was my notes from Norman Friedman about the plans to have enough amphibious shipping to lift 2-MAF/MEF.
Link to Post 68 which was a continuation of Post 67.
Link to Post 69 which was a continuation of Post 68.​
Link to Post 90 which was a continuation of Post 68 and concludes my notes from Norman Friedman about the plans to have enough amphibious shipping to left 2-MAF/MEF.
Quote from Post 90.
There would also be 6 amphibious flagships, which Friedman wrote a separate chapter about and I intend to write about them in a separate post.
This is the separate post about the 6 amphibious flagships.

Chapter 15 A New-Generation Amphibious Flagship
Pages 425 - 431

This is the opening paragraph of the chapter.
The 20-kt amphibious fleet naturally included fast flagships, initially envisaged as converted Mariner cargo ship hulls. For example, a list of projects for the FY59 program, dated 4th January 1957, included a new AGC at a cost of $53 million and $46 million for follow-on ships. However, as no 20-knot LST existed, and there were few fast AKAs and APAs, there was little point in demanding new fast AGCs. The situation changed as the number of fast amphibious ships grew and a practical 20-kt LST was designed.
The following paragraph says:
  • The minimum requirement was one AGC for each ocean, one to control division/air wing assault.
  • However, ideally one would serve the task force commander and another, the amphibious group commander.
  • In some formulations, two were needed for the amphibious force, one for the aerial assault, and one for the surface assault.
  • Thus at least four (in some formulations, six) fast AGCs were wanted.
  • During the fall of 1958 the projected long-range programme showed a new AGC each year in FYs 61, 63, 65 and 67. However, then
  • The AGC was dropped from the FY 61 Programme and by February 1962 it had been moved to FY 62.
  • The programme continued to slip, so that in the fall of 1962 the Secretary of Defence approved one new AGC each in FYs 64, 65 and 66.
  • Tentative plans called for 3 more ships in FYs 66, 67 and 68.
  • So that would have been a total of 6 FY 64 to 68 with 2 ships in FY 66 and one ship in the other Fiscal Years. Or it's a typo and the follow on ships were to be approved FY 67, 68 and 69.
The third paragraph on Page 429 says.
  • A 1966 draft presidential memorandum (DPM) on amphibious assault ships, fire support ships, and mine countermeasures led to a new study of amphibious flagship alternatives from February 1967 through April 1968.
  • For FY 70 the Secretary of Defence approved a total of 6 flagships (2 Atlantic, 2 Pacific and 2 backup): 3 new construction LCCs and 3 retained World War II AGCs that the Navy wanted to replace with new ships FY 70 to 72.
  • The third LCC was to be built under the FY 69 Programme. (The previous paragraph said that AGC/LCC-19 Blue Ridge was approved in FY 65 and AGC/LCC-20 Mount Whitney was approved in FY 66.)
  • A further DPM, deferred the planned FY 69 ship to FY 70, and rejected Navy proposals to replace the 3 old AGCs.
  • However, as of early 1969 construction of the third LCC had not yet been approved in FY 70. Funds were withheld pending a study of alternatives.
The requirement for 6 AGC (or LCC as they became on 01.01.69) in the corresponds to these quotes from Post 67.
Second paragraph on Page 370.

The full marine expeditionary force (MEF), that is the full division air/wing assault echelon, was set at 3 AGC (overall commander, vertical and over the beach), 8 LPH, 5 AKA, 13 LSD, 13 LPD, 20 LST, and 2 tankers. The follow-on force, arriving on D+5, would be about 35 MSTS or chartered ships (e.g., 4 transports, 28 cargo ships, and 3 tankers). It would have required nearly all the fast amphibious lift ships built over the next decade.
Fourth paragraph on Page 370.

At this time the navy's force goal for FY 76 [01.7.75 to 30.06.76] was two 20-kt MEF-level forces: 6 AGC, 16 LPH, 10 AKA, 26 LSD, 26 LPD, 40 LST, and 4 tankers, plus ancillary ships such as 6 APD and 2 APSS. McNamara supported both 20-kt capability and the ability to mount a full divisional attack. With limited rather than general war in view, 20 kts no longer seemed so important as protection against submarines. In a world full of crises, however, it offered valuable flexibility. a 20-kt force in the Eastern Pacific could deploy to many areas in the Atlantic about as quickly as a 13-kt force based in the Atlantic.
Most of the chapter is about the design history of what became the Blue Ridge class LCC which includes converting the Baltimore class CA Helena & Loss Angles, the De Moines class CA, Worcester class CL and the 3 surviving Independence class CVL as alternatives.

However, the paragraph that straddles Pages 429 & 430 says that in the late 1960s the Navy also wanted 6 major fleet flagships (2 for each forward-deployed numbered fleet, 2 as backup) to replace ageing cruisers and that replacing both the ageing AGCs and the cruisers would require 12 ships. One alternative was to build only 4 special-purpose LCCs plus 6 dual-purpose (amphibious and fleet) flagships and if all ships were dual-purpose, then the 4 back0ups could be eliminated and the total programme cut to 8. The next paragraph says the alternatives were:
  • $96 million LCC-19 class.
  • $106 million for a 30-knot fleet flagship
  • $124-135 million for a dual-purpose 30-knot ship.
  • Therefore, 6 LCC-19 & 6 fleet flagships would cost $1,212 million and 8 dual-purpose ships would cost $992-1,080 million, a difference of $132-220 million.
  • All costs were in FY 70 Dollars and adding a defensive armament would roughly double the cost of the fleet flagship.
However, none of the above happened and only the 2 LCC that had already been approved were built. Although as enough fast amphibious shipping was built to transport one MAF the construction of LCC-21 could have been justified.

The chapter ends by saying that 2 LPDs (LPD-03 La Salle and LPD-11 Coronado) were converted into flagships (as AGF-03 in 1972 and AGF-11 in 1980 respectively) but that unlike the Blue Ridge class they lacked NTDS and air control facilities. The last sentence was.
As of 2000, two joint flagships, sometimes styled JCC (by contrast to LCC), to replace the worn-out Blue Ridge class, are scheduled to be bought in FY 04 and FY 05; they are conceived as modified versions of the new LPD 17.
 
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Link to Post 59 which is @RLBH's estimate of the forces required to lift 1.5 MAF.
Link to Post 67 which was my notes from Norman Friedman about the plans to have enough amphibious shipping to lift 2-MAF/MEF.
Link to Post 68 which was a continuation of Post 67.
Link to Post 69 which was a continuation of Post 68.​
Link to Post 90 which was a continuation of Post 68 and concludes my notes from Norman Friedman about the plans to have enough amphibious shipping to left 2-MAF/MEF.
Link to Post 91 about the requirements for 6 amphibious flagships.
Chapter 14 Fire Support Revisited
Pages 403 - 424

This chapter was about a new class of Landing Ship Fire Support (LFS) that was proposed in the 1960s, but there isn't much about the number of ships required.

There is this paragraph on Pages 406 and 407.
  • In May 1964 the Marines produced MCDEC (Marine Cops Development Centre) project 30-64-01, "Naval Gunfire Requirements for the Long Range Period Through 1975 for a Division/Wing Team (MEF)", a study for naval gunfire support (NGS) requirements for the period through 1975.
  • The CNO and CMC (Commandant Marine Corps) convened an ad hoc working group, the Hooper Committee, on NGS.
  • At least three 8in ships would be needed to support an opposed MEF landing.
  • Without active rocket ships, there was little neutralisation of fire.
  • Four such ships would be needed in an MEF landing.
  • The committee therefore recommended commissioning two Battleships and two Heavy Cruisers while developing an LFS.
  • Four LMSF/IFS should be commissioned at once, and preparation made to activate four more on an accelerated basis.
  • The Navy decided to retain two active Heavy Cruisers in commission and to activate four rocket ships (Carronade and three LSMR), which were assigned to the Pacific Fleet.
  • The Marines wanted one Heavy Cruiser, four LFS and seven destroyers to support an MEF landing: the two MEF requirement thus equated to eight LFS.
  • LFS characteristics were not identified.
And these sentences on Page 417.
  • In January 1970 the LFS was due for briefing to Op-03 (in charge of surface warships) so that it could be entered into the long-range T-OPM for FY 72.
  • It would be included in the Five Year Defence Plan, funded in FY 72 for construction of a lead ship beginning in 1973.
  • It was expected that seven to ten LFS would be built.
 
Does anyone know when and where USS Ethan Allen (SSBN 608) had her Polaris A-2 missiles replaced with A-3s? Unfortunately, the editions of Jane's that I have access too and sites like NAVSOURCE don't say. The best I can narrow it down to is between 1972 and 1976. The other 4 boats of the class were rearmed at Charleston or Mare Island between 1972 and 1976.
 
Jane's Fighting Ships 1973-74 says all ships 'scheduled for modication'. JFS 1978-79 says all ships 'modified' - all that I could find.
 
Triton has a fascinating history.


She served as Flagship Atlantic Fleet submarines from 1964 to 1969. (would be interesting to know more) and was considered useful enough to be in reserve until 1993. She has only recently been dismantled.

Reserve Fleet here probably isn't a sign of potential utility, but uncertainty about how exactly to dispose of her. They may have been waiting for some reactor compartment components to be "cool" enough to scrap safely.
 
Does anyone know when and where USS Ethan Allen (SSBN 608) had her Polaris A-2 missiles replaced with A-3s? Unfortunately, the editions of Jane's that I have access too and sites like NAVSOURCE don't say. The best I can narrow it down to is between 1972 and 1976. The other 4 boats of the class were rearmed at Charleston or Mare Island between 1972 and 1976.
We can tighten the time window a bit:

USS John Marshall (SSBN-611) became the last submarine to give up her POLARIS A2's for POLARIS A3 capability when she went into overhaul on 1 November 1974.


So, that suggest Ethan Allen must have gone into her A3 overhaul before late 1974.

And it looks like it was funded in FY73, so the work can't really have begin until late 1973.

 
Oh, hey. One more time gating thing. This picture is definitely an A3 being launched, not an A2. Assuming the caption is correct, the refit was done by August, 1974.


caption:
Ethan Allen (SSBN-608) lets one fly on 8-9-74.
USN photo # NPC K-41154, courtesy of Scott Koen & ussnewyork.com.

1682342546038.png
 
Does anyone know when and where USS Ethan Allen (SSBN 608) had her Polaris A-2 missiles replaced with A-3s? Unfortunately, the editions of Jane's that I have access too and sites like NAVSOURCE don't say. The best I can narrow it down to is between 1972 and 1976. The other 4 boats of the class were rearmed at Charleston or Mare Island between 1972 and 1976.
We can tighten the time window a bit:
USS John Marshall (SSBN-611) became the last submarine to give up her POLARIS A2's for POLARIS A3 capability when she went into overhaul on 1 November 1974.

So, that suggest Ethan Allen must have gone into her A3 overhaul before late 1974.

And it looks like it was funded in FY73, so the work can't really have begin until late 1973.

For what it's worth the dates of the other four were:
  • SSBN 609 Sam Houston - Rearmed with Polaris A-3 at Charleston Naval Shipyard from 27/11/1972 to 01/05/1974.
  • SSBN 610 Thomas A. Edison - Rearmed with Polaris A-3 at Mare Island Navy Yard, Vallejo, C.A. from 06/08/1973 to 30/11/1974.
  • SSBN 611 John Marshall - Rearmed with Polaris A-3 at Mare Island Navy Yard, Vallejo, C.A. from 01/11/1974 to May-76.
  • SSBN 618 Thomas Jefferson - Rearmed with Polaris A-3 at Mare Island Navy Yard, Vallejo, C.A. from 01/07/1974 to 17/11/1975.
IIRC Jane's 1971-72 said Ethan Allen had Polaris A-2 & Jane's 1976-77 said she had Polaris A-3 and as far as I can remember the editions in between didn't say either way.

Although, Jane's had been saying that the whole Ethan Allen class was to be rearmed with Polaris A-3 since the 1967-68 or 1968-69 Edition.
 
Oh, hey. One more time gating thing. This picture is definitely an A3 being launched, not an A2. Assuming the caption is correct, the refit was done by August, 1974.


caption:
Ethan Allen (SSBN-608) lets one fly on 8-9-74.
USN photo # NPC K-41154, courtesy of Scott Koen & ussnewyork.com.

View attachment 698383
Thanks.

These are the opening titles of a 1970s British Children's TV series called "The Doombolt Chase" and is it me or does the torpedo transmogrify in to a Polaris A-2, Polaris A-3 and finally a Harpoon or Tomahawk?
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z_88NWmmDY

It wasn't made by the BBC, it was made by Harlech Television, one of the ITV companies.
 
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The last one is a Tomahawk for sure. I'm not sure, but the first shot may actually be a SubHarpoon canister being ejected.
 
Something else to consider is the modernization of Boston and Canberra under "SCB-003.68" which would have greatly enhanced their utility with NTDS, SPS-48, and SPG-55 allowing for full SM-1 use. Friedman also alludes that their Mk 4 launchers would accommodate the LFSW weapon: Sea Lance or Taurus for shore bombardment/strike. I wonder if ASROC could be carried in the Mk 4 as well?

lance_missile_as_naval_bombardment_weapon-jpg.672429
 
Something else to consider is the modernization of Boston and Canberra under "SCB-003.68" which would have greatly enhanced their utility with NTDS, SPS-48, and SPG-55 allowing for full SM-1 use. Friedman also alludes that their Mk 4 launchers would accommodate the LFSW weapon: Sea Lance or Taurus for shore bombardment/strike. I wonder if ASROC could be carried in the Mk 4 as well?

lance_missile_as_naval_bombardment_weapon-jpg.672429
Is "Sea Lance" the weapon that was intended to replace ASROC and I think also SUBROC?

FWIW the proposed 1960s modernisations of all the converted gun cruisers is on my "to do" list after I've finished doing the Amphibious Force and then what I want to do about the SSBN Force up to including building 10 Ohio class by the early 1980s to replace the first 15 first-generation SSBNs.

However, I'm thinking of proposing that the Albany class conversions of the Baltimore class and the Cleveland class conversions not be carried out at all and put the money towards increasing the number of Long Beach class from one-to-six. They would be used as Fast Flagships of the Numbered Fleets. See Post 91 about the Amphibious Flagships and proposals for a multi-purpose Fast Flagship for the Numbered Fleets and the Amphibious Force.
 
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Is "Sea Lance" the weapon that was intended to replace ASROC and I think also SUBROC?

To, this one was earlier (1965) and was literally an Army Lance short-range ballistic missile adapted for naval use. This was early on in the development of Lance (started 1962, not fielded until 1972).
 
The last one is a Tomahawk for sure. I'm not sure, but the first shot may actually be a Sub-Harpoon canister being ejected.
It cuts to the Polaris A-2 before the torpedo/canister leaves the torpedo tube so one can't tell whether it's a torpedo or a canister.

According to its Wikipedia entry the show was first broadcast between March and April 1978 which means that it was filmed in 1977. I didn't know hat Sub-Harpoon and the ship-launched version of Tomahawk were far enough advanced for what I presume is footage of test launches to be used by a British TV company.
 
FWIW the proposed 1960s modernization of all the converted gun cruisers is on my "to do" list
Curious to see them!
However, I'm thinking of proposing that the Albany class conversions of the Boston class and the Cleveland class conversion not be carried out at all and put the money towards increasing the number of Long Beach class from one-to-six. They would be used as Fast Flagships of the Numbered Fleets.
More Long Beach's would be good, especially if you have six Enterprise CVANs as well. The Cleveland class conversions were a necessary evil as the entire class had been laid up in reserve and the Navy desperately needed Talos and Terrier in the fleet.

If you have an unlimited budget, I would design the Albanys as Fast Flagships and maybe single ended to retain one or two 8" turret. Then take the Des Moines and convert them into the AGC/LCC role for the Marines. By the late 70s you'll be building Strike Cruisers to replace all the WWII era Cruisers and upgrading the Long Beach's with AEGIS.
 
The last one is a Tomahawk for sure. I'm not sure, but the first shot may actually be a Sub-Harpoon canister being ejected.
It cuts to the Polaris A-2 before the torpedo/canister leaves the torpedo tube so one can't tell whether it's a torpedo or a canister.

According to its Wikipedia entry the show was first broadcast between March and April 1978 which means that it was filmed in 1977. I didn't know hat Sub-Harpoon and the ship-launched version of Tomahawk were far enough advanced for what I presume is footage of test launches to be used by a British TV company.

The first Tomahawk underwater launches were in February 1976 as part of the selection process for SLCM. Sub-Harpoon was a bit later so that first object certainly could be a torpedo or something else.
 
FWIW the proposed 1960s modernization of all the converted gun cruisers is on my "to do" list
Curious to see them!
Don't hold your breath! It will be weeks before I get to that at the rate I'm going.
However, I'm thinking of proposing that the Albany class conversions of the Boston class and the Cleveland class conversion not be carried out at all and put the money towards increasing the number of Long Beach class from one-to-six. They would be used as Fast Flagships of the Numbered Fleets.
More Long Beach's would be good, especially if you have six Enterprise CVANs as well. The Cleveland class conversions were a necessary evil as the entire class had been laid up in reserve and the Navy desperately needed Talos and Terrier in the fleet.
I am going to have 6 Enterprise class as well and each will have 2 Terrier systems.

In Post 79 I did the New Construction Programme at September 1956 which included 3 Long Beach class and 12 Gun Cruiser Conversions to Guided Missile Cruisers which resulted in Long Beach, the 6 Cleveland class CLG and the 3 Albany class.

As this is a "money no object" and "on time and at cost" thread I was going to have all 101 fossil-fuelled Guided Missile Ships in the Programme built as Frigates (including 12 that would be nuclear powered) and increase the number of CGNs from 3 to 6 but cut out the cruiser conversions. When ALT-John F. Kennedy was completed in 1967 there would be six all-nuclear task groups consisting of 6 CVAN, 6 CGN & 12 DLGN.

Although this is unlimited budgets I thought economies of scale would come into play. E.g. in the "Real World" it was 12 nuclear reactors for Enterprise & Long Beach, but in this "version of history" there would have been 72 and there would have been 12 sets of SCANFAR radars instead of 2. As I understand it some of the problems with SCANFAR in the "Real World" was a shortage of suitably trained technicians to do the maintenance but in this "version of history" there are likely to be more because more of them were built and the rest of the problems were because (like many contemporary systems) it used vacuum tubes and the problem (in common with the the other contemporary systems) was cured when the vacuum tubes were replaced with solid-state components and in the case of the SCANFAR radars there was also a considerable reduction in topweight.
If you have an unlimited budget, I would design the Albanys as Fast Flagships and maybe single ended to retain one or two 8" turret. Then take the Des Moines and convert them into the AGC/LCC role for the Marines. By the late 70s you'll be building Strike Cruisers to replace all the WWII era Cruisers and upgrading the Long Beach's with AEGIS.
What I wanted to do was 12 Albanys instead of 6 Clevelands & 3 Albanys out of 8 CLG & 4 CAG that were planned in 1956. The Long Beach class (and possibly the Enterprise class too) will receive AEGIS.
 
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Another path not taken was the modernization of Atlanta and Juneau class cruisers into missile frigates. They ranged from a full Terrier conversion that was outright more expansive than a Leahy DLG, to something akin to a "Super FRAM" with flagship space. Perhaps there's a happy medium like the Mitscher DDG modernization with ASROC, Tartar, and DASH while also providing flag space for an ASW task force?


Atlanta to Frigate.png
 
Does anyone know when and where USS Ethan Allen (SSBN 608) had her Polaris A-2 missiles replaced with A-3s? Unfortunately, the editions of Jane's that I have access too and sites like NAVSOURCE don't say. The best I can narrow it down to is between 1972 and 1976. The other 4 boats of the class were rearmed at Charleston or Mare Island between 1972 and 1976.
We can tighten the time window a bit:
USS John Marshall (SSBN-611) became the last submarine to give up her POLARIS A2's for POLARIS A3 capability when she went into overhaul on 1 November 1974.

So, that suggest Ethan Allen must have gone into her A3 overhaul before late 1974.

And it looks like it was funded in FY73, so the work can't really have begin until late 1973.

For what it's worth the dates of the other four were:
  • SSBN 609 Sam Houston - Rearmed with Polaris A-3 at Charleston Naval Shipyard from 27/11/1972 to 01/05/1974.
  • SSBN 610 Thomas A. Edison - Rearmed with Polaris A-3 at Mare Island Navy Yard, Vallejo, C.A. from 06/08/1973 to 30/11/1974.
  • SSBN 611 John Marshall - Rearmed with Polaris A-3 at Mare Island Navy Yard, Vallejo, C.A. from 01/11/1974 to May-76.
  • SSBN 618 Thomas Jefferson - Rearmed with Polaris A-3 at Mare Island Navy Yard, Vallejo, C.A. from 01/07/1974 to 17/11/1975.
IIRC Jane's 1971-72 said Ethan Allen had Polaris A-2 & Jane's 1976-77 said she had Polaris A-3 and as far as I can remember the editions in between didn't say either way.

Although, Jane's had been saying that the whole Ethan Allen class was to be rearmed with Polaris A-3 since the 1967-68 or 1968-69 Edition.
Jane's Fighting Ships 1973-74 says all ships 'scheduled for modication'. JFS 1978-79 says all ships 'modified' - all that I could find.
Last night I looked at the copies of Jane's 1972-73 to 1975-76 on Internet Archive.
  • 1972-73 they all had Polaris A-2 and all 5 were to be refitted to fire Polaris A-3 but gave no further details.
  • 1973-74 they all had Polaris A-2 and all 5 were to be refitted to fire Polaris A-3 but gave no further details. Which is as @Arjen wrote above.
  • 1974-75 said that all 5 had been modified to fire Polaris A-3 but gave no further details.
  • 1975-76 said that all 5 had been modified to fire Polaris A-3 but gave no further details.
I didn't look at any of the later editions.
 
Does anyone know when and where USS Ethan Allen (SSBN 608) had her Polaris A-2 missiles replaced with A-3s? Unfortunately, the editions of Jane's that I have access too and sites like NAVSOURCE don't say. The best I can narrow it down to is between 1972 and 1976. The other 4 boats of the class were rearmed at Charleston or Mare Island between 1972 and 1976.
We can tighten the time window a bit:
USS John Marshall (SSBN-611) became the last submarine to give up her POLARIS A2's for POLARIS A3 capability when she went into overhaul on 1 November 1974.

So, that suggest Ethan Allen must have gone into her A3 overhaul before late 1974.

And it looks like it was funded in FY73, so the work can't really have begin until late 1973.

Oh, hey. One more time gating thing. This picture is definitely an A3 being launched, not an A2. Assuming the caption is correct, the refit was done by August, 1974.


caption:
Ethan Allen (SSBN-608) lets one fly on 8-9-74.
USN photo # NPC K-41154, courtesy of Scott Koen & ussnewyork.com.
SSBN 609 Sam Houston in that list too and she was rearmed with Polaris A-3 from 27/11/1972 to 01/05/1974.

These are the dates for the other the 4 Ethan Allen class submarines.
  • 27/11/1972 to 01/05/1974 - SSBN 609 Sam Houston at Charleston Naval Shipyard.
  • 06/08/1973 to 30/11/1974 - SSBN 610 Thomas A. Edison at Mare Island Navy Yard, Vallejo, C.A.
  • 01/11/1974 to 00/05/1976 - SSBN 611 John Marshall at Mare Island Navy Yard, Vallejo, C.A.
  • 01/07/1974 to 17/11/1975 - SSBN 618 Thomas Jefferson at Mare Island Navy Yard, Vallejo, C.A.
That's 15-18 months per ship. Therefore, Ethan Allen must have started her refit between February and May 1973 to have fired that Polaris A-3 in August 1974.
 
The American SSBNs are often referred to as "boomers" on this site and Alternatehisory.com. What does it mean and how did they acquire this nickname?
 
The American SSBNs are often referred to as "boomers" on this site and Alternatehisory.com. What does it mean and how did they acquire this nickname?

They cause really big "booms." The acronym FBM (Fleet Ballistic Missile) probably contributed, because it sort of sounds like "fa-boom" if you try to say it as a word rather than just saying the letters.

The RN refers to their SSBNs as "bombers" instead, I suspect just to be different.
 
The American SSBNs are often referred to as "boomers" on this site and Alternatehisory.com. What does it mean and how did they acquire this nickname?

They cause really big "booms." The acronym FBM (Fleet Ballistic Missile) probably contributed, because it sort of sounds like "fa-boom" if you try to say it as a word rather than just saying the letters.

The RN refers to their SSBNs as "bombers" instead, I suspect just to be different.
I've always imagined it came from 'BM', which does indeed sound a bit like 'boom' (amongst other things) if pronounced as a word, and that 'bombers' comes from them carrying a load of 'bombs' to be fired at the USSR. Pure speculation, of course.

The logical follow up is what nickname USN sailors would have given cruise missile submarines. I'd propose, based on the above, 'goomer'.
 
The logical follow up is what nickname USN sailors would have given cruise missile submarines. I'd propose, based on the above, 'goomer'.

I've never heard a nickname for the SSGNs, to be honest.
 
I'd forgotten about the four in service now, to be honest - I was thinking of the planned Regulus II boats, had they entered service.
 
I've always imagined it came from 'BM', which does indeed sound a bit like 'boom' (amongst other things)
Bowel Movement ? rather appropriate - they enter action when fecal matter hit the rotating machine...
(I'll get my coat)
 
The American SSBNs are often referred to as "boomers" on this site and Alternatehisory.com. What does it mean and how did they acquire this nickname?

They cause really big "booms." The acronym FBM (Fleet Ballistic Missile) probably contributed, because it sort of sounds like "fa-boom" if you try to say it as a word rather than just saying the letters.

The RN refers to their SSBNs as "bombers" instead, I suspect just to be different.
I've always imagined it came from 'BM', which does indeed sound a bit like 'boom' (amongst other things) if pronounced as a word, and that 'bombers' comes from them carrying a load of 'bombs' to be fired at the USSR. Pure speculation, of course.

The logical follow up is what nickname USN sailors would have given cruise missile submarines. I'd propose, based on the above, 'goomer'.

Goomer ?

 
Came across a Congressional discussion with Admiral Rickover on the proposed DDG vs DDGN and DLGN for FY67. They agreed that for just a few million dollars more the DLGN was significantly superior to a DDGN and recommended a 3 DLGN and 2 DDG buy for FY67. This became the California Class DLGN, and its conventionally powered companion was not built.


DDGN.png
 
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Playing around with some broadly-contemporary figures (which I think are from Friedman's US Amphibious Ships, but can't confirm just now), the 1958 paper seems to suggest 1.5 MAF lift. The requirement for one MAF would be:
  • 12 helicopter assault ships
  • 9 amphibious transport docks
  • 9 dock landing ships
  • 18 tank landing ships
  • 3 fast amphibious transports
  • 6 assault fire support ships
  • 5 attack cargo ships
  • 1 headquarters ship
That actually tracks with the number of NEWPORT class tank landing ship ordered: 27 were planned, but only 20 were completed. Similarly, 15 amphibious transport docks and 13 dock landing ships were completed in the 1960s and early 1970s, all corresponding broadly to 20-knot shipping for a 1.5 MAF lift capability.
I wonder how this requirement for one MAF would translate in today's ships (WASP-class LHD and SAN ANTONIO LPDs).
 
My ideal is to have 10 Ethan Allen class built (instead of 5 George Washington class and 5 Ethan Allen class) which would have larger missile tubes so they could have been rearmed with Poseidon missiles too. However, I think that could not have been done because Polaris was a crash programme and they were trying to get as many boats as possible in service as soon as possible.
Remember that Regulus and Polaris were literally a battle for survival for the USN.


I've given this some thought in the past. Looking at US intermediate-range missile actual and proposed bases could be instructive: Thor was actually deployed in the UK, with bases in Alaska, Okinawa and Spain considered. Jupiter was actually deployed in Italy and Turkey, with France considered. There's some similarity there with Polaris bases. I think the key question is - would the fifth squadron be in the Atlantic or in the Pacific?

If in the Pacific, Bremerton was the Polaris missile maintenance facility for the boats of SUBRON 15, which also used Pearl Harbor as a rear base in support of the squadron at Guam. The limited range of Polaris would probably argue against Bremerton as an operating base. My guess is that a second Pacific squadron would replicate this arrangement, with a suitable forward base somewhere. I'm assuming that Japan is out on political grounds, and because of proximity to the USSR. Cavite or Kodiak, both of which were US Naval Bases in the early 1960s, would be obvious candidates.
Adak would be another option. Many of the pacific boomers did back to back patrols out of Adak: from homeport to station, swap crews at Adak, patrol on station, swap crews at Adak again, station to homeport for refit.


You've also got a dozen SSGNs to fit in somewhere, presumably after the Polaris boats, and armed with... something. When the paper in question was published, I believe it was intended that the PERMIT class would fill this niche, with three in FY 58, one in FY 59, and seven more to follow. Realistically, they'd have been pushed out by the Polaris programme, and wouldn't be ordered until after the Polaris boats. By then - FY 64 at the earliest - Regulus is decidedly long in the tooth, and the Perseus/Tomahawk line isn't even a glint in the eye of its designers.
Very early on, the Thresher/Permit class were intended to be SSGNs and not SSNs. I believe the idea was Regulus, but I may be mistaken.

With the overwhelming success of Polaris, however, the idea for some cruise missile that you have to be on the surface in order to launch, when all the submarine Admirals were WW2 combat veterans and had ... strong opinions about being stuck on the surface for half an hour to launch all of 4 missiles, well, Regulus kinda died out really quickly. Especially when even the George Washington class had 4x more birds than the Halibut did!

Once people figured out submerged launch of missiles, though, it became a lot easier to make an SSGN. The Los Angeles class was originally planned to be SSGNs with roughly A1 sized tubes. 40" diameter or so. That missile program died of bloat, so the LAs were built as pure fast attacks, with the first flight able to carry Tomahawks in the torpedo room and second flight getting 12x21" VLS for Tomahawks.

Part of Post 54.

This fits better in an ALT-1950s US Navy, but here goes.

Sailfish & Salmon were approved in FY52, Greyback & Growler were approved in FY53 & FY55 respectively. I think they should have been built as submarines of the Tang or Darter classes. The former were approved FY47-49 and the latter in FY54. With hindsight, I also think that the 3 Barracuda class SSK (approved FY48 & 49) should have been additional boats of the Tang class and in their place 3 additional old boats converted to SSKs. That would increase the number of Tang & Darter type submarines from 7 to 14.

Halibut & Triton were approved in FY56 and so were the last pair of Skates, Skipjack & the 3 Barbels. I'd like them to be built as additional Skate class SSN (and as this appears to be a "money no object" thread) have another 3 Skipjacks built instead of the Barbels. That would increase the number of Skipjack class from 6 to 11. I'd also like 4 additional Skipjacks to be built instead of the Skates, but the only way (that I know of) to achieve that is build Albacore at least 2 years earlier and I think that's a "wank" too far.

The one-off SSKN Tulibee was approved in FY58. However, Thresher was approved in FY57 and with hindsight I think she should have been an additional Thresher which would increase that class from 14 to 15 boats.
Again, remember that Regulus was literally existential for the USN at the time. There weren't going to be carriers, because "the USAF does that" and no carrier plane of the early 1950s could drop a 10,000lb nuclear bomb.
 

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