ALR Piranha

[Kuno]

A wind tunnel modell of the ALR Piranha has survived and is on display in the "air Force Center" (Museum) in Dübendorf.

 

[ConnieTheTomcat]

more pics

I got a book on swiss fighter jets a while ago, they include some drawings as well as specs. It’s in French so I’ll translate it to the best of my abilities (my french isn’t great).

If anyone is interested, the book is called “P-16 prototypes suisses d’avions à réaction: N-20, piranha, learjet” Annoyingly, I’m on a bus right now and no site tells me the ISBN number. The book was about 70.- in the aviation museum at Payerne, CH. It goes into the development history of swiss domestic jet aircraft, som of the images you posted look familiar so I’ll see if I can find anything new this evening.

 

[Arjen]

ISBN 978-2-88268-015-5
Author - Luc Leonardi, published by Secavia
http://www.secavia.ch/catalogue/livres/p-16.html

 

[ConnieTheTomcat]

Firstly, apologies for my tardiness as to posting this. I meant to do this as soon as I got home yesterday but I was very tired.
Secondly, and more importantly, there's a whole page on specs. The specs posted in this thread of the Piranha 4 seem to conflict with what's on the book slightly, and I cannot say which one is correct.
The specifications on the book [ISBN 978-2-88268-015-5 page 203] (translated to the best of my ability) are as follows:

Type	Piranha 2D	Piranha 4	Piranha 6 (small wing)	Piranha 6 (large wing)
Engine(s)	1x Rolls royce Adour RT172-63	2x LARZAC M74-05 (this conflicts with other info I found on the web, which states M74-08, however I can't find much info on either)	1x Rolls royce RB199 Mk104	1x RR RB199 Mk104
Max thrust at sea level M=0 (kgf) This figure seems to be the engines' thrust on the test stand	4500	5000-6000	7500	7500
Wingspan (clean configuration)	6.0m	6.5m	6.5m	7.6m
Length	10.7m	10.57m	11.57m	11.57m
Height	4.12m	4.12m	4.25m	4.25m
Wing area	13.7m^2	16m^2	16m^2	22m^2
Empty weight	3,800kg	3,950kg	4,337kg	4,487kg
MTOW	8,000kg	6,200kg	not stated, however the nominal takeoff weight is stated at 6,896kg	10,500kg
Max. speed at 11,000m with 2x heat seeking missiles on the wingtips, 50% internal fuel	Mach 1.5	Mach 1.6	Mach 1.8	Mach 1.8
Max. sustained rate of turn	14deg/sec	14deg/sec	14.5deg/sec	16.5deg/sec
T/O distance with cannon, ammo, 2 heat seeking missiles, and maximum fuel load	450m	400m	360m	350m

 

[BullpupRafale]

MTOW of 4 being lower than 2D is weird when total thrust is greater and two of those turbofans are lighter.

 

[ZacYates]

Some footage of the R/C model can be seen from 7m17s in this Command Vision documentary entitled Future Combat Aircraft which aired on Discovery Wings:

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Manufacturer Figures and drawings from http://www.alr-aerospace.ch/index.php?id=piranha

​	Piranha 2​	Piranha 4​	Piranha 6​
Engine Type​	1x Adour RT172-63 with reheat​	2x Larzac M74-08 with reheat​	1x RB-199 Mk-104 with reheat​
Thrust [kN]​	2920 / 4490​	3100 / 5000​	4050 / 7300​
Length [m]​	10.7​	10.57​	11.57​
Span [m]​	6.5​	6.5​	6.5 (7.62)​
Wing Area [m2]​	16​	16​	16 (22)​
Basic Mass Empty [kg]​	3517​	3868​	4337​
Internal Fuel [kg]​	1950​	2000​	2014​
Takeoff Mass Air-Superiority [kg]​	6026​	6427​	6896​
Combat Mass Air-Superiority, 50% Internal Fuel and 2x Missiles [kg]​	6051​	5427​	5889​
Max Mach at 11km Clean​	1.55​	1.7​	1.9​
Max SEP Clean at Sea Level [m/s]​	220​	230​	320 (300)​
Max Combat Radius Air-to-Ground, Lo-Lo-Lo, 3x Mk-83 [km]​	370​	378​	386​

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

better scans of pics via http://www.alr-aerospace.ch/index.php?id=piranha

 

[kocovgoce]

I think as a concept not bad for today

If we take the conditions when you are a poor country and you do not have great resources or many of your airports have been destroyed.

 

[Bazinga]

197901 Flug Revue, personal scan

 

[Bazinga]

198610 Luchtvaartwereld, personal scan

 

[MadRat]

Folland Gnat concept only with a canard and turbofan?

 

[kocovgoce]

Folland Gnat concept only with a canard and turbofan?

it can be said that it is something like a folland gnat

 

[kocovgoce]

The Piranha is sort of like an anti-aircraft gun battery only mounted on an aircraft

Аnd can you translate the text from the old newspaper into English?

 

[kocovgoce]

From Krila 6/1978.

Slovenian language ?

 

[hesham]

From Aviation magazine 1979.

 

[Phantom Fanatic]

better scans of pics via http://www.alr-aerospace.ch/index.php?id=piranha

better scans of pics via http://www.alr-aerospace.ch/index.php?id=piranha
View attachment 670741

Are the missiles under the wings of the wind tunnel model Phoenix missiles? Also would this have been a possible load out if the aircraft had be put into service.

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

AGM-65 Maverick. Not Phoenix....

 

[Phantom Fanatic]

AGM-65 Maverick. Not Phoenix....

thanks for the clarification.

 

[Blueking]

First :fuel. I do not think there is space enough to hold "Max Fuel: 2,160kg". That means more than 3m3 internal space.
Second:CG. Engine is too backward.
Third:Nose landing gear bay make cabin floor too high，that means pedals/feet too high，so when ejection it is very dangerous.

 

[GTX]

First :fuel. I do not think there is space enough to hold "Max Fuel: 2,160kg". That means more than 3m3 internal space.
Second:CG. Engine is too backward.
Third:Nose landing gear bay make cabin floor too high，that means pedals/feet too high，so when ejection it is very dangerous.

It is a cancelled project long dead for decades so hardly worth pointing these things out.

 

[topspeed3]

How stealth was it ?

 

[riggerrob]

First :fuel. I do not think there is space enough to hold "Max Fuel: 2,160kg". That means more than 3m3 internal space.
Second:CG. Engine is too backward.
Third:Nose landing gear bay make cabin floor too high，that means pedals/feet too high，so when ejection it is very dangerous.

That risk can be reduced by issuing Pirana pilots with the "spurs" worn by CF-104 pilots. The "spurs" are connected to the ejection seat by lanyards that retract feet to the front of the seat at the start of the ejection sequence

Raising the pilots' feet improves "G" tolerance like Me.109 or F-16.

 

[Whopper]

It looks like ALR had another crack at the microfighter concept in 2016. Based on the dimensions, the ALR Janus was the spiritual successor to the Piranha, but this time, it was marketed as a cheap trainer that could also be used for air policing.

https://alr-aerospace.ch/index.php?id=janus-trainer-concept

 

[Basil]

It looks like ALR had another crack at the microfighter concept in 2016. Based on the dimensions, the ALR Janus was the spiritual successor to the Piranha, but this time, it was marketed as a cheap trainer that could also be used for air policing

See also:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...ainer-light-combat-aircraft.44269/post-710112
It comes from the same design leader who led the Piranha concept - Georges Bridel. Btw, he published an excellent booklet about swiss jet fighter development in 1975.

 

[kocovgoce]

Why didn't they make a version of the piranha with a viper 632 engine something like the MB339 or Galeb-4 only with delta wings or canard wings, to have an amal radar for detection up to 30 km and missiles with infrasound, something like the MiG-21 F-13