Boeing B-52J / B-52 Re-Engining

Air Force Signs $2 Billion Deal to Re-Engine Two B-52s for Testing​

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-2-billion-deal-re-engine-b-52s-testing/
The Air Force inked a $2 billion deal with Boeing to install new engines on two B-52 bombers and begin testing of the new eight-engine configuration.

Boeing is the prime integrator for USAF’s B-52 Commercial Engine Replacement Program in which new Rolls-Royce F130 engines will be installed in place of the legacy TF33 engines that date back to the 1960s.

“The task order progresses the B-52 CERP program by completing system integration activities after Critical Design Review and modifying and testing two B-52 aircraft with new engines and associated subsystems,” the announcement states.
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Not another Boeing mess up NMaude? I had thought that after all the previous problems that Boeing had, programs would have now been run better
 
Kiltonge said:
Is it any wonder this project is so elongated and expensive

The BR725 has been flying long-endurance, high-altitude for over 15 years, but the USAF and RR have just spent a year rig-testing a single engine to prove that. Not even in the proposed nacelle; don't let the press photos fool you, that's the next year of testing!

Incredible.
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At a billion a pop. And they're building the F-47. God help us.
 
Boeing hasn't been the same since they began closer operations with China starting in 1972. Seems their homegrown airliners are nothing but Boeing clones and the orders for Boeing are drying up. China is done infiltrating them and they need to ensure there is no national security risks. I suspect it is an ugly infestation within Boeing the way they continue to act. Everything is now about maximum billing under the time and materials contracts. It was only 50 years ago that Boeing was the premier civilian airliner and military large airframe producer.
 
MadRat said:
Boeing hasn't been the same since they began closer operations with China starting in 1972. Seems their homegrown airliners are nothing but Boeing clones and the orders for Boeing are drying up. China is done infiltrating them and they need to ensure there is no national security risks. I suspect it is an ugly infestation within Boeing the way they continue to act. Everything is now about maximum billing under the time and materials contracts. It was only 50 years ago that Boeing was the premier civilian airliner and military large airframe producer.
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Interesting idea however IMO the rot started when Boeing acquired McDonnell-Douglas in 1997 and made the supremely bad mistake of allowing the McD upper-management hijack and takeover Boeing upper-management, corrupting Boeing's corporate culture with the McDonnell Aircraft Corporation corporate-culture.
 
NMaude said:
Interesting idea however IMO the rot started when Boeing acquired McDonnell-Douglas in 1997 and made the supremely bad mistake of allowing the McD upper-management hijack and takeover Boeing upper-management, corrupting Boeing's corporate culture with the McDonnell Aircraft Corporation corporate-culture.
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Someone in management didn't think to restrict access to secret sauce and other export restricted information. Instead of fines they needed jail time. But before McD ever came aboard Boeing allowed an engineer mole to obtain and illegally give secrets away for building literally all of our top fighter programs over three decades. Maybe hiring Chinese nationals for military contracts is acceptable to Boeing's management.
 
MadRat said:
But before McD ever came aboard Boeing allowed an engineer mole to obtain and illegally give secrets away for building literally all of our top fighter programs over three decades.
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I hope that this engineer ended up spending a nice, long "Vacation" in the Big House.
 
NMaude said:
I hope that this engineer ended up spending a nice, long "Vacation" in the Big House.
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Dongfan Greg Chung died in prison during covid. In all fairness the government didn't make some of his activities, as bad as they sound, technically illegal until 1996. He started somewhere else but Boeing brought him in knowing his origins, and let him loose in their ecosystem for another decade. He was at Rockwell before Boeing. Doesn't speak highly of Boeing's vetting process.
 
Sferrin said:
Jesus. What did it cost them to go from J57s to TF33s? I'm guessing a tiny fraction of the time and cost.
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I don't have exact details but here's an outline

Early Jun 1960: B-52G 57-6471 rolled-out at Wichita with JT3D-1 engines as the YB-52H

20 July 1960: 57-6471 first flew with JT3D-1 engines

06 Mar 1961: First flight of a B-52H, at Wichita, 330klb weight, 70% power used for TO, 5,000ft of runway used

09 May 1961: Delivery of first B-52H to 379th BW, Wurtsmith AFB

26 Oct 1962: Delivery of 102nd and final B-52H to 4136th SW, Minot AFB

1962 to late 1964: Project HOT FAN modifications undertaken to address high oil consumption, turbine blade failures and inlet case cracking

So we can say four years at worst from first flight to satisfactory correction across the fleet.
 
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MadRat said:
Maybe hiring Chinese nationals for military contracts is acceptable to Boeing's management.
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I think Boeing would make themselves quite frankly liable for several lawsuits if they start to conduct racial profiling when they hire people. But the vetting process needs to be stricter, given the last 20 years.

Now though, what does this have to do with the B-52 and it's new engines?
 
Not to get crosswise with the “evil contractor” narrative, but in 95+% of military contracts, the contractor is only doing what the military requires them to do. My guess is that the military laid out testing programs to verify the entire breadth of the operating envelope in ground testing prior to committing to on plane installation/testing. That testing was probably done with multiple “on-wing” configurations to evaluate the corners of the box of the operating requirements as well. The military is very risk averse in undertaking any Programs that potentially impact personnel.
 
EmoBirb said:
I think Boeing would make themselves quite frankly liable for several lawsuits if they start to conduct racial profiling when they hire people. But the vetting process needs to be stricter, given the last 20 years.

Now though, what does this have to do with the B-52 and it's new engines?
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"Have to be a US citizen" is SOP for US military programs. Chinese nationals ain't that. Good luck with a lawsuit.
 
Calphor said:
Not to get crosswise with the “evil contractor” narrative, but in 95+% of military contracts, the contractor is only doing what the military requires them to do. My guess is that the military laid out testing programs to verify the entire breadth of the operating envelope in ground testing prior to committing to on plane installation/testing. That testing was probably done with multiple “on-wing” configurations to evaluate the corners of the box of the operating requirements as well. The military is very risk averse in undertaking any Programs that potentially impact personnel.
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And a lot of that is based on what the supplier says they can deliver. "You don't know how difficult and expensive it's going to be for us to put a new engine on that plane. It's gonna cost you dearly."
 
Calphor said:
The military is very risk averse in undertaking any Programs that potentially impact personnel.
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I understand your point, in general, but this is an engine that has had over 1 million hours of operation. It smacks of the MH-139 saga again, redundant testing that puts lives at risk as the obsolete platform staggers on.
 
Kiltonge said:
I understand your point, in general, but this is an engine that has had over 1 million hours of operation. It smacks of the MH-139 saga again, redundant testing that puts lives at risk as the obsolete platform staggers on.
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With due respect, neither you nor I have any idea of the additional requirements levied on the engine for B-52J ops.

For instance: cartridge start (if implemented)? Zero hours on current engines out of the one million stated.

EMP (if implemented) hardening of engine control and indication systems (i.e. new WRA configuration)? Zero hours out a a million.

Hours of operation in a dual engine nacelle? Engine operation during second engine stall/surge - zero out of the million flight hours cited.

And so on...
 
aim9xray said:
With due respect, neither you nor I have any idea of the additional requirements levied on the engine for B-52J ops.

For instance: cartridge start (if implemented)? Zero hours on current engines out of the one million stated.

EMP (if implemented) hardening of engine control and indication systems (i.e. new WRA configuration)? Zero hours out a a million.

Hours of operation in a dual engine nacelle? Engine operation during second engine stall/surge - zero out of the million flight hours cited.

And so on...
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True, but. . .they had to do all that when they went from the J57 to the TF33 so. . .
 
EmoBirb said:
I think Boeing would make themselves quite frankly liable for several lawsuits if they start to conduct racial profiling when they hire people. But the vetting process needs to be stricter, given the last 20 years.

Now though, what does this have to do with the B-52 and it's new engines?
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Boeing can restrict hiring foreign nationals; sevetal defense contractors limit employment to citizens. Neglecting this, racial profiling also tends to assume that the people immune from profiling are reliable. This did not work with, say, Robert Hanson or Edward Snowden.
 
1635yankee said:
Boeing can restrict hiring foreign nationals; sevetal defense contractors limit employment to citizens.
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Chung was a naturalized US citizen.

I don't think there are any national security projects that aren't limited to US nationals. You generally have to have a US security clearance of some sort, and only US citizens can get them. You can't even be a dual national -- you have to renounce any foreign citizenship, which so tricky because there are nations that won't recognize a renunciation.
 
Sferrin said:
True, but. . .they had to do all that when they went from the J57 to the TF33 so. . .
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A TF33 is a J57 with a fan stage. So the cartridge start is exactly the same. EMP hardening isn't required of a purely mechanical connection (I'm not even sure what is required for that, compared to electronic connections). And since a TF33 is a J57, I suspect that there was little work necessary for the dual engine pod.
 
aim9xray said:
With due respect, neither you nor I have any idea of the additional requirements levied on the engine for B-52J ops.

For instance: cartridge start (if implemented)? Zero hours on current engines out of the one million stated.

EMP (if implemented) hardening of engine control and indication systems (i.e. new WRA configuration)? Zero hours out a a million.

Hours of operation in a dual engine nacelle? Engine operation during second engine stall/surge - zero out of the million flight hours cited.

And so on...
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Fair points, but they haven't even started testing any of that, from what I can tell, in four years. They've managed to finish testing basic single-engine operation on a rig, and proven that two engines fit into the new nacelle.

What the program needs is... another milestone:

Next, the program will move into further system integration and dual-pod testing at Stennis, marking another milestone in the propulsion development.
 
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I wonder how long it will be before we see the first YB-52J make its' first test-flight?
 
Sandboxx has put out a short video concerning the the re-engining of the BUFF:


The B-52 may fly forever, but its 1960s-era engines certainly won’t, and that’s why it’s such a big deal that the mighty BUFF is finally getting all-new and much more efficient turbofan engines.
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Let's talk about why this will have a huge impact on the B-52's operations in the years ahead.
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