Imperial Iran supplied by Europe?

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Rule of cool

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The US avoided becoming the main supplier of Israel until 1968, despite being the major indirect supporter/financier for many years before that. The US preferred Israel buy their weapons from Europe, stepping in when the Europeans couldn't (HAWKs 1964) and wouldn't (tanks when West Germany refused 1965).

WI the US took a similar policy path with regard to Imperial Iran with their post 1965 military build up? What would Imperial Iran acquire from Europe in lieu of F5s and F4s in the late 60s and onward into the 70s? What would the US have to supply because the Europeans couldn't?
 
Well the obvious contest between a Mirage III variant and a Lightning variant.
Sweden's Draken also.

Lightning might actually swing this, considering proximity to the USSR. The more rapid climb being more crucial.

Later on AFVG would be pitched to the Shah.
Dassault Mirage F2, F3, G and twin engined VG options.
Sweden again with Vigen options.

Jaguar later on against Mirage F1. The trainer contest could be quite heated. Seeing Swedish, British, French and Italian options.

Then there's the Israeli connection.

But.......things could take a curious turn with the Shah and certain Balkan states. Since they would want customers for their independent developments less beholden to the USSR and the Shah keen to play a role for the West and his own influence.
Whether that's Ceaucescu or Tito or even both....
 
Mirage 4000 might get a fully funded development. They don't get any aircraft before the revolution, but an order is likely to be placed if the US doesn't want to sell, as france/the 4000 is the only other game in town when it comes to heavy fighters. Edit: unless of course they buy one of the previous french heavy fighters like the G8.
 
Imperial Iran bought
  • 127 F5A/B from 1965-72
  • 32 F4D from 1968-70
  • 16 F4E in 1970
  • 177 F4E from 1971
  • 181 F5E from 1971-76
  • 80 F14 from 1976 (to shoot down Mig25s, F4Ds couldn't)
  • 160 F16 letter of intent 1976
I think the F5As and early F5Es could be replaced by simple Mirage Vs, but not on a 1 for 1 basis. Similarly I think the Saudi-spec+ Lightning could replace the F4Ds, but not on a 1 for 1 basis and maybe the RF4Es as well. Later F5Es could be replaced by Mirage F1s, again not a 1 for 1 basis and the F16 Letter of Intent could be replaced by Mirage 2000s.

The big F4E and F14 orders are more difficult to substitute from European sources, there being nothing in the class of the F4E as a long-range, multi-role fighter strike aircraft or the F14/Phoenix as a Mig25 killer. Maybe the F4E fleet could be replaced in the aggregate with Lightnings, Buccaneers and Mirage F1s, but I see no alternative to the F14/Phoenix as a Mig 25 killer.
 
So the one certain 'paper' aircraft that might swing the Shah outside of AFVG is UKVG with the FMICW set.
In fact......the FMICW equipped AFVG delivers the most viable option outside the US remotely able to offer similar interception capabilities.

Could this 'foreign' customer keep the AFVG going?
 
zen said:
So the one certain 'paper' aircraft that might swing the Shah outside of AFVG is UKVG with the FMICW set.
In fact......the FMICW equipped AFVG delivers the most viable option outside the US remotely able to offer similar interception capabilities.

Could this 'foreign' customer keep the AFVG going?
Click to expand...

I was thinking along similar lines, but with the Mirage G8 rather than the UKVG. I think the timeline of events would work against this UKVG. IIUC the Soviets began Mig25 flights over Iran in the 70s and the F4Ds first delivered in 1968 were unable to intercept the Mig25s so a 1972 visit by Nixon led to an offer of F14 or F15. By this time the UKFG was well and truly a low level strike aircraft and had moprhed into the Panavia MRCA project.

The twin engine, swing-wing Mirages were a bit later and the Matra Super 530F entered service from 1979, so in theory could supplant the F14/Phoenix buy.
 
Quite a lot of Iran's naval kit was from the UK; I don't know whether the UK was getting fussy about the Shah's increasingly serious human rights abuses, that the UK's offering weren't able to meet the IIN's requirements, or the UK was caught between the Shia/Sunni issues between the west and east sides of the Persian Gulf.

In the time frame before the Shah's overthrow, we'd have to look what the French and British had on offer; neither had anything quite so potent as the F-14 or F-15, which would mean that the Shah would have to scale back his desire for the highest end.

Attack: Jaguar.

Fighter: The UK really doesn't have much going here; if they did they wouldn't be buying Phantoms. I find the Mirage F1 to be interesting, although the Shah's pockets (well, his taxpayers') pockets may be deep enough to convince Dassault to produce the Mirage 4000.

Ideally, one would also want:

Tanker/transport: A300
Tactical Transport: Transall C.160
MPA: Nimrod
AEW: Nimrod AEW (hey, the Shah's pockets are deep....)
Trainers: SF260 (which they could build domestically), Pilatus PC-7, BAe Hawk, HS.748 (also as a VIP transport),

Helicopters: Westland, Aerospatiale, and Agusta had a decent selection, although many of the first and last primarily produced US designs under license.


 
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1969-76ve04/d154

154. Telegram 7283 From the Embassy in Iran to the Department of State1 2​

Tehran, December 22, 1971, 1400Z
CINCEUR for Gen. Burchinal

Subj:​

  • Shah’s Plans for Long-term Air Force Build-up

Shah referred to his discussions with Defense Secretary Ajaird in Washington at Blair House in 1969 when Shah had first discussed his desire to eventually purchase F–15 aircraft from US. He recognized this aircraft is still in developmental stage but wanted us to know that if it is selected for large-scale production by USAF, he wants place order for three sqdns of this next generation aircraft. He hoped most earnestly that there would be no difficulties and said that a) while French had been discussing with Iranian military desirability of purchasing the proposed Mirage G–8 aircraft which will be about mach 2#31/2, and b) there had also been discussions with British-German group, which is trying to develop a next generation aircraft, he wanted F–15 as he wished to keep his air force completely US equipped. Furthermore, if he could place order at same time as we placed orders for mass production, it should help in keeping cost down. He assumed there would be no problem but did want us to know that he must have next generation aircraft and would purchase one come what may.
 
1635yankee said:
Quite a lot of Iran's naval kit was from the UK; I don't know whether the UK was getting fussy about the Shah's increasingly serious human rights abuses, that the UK's offering weren't able to meet the IIN's requirements, or the UK was caught between the Shia/Sunni issues between the west and east sides of the Persian Gulf.
Click to expand...

Iran was a huge buyer of tanks from the UK, over 700 Chieftain MBTs delivered with plans for 125 of what became Khalid and over 1,200 of what became Challengers.
 
Can the 1978 Skyflash missile be used as a counter to the Mig25, or is the basic plane just too fast/high for such a missile system?

Edit: Sweden's Viggens with sky flash failed to get Mig 25s in a no escape position, so it does likely need an F15 or F14.
 
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Rule of cool said:
Can the 1978 Skyflash missile be used as a counter to the Mig25, or is the basic plane just too fast/high for such a missile system?

Edit: Sweden's Viggens with sky flash failed to get Mig 25s in a no escape position, so it does likely need an F15 or F14.
Click to expand...
Mirage 4000 obviously...
 
The Shah wanted his air force to be equipped with US. types where possible. there is a thread already on here somewhere listing same of which this should possibly be cleaned up and merged ?
I am aware of various pitches by UK. and France for various aircraft types for the IIAF. all of which were deemed unsuitable other than the intended Sea Harrier order for the IIN. which was for the carrier purchase.
 
Rule of cool said:
WI the US took a similar policy path with regard to Imperial Iran with their post 1965 military build up?
Click to expand...
Hm. Wouldn't such build up happens as OTL? Without assured US support, Shah would likely be much more careful about opposing USSR and Soviet-aligned Arab states, and more inclined to reach compromize with democratic & socialistic opposition (rather than quelling it as OTL).
 
Undoubtably the US is a better security partner than the Europeans, and the 60s is when the Europeans dropped off the pace as broad-based suppliers of military gear. The US entered the Israeli market because France didn't have a SAM in the class of the HAWK for example.

Even prototypes that might have made it is slim pickings compared to the F4 and F14. I can't imagine the TSR2 being a big seller in Iran, although maybe the Harrier might have sold in small numbers.

Perhaps the best candidate might be the Mirage F2/F3 if it was put into production. It might have covered Iran's mid-70s purchases, but even that leaves the Mig25 threat un-addressed until very the late 70s with the Matra Super 530F missile.
 

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