Italian Nuclear Powered Ship Designs

Antonio

Antonio

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from:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2808.msg22427/topicseen.html#msg22427

nuclare submarine project named "Guglielmo Marconi", or the logistic ship named "Enrico Fermi"
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Anybody has pics and info about this designs?

Thanks in advance :)
 
Some little information about this project:
Enrico Fermi civilian/military ship: 18.000 t, lenght 174 m, 20 knots.
Guglielmo Marconi SSN: 3400 t, lenght 83 m, width 9,6 m.
Here is a link( in italian, sorry).
http://www.marina.difesa.it/Storia/storianavale/dopoguerra07.asp

Regards

Zhuravlik
 
Here is a link( in italian, sorry).
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Many thanks for the link Zhuravlik. Language is not a problem, I can read Italian :)

Regards

Antonio
 
pometablava said:
Here is a link( in italian, sorry).
Click to expand...

Many thanks for the link Zhuravlik. Language is not a problem, I can read Italian :)

Regards

Antonio
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If it is so things changes.
I can really advice you to read, if you can, the EDAI monograph about Marina Militare Italiana (MMI) realized by Ruggero Stanglini and published by EDAI in 1991.

It is a good source of information, and also some data, about these interesting projects.
I can extract you some info as follows:

"Specifiche previste: lunghezza fuori tutto 83 metri, diametro massimo scafo resistente 9,55 metri, dislocamento 2.300 tonnellate (3.400 immerso).
La propulsione doveva essere affidata ad un impianto nucleare ad acqua pressurizzata da 30 MW di potenza termica, derivato dal modello S5W della Westinghouse e studiato dal CAMEN, che alimentava due turbine (alta e bassa pressione) accoppiate ad un diruttore. La potenza massima erogata sull'unico asse con elica a 5 pale era di 15.000 cavalli, cui doveva corrispondere una velocità massima continuativa di 30 nodi."

"La carena si presentava come un solido di rivoluzione (serie 58) le cui forme erano derivate dalle esperienze effettuate dall'US Navy con il battello sperimentale Albacore, e che permetteva lo sviluppo di elevate velocità in immersione. La manovrabilità sarebbe stata assicurata da superfici di governo poppiere cruciformi (timoni orizzontali e verticali), mentre i timoni orizzontali di prora erano posizionati sulla falsatorre allo scopo di migliorare le prestazioni di sensori elettroacustici. 4 paratie stagne delimitavano il locale siluri (6 tubi da 533 su due file orizzontali da 3 con 30 armi di riserva), il compartimento destinato al controllo dell'unità e ai locali di vita (su 4 livelli), il compartimento reattore, il compartimento dell'impianto di distribuzione dell'energia elettrica e del sottostante gruppo diesel-generatore di emergenza, e, infine, il compartimento del gruppo propulsore ed i due gruppi turbo-alternatori con una potenza unitaria di 1.800 kW.

Era prevista una spesa di 30 miliardi di lire del 1959, cifra che rendeva utopistico il proseguimento del progetto, date le difficoltà di bilancio delle FFAA. Oltre a ciò mancò la disponibilità americana a fornire la necessaria assistenza tecnico-logistica. Il Marconi comunque non fu l'unico progetto relativo ad unità a propulsione nucleare, quanto piuttosto quello su cui si concentrarono maggiormente le attenzioni di detrattori e fautori di una marina militare di rango mondiale."
 
Hi pometablava

I've found an article on a local newspaper wich states that the main opponent to italian SSN was Hyman Rickover.
The plot thickens... :)

http://www.cronacheisolane.it/not_04_460.htm

Regards

Zhuravlik
 
airman said:
molto interessante - very interesting ! ;D :D
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You can really say it!!
One thing that it is not very well known, especially in Italian pop culture, is that '60s was a real "roaring period" for both Italian Navy and Air Force, with a lot of high-level technological programs and an aggressive policy to sustain it (at least for a while.... we are always Italian at the end...).
 
Hi lads

Found this small picture on:
http://pub10.bravenet.com/forum/795583276/show/951755

Regards

Zhuravlik
 

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That's a picture of Skipjack (SSN 585), but if I interpret the info posted here correctly despite my non-existant Italian language skills Marconi would have been broadly similar.
 
zhuravlik said:
D'oh :(
Sorry for this...

Regards

Zhuravlik
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Don't worry, asap I will try out to scan the image inside the book of Stanglini.
It depicts a scale model of the Marconi realized in the first '60s and exposed in a Milan Fair or something like that (currently I don't remember).
 
Ok Zhuravlik, that's the image in the book I have.

Essentially is a sort of scale model of the Marconi and far as is the only image I've ever seen related to this intriguing project.
 
Ok guys,
I'm going serious with this... ;D
I've just talked with Marina Militare "Ufficio Storico" and they told to me that extensive information about this project is not available because must pass 50 years from the end of the project.
But they also said to me that some little information should be available.
I hope so!

Regards

Zhuravlik
 
zhuravlik said:
Ok lads,

I've scanned that picture from "La Marina Militare".
As Trident said, is broadly similar.

Regards

Zhuravlik
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Nice pic! Infact, broadly similar might be an understatement, looking at the real thing :eek: It appears to be essentially a stretched Skipjack with a longer cylindrical midships hull section (which agrees well with the identical beam of 9.6m and a length of 83 vs. 76m). The sail, torpedo tube arrangement, control surfaces and propeller appear to be the same and the reactor was intended to be an American S5W as well.

So if any modeller wanted to build an obscure and exotic sub with minimum effort, this would present a unique opportunity ;)

And we're going to pass that magic 50 year mark *relatively* soon ;)
 
So if any modeller wanted to build an obscure and exotic sub with minimum effort, this would present a unique opportunity
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Well, might be...me!
R/C of course... 8)

I've found little more infos about this...and a fantastic forum:
http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=19399&hl=marconi
In the last post is stated that 2 models are known of this sub: one at Palazzo della Marina, Rome and another one at Caserma Scirè, La Spezia.
Tomorrow i'll speak with Com. Cardea, Chief of historic office of Marina Militare...We will see.
I've found also some other political background in G.Giorgerini's "Uomini sul fondo" (ISBN 88-50537-0)
but nothing really new.

Regards

Zhuravlik
 
zhuravlik said:
Ok guys,
I'm going serious with this... ;D
I've just talked with Marina Militare "Ufficio Storico" and they told to me that extensive information about this project is not available because must pass 50 years from the end of the project.
But they also said to me that some little information should be available.
I hope so!

Regards

Zhuravlik
Click to expand...

I think that 50 years are passed quite some time ago!
Can you ask again if they would provide the necessary information?
 
From Aviation Week, 8th March 1965 page 13

Italian government has attempted to buy a nuclear propulsion system from the U.S.
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Presumably the S5W mentioned up-thread but unfortunately no more details given of the request.
 

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Seems to confirm the S5W connection, though it was to be a locally modified derivative:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1197263645694218240

Two were to be built, the second an SSBN! While the latter appears to be a new piece of information, it's fairly logical and unsurprising - consider the ALFA ballistic missile (has its own thread on this forum).

EJ2I4j7W4AAedRO.jpg

EJ2I7obWwAARd2X.jpg

EJ2I59gW4AEMr3E.jpg

EJ2I8GTXkAAx6XR.jpg
 
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I recall seeing two coloured elevation drawings of the SSN. (one interval, the other external) on display at the Naval Museum in Venice. I should have some snaps of them in the files 'somewhere', cheers Joe
 
Maiwand1880 said:
Has someone kept a copy or .pdf print-out of this article, mentioned in reply #5 above:
The link is now broken. And I can read Italian, too.
Indeed, Italy was a major player in nuclear technologies in the fifties and sixties (CNRN, Felice Ippolito) but this was largely stymied by US efforts and domestic politics and opposition. Thanks in advance.
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Via the Wayback Machine:

 
zhuravlik said:
Some little information about this project:
Enrico Fermi civilian/military ship: 18.000 t, lenght 174 m, 20 knots.
Guglielmo Marconi SSN: 3400 t, lenght 83 m, width 9,6 m.
Here is a link( in italian, sorry).

Regards

Zhuravlik
Click to expand...
Via the Italian Wikipedia page on the Enrico Fermi, an archived version of the webpage linked back then:

Storia della Marina

I programmi e le unità degli anni '60
web.archive.org

On a more recent note, here's a 2017 'Bollenttino D'Archivio' (Bulletin From the Archive, a publication of the Italian Navy's Historical Office) that includes an Italian language article on the Italy Navy's Cold War nuclear efforts, or at least the ones that have been declassified (PDF pages 66 - 105).


I'll attach a copy of the PDF (9.18 MB download) to this post in case of link rot.
 

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Grey Havoc said:
On another note, Fiat, whose SEN (part of the Divisione Mare) was responsible together with CNEN for designing and manufacturing the reactor for the Fermi, had also previously worked with CNEN and Ansaldo on at least one nuclear powered ship project earlier on in the 1960s. SEN also collaborated closely with Westinghouse on both ship reactors and civilian nuclear power plants.

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This ongoing development has possibilities:
Meloni seeks to bring nuclear power back to Italy (ft.com, registration or subscription may be required)

Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni’s rightwing government is planning to reintroduce nuclear energy 35 years after Italy shut down its last atomic plant, in a bid to lower the country’s carbon emissions.

Environment and energy security minister Gilberto Pichetto Fratin told the Financial Times that Rome plans to introduce legislation to enable investments in small modular nuclear reactors which could be operational within 10 years.

Atomic power should account for at least 11 per cent of the country’s total electricity consumption by 2050, he said, as Italy seeks to reduce its reliance on imported fossil fuels.

“To have a guarantee of continuity on clean energy, we must insert a quota of nuclear energy,” the minister said.Renewable technologies such as solar and wind power “cannot provide the security that we need”, he argued, reflecting his government’s scepticism towards these technologies.

[snip]
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No please..... there is no serious policy to reintroduce civil nuclear power in Italy, let alone on military ships.
 
SMR's do pose a potential path for nuclear power to return to Italy compared to more conventional paths, though, the politics around it in Italy remain very difficult.

What with all this said, nuclear power for military uses is not actually as outlandish as one might think. Much to the surprise of... well, almost everyone watching that space, back in November 2023 SEGREDIFESA issued a mandate to NAVARM to start the admin process for the contracting of the PNRM (National Military Research Plan) 'Minerva' - for maritime uses of nuclear power on armed vessels.

The contract covers an initial phase for the study of uses of nuclear power on warships, with potential follow-on contracts for phase 2 (concept design of a nuclear powered unit as a case study) and phase 3 (comparison of such a unit with a conventionally powered one).

The research project apparently originates from a proposal from Fincantieri (primary), Cetena, Ansaldo Nucleare, Rina Services, and the University of Genoa (co-proponents). This project falls under the Submarine Program Office, and the Single Project Manager will be the Deputy Head of the Submarine Program Office.

It is worth noting that Fincantieri has been increasingly interested in nuclear power, via SMR's, as a solution for power requirements in the future - and with RINA, signed an agreement with newcleo last year to study applications of their SMRs (in particular their LFRs) to the shipping industry. That does not necessarily mean that they're pushing SMR's for military applications, though. There's just too little information about the project. Though, from what is outlined in the mandate it does seem very heavily biased to submarine use (and perhaps has played a role in the NGS being pushed out to a later horizon than was previously planned...?).
 
Phoenix_jz said:
SMR's do pose a potential path for nuclear power to return to Italy compared to more conventional paths, though, the politics around it in Italy remain very difficult.

What with all this said, nuclear power for military uses is not actually as outlandish as one might think. Much to the surprise of... well, almost everyone watching that space, back in November 2023 SEGREDIFESA issued a mandate to NAVARM to start the admin process for the contracting of the PNRM (National Military Research Plan) 'Minerva' - for maritime uses of nuclear power on armed vessels.

The contract covers an initial phase for the study of uses of nuclear power on warships, with potential follow-on contracts for phase 2 (concept design of a nuclear powered unit as a case study) and phase 3 (comparison of such a unit with a conventionally powered one).

The research project apparently originates from a proposal from Fincantieri (primary), Cetena, Ansaldo Nucleare, Rina Services, and the University of Genoa (co-proponents). This project falls under the Submarine Program Office, and the Single Project Manager will be the Deputy Head of the Submarine Program Office.

It is worth noting that Fincantieri has been increasingly interested in nuclear power, via SMR's, as a solution for power requirements in the future - and with RINA, signed an agreement with newcleo last year to study applications of their SMRs (in particular their LFRs) to the shipping industry. That does not necessarily mean that they're pushing SMR's for military applications, though. There's just too little information about the project. Though, from what is outlined in the mandate it does seem very heavily biased to submarine use (and perhaps has played a role in the NGS being pushed out to a later horizon than was previously planned...?).
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SMRs do not make sense for submarines, because each reactor needs to be shielded from neighboring reactors. That adds a lot of weight to the design that would not be required for a PWR of the same total power.

It may prove viable for a surface ship, the calculations to figure that out are well outside my paygrade or clearance. (At least the numbers to plug into the calculations are. I can do basic math just fine as long as I have been adequately caffeinated first, thank you)

SMRs work great shore-side, where you don't actually care about installation weight.
 
Archibald said:
It would be formidable if Italy could join France on PA-NG !
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It seems feasible at least.

My two cents: Italian ship design with French next generation naval fighter onboard (since the Tempest hasn't envisioned any naval version), for both navies (Marina Militare and Marine Nationale).
 
It would help France paying the ship enormous expense. PA-NG is a nuclear Kitty Hawk size carrier - by a medium power. We are no Russia nor China nor USA.
 
Scott Kenny said:
SMRs do not make sense for submarines, because each reactor needs to be shielded from neighboring reactors. That adds a lot of weight to the design that would not be required for a PWR of the same total power.
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Actually, SMRs don't make sense for submarines because the credible designs are too big. Regardless of reactor technology, some things don't scale down, and the really small SMRs get below the minimum size.

Almost no SMRs get below the ~10 MW useful power rating of an S5G or equivalent. Some get up to the hundreds of MW, which is sufficient for one to power a CVN.
 
Phoenix_jz said:
SMR's do pose a potential path for nuclear power to return to Italy compared to more conventional paths, though, the politics around it in Italy remain very difficult.

What with all this said, nuclear power for military uses is not actually as outlandish as one might think. Much to the surprise of... well, almost everyone watching that space, back in November 2023 SEGREDIFESA issued a mandate to NAVARM to start the admin process for the contracting of the PNRM (National Military Research Plan) 'Minerva' - for maritime uses of nuclear power on armed vessels.

The contract covers an initial phase for the study of uses of nuclear power on warships, with potential follow-on contracts for phase 2 (concept design of a nuclear powered unit as a case study) and phase 3 (comparison of such a unit with a conventionally powered one).

The research project apparently originates from a proposal from Fincantieri (primary), Cetena, Ansaldo Nucleare, Rina Services, and the University of Genoa (co-proponents). This project falls under the Submarine Program Office, and the Single Project Manager will be the Deputy Head of the Submarine Program Office.

It is worth noting that Fincantieri has been increasingly interested in nuclear power, via SMR's, as a solution for power requirements in the future - and with RINA, signed an agreement with newcleo last year to study applications of their SMRs (in particular their LFRs) to the shipping industry. That does not necessarily mean that they're pushing SMR's for military applications, though. There's just too little information about the project. Though, from what is outlined in the mandate it does seem very heavily biased to submarine use (and perhaps has played a role in the NGS being pushed out to a later horizon than was previously planned...?).
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SMRs are going to cost vastly more per MWh than ordinary nuclear reactors until well over a thousand were built, which won't happen.
And the cost level of ordinary nuclear powerplants is catastrophically bad compared to solar, and there's plentiful solar irradiation in Italy.

The only potential for unusual power supply in Italy is geothermal, including for low temperature process heat. Other than that solar+nighttime batteries+gas turbine powerplants for additional wintertime power are the obvious path to go.


The Italian navy is very much a Mediterranean navy. NATO can track SSNs in the Med without many nuclear-powered ships, so there's no justification for the expense of nuclear power in the Italian navy. They should build up the air/sea capability, though. NATO has too few air/sea missiles and complementing long-range anti-radar missiles in inventory.
 

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