IJN "Number 13" Class Fast Battleship

[Tzoli]

Recent findings and book translation suggests that all the No.13 designs I've previously posted and labelled the ABC Designs are actually not the preliminary designs of the No.13 class but rather variants to finish the 2nd pair of the Kii class battleships, IJN Suruga and Omi. Actual design work on the following No.13 class was not started due to the WNT, but Hiraga suggested either 4x3 41cm or 4x2 46cm weaponry, 30knots speed and armour to withstand 16" shells on around 48.000tons for the "Super" Kii class while waiting the order to start actual design work on it in 1920 .
So the construction dates would be similar to that of the Kii class vessels.

As for 20" or 51cm weapons, no evidence of actual weapon development before 1935 but the 48cm test gun suggest that that they were considering large weapons in the 1920's. Testing that gun helps with the construction with both 46 and 51cm cannons.
Note that the USN developing a 18" cannon by the time of WNT and considering a 20" cannon.
The RN already had the 18"/40 BL Mark I in service, developing the 18"/45 BL Mark II and Fisher likely ordered or asked for development of a 20"/40 cannon for a Super Furious in 1916.
France had developed and built a 45cm cannon in 1920.

 

[tom!]

Hi.

There were plans for keel laying ceremonies in late 1922 and 1923, completion was planned for 1927.

I don´t know what would have happened without the Washington Treaty talks but afaik there were no official plans for further ships, only detail studies of and thoughts about components, guns, engines etc. A few proposals for the replacement of the Kongo-Class and the early Dreadnought battleships using 16 inchers were made in 1930 but rejected.

Yours

tom!

 

[donnyjie]

Recent findings and book translation suggests that all the No.13 designs I've previously posted and labelled the ABC Designs are actually not the preliminary designs of the No.13 class but rather variants to finish the 2nd pair of the Kii class battleships, IJN Suruga and Omi. Actual design work on the following No.13 class was not started due to the WNT, but Hiraga suggested either 4x3 41cm or 4x2 46cm weaponry, 30knots speed and armour to withstand 16" shells on around 48.000tons for the "Super" Kii class while waiting the order to start actual design work on it in 1920 .
So tge construction dates would be similar to that of the Kii class vessels.

I think there's not much importance in distinguishing whether ABC designs were for Super-Kii or for No.13. It was clear that both Super-Kii and No.13 were influenced by them (also, the XYZ designs). Hiraga mentioned "the last four warships" (in "The Last 4 Battlecruisers of the 8-8 Fleet" (八々艦隊最後ノ四隻ノ巡洋戦艦ニ就テ) in the document "About the New Ship Type" (新艦型ニ就テ)), hence historians (like Fukui Shizuo) gave the name "No.13 class". Also, even Hiraga himself sometimes got confused about "the last four" and "the last six" warships, so "Super-Kii" or "No.13" may be just an issue of categorization.

 

[Tzoli]

You misunderstood. What I've stated was that the ABC designs are preliminaries for the 2nd pair of Kiis: IJN Suruga and IJN Omi. The Super Kii was a different name for the No.13 class. But indeed the ABC designs likely would had influenced the No.13 class.

 

[Scott Kenny]

When would have this class have been built? And when would the next class have been started (presumably with 20 inch guns)?

Washington Naval Treaty scuppered that. 16"/406mm or 18.1"/460mm as on Yamato would be the biggest. The 48cm test guns were not very successful, IIRC.

 

[donnyjie]

你误会了。我已经说过，ABC 设计是第二对 Kiis 的初步设计：IJN Suruga 和 IJN Omi。Super Kii 是 13 号级别的另一个名称。但事实上 ABC 的设计可能会影响 13 号级别。

Ah! I finally got it! I just regarded "Super-Kii" as the No.11 and No.12 ship. That's a confusing representation even in Japanese...

 

[Tzoli]

Ah! I finally got it! I just regarded "Super-Kii" as the No.11 and No.12 ship. That's a confusing representation even in Japanese...

Do you you use auto translate to Japanese on the forum? Because the last time I checked I've replied in english language

 

[Cjc]

Washington Naval Treaty scuppered that. 16"/406mm or 18.1"/460mm as on Yamato would be the biggest. The 48cm test guns were not very successful, IIRC.

If the number 13 class battleships are being biult in the first place then the Washington naval treaty is presumably not a thing.

 

[Scott Kenny]

If the number 13 class battleships are being biult in the first place then the Washington naval treaty is presumably not a thing.

Or the Japanese are scamming the WNT for battleships even harder than they did historically.

 

[Tzoli]

Does anybody have issues seeing the direct images of my drawings in this thread? Linked from my DA pafe?

 

[sienar]

 

[Hood]

Yeah they are not showing for me either.

 

[Tzoli]

Okay... I will look through them and fix them. Likely DA changed something on the links side.

 

[Tzoli]

Check now the direct drawing links should work now

 

[Homeless Emperor]

I read somewhere about the No.13 design "O" which was a 35 knot+ battlecruiser variant of the No.13 K design (roughly) with 6x 460mm/50 cal. guns. Was this project really considered in the 8-8 fleet program? If so, is it reasonnable to imagine Design "O" being built as the battlecruiser alternative to Design K or whatever the official No.13-class design would've been?

 

[Tzoli]

I read somewhere about the No.13 design "O" which was a 35 knot+ battlecruiser variant of the No.13 K design (roughly) with 6x 460mm/50 cal. guns. Was this project really considered in the 8-8 fleet program? If so, is it reasonnable to imagine Design "O" being built as the battlecruiser alternative to Design K or whatever the official No.13-class design would've been?

I should update this thread to be about the Modified Kii designs and not No.13.

As for the Design O, I've only seen it in one book and an artist interpretation of it being 3x2 46cm with 3 funnels or 1+Y funnels, but I've never seen a mention of it in the Hiraga archive. I'm not sure it's a real proposal at all! Even the last design, N is just barely a sketch text above the data table!

 

[airman]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvFDq0YXyPM
- i suppose No.13 class was proposed " Super Kii class" mentioned in video.

 

[lancer21]

Love these CGIs bringing never-weres to life. If the CGIs are to scale it seems Kii was much larger than South Dakota, something that i hadn't fathomed until now.

 

[Tzoli]

Love these CGIs bringing never-weres to life. If the CGIs are to scale it seems Kii was much larger than South Dakota, something that i hadn't fathomed until now.

South Dakota class:
Dimensions: 201,2 (wl) x 208,5 (oa) x 32,3 x 10,1 meters
Displacement: 43.200tons (Standard), 47.000tons (Full Load)
Engines: 60.000shp Westinghouse Turbo-Electric Drive, 4-Shafts
Range: 14.800km at 19km/h (8.000nm at 10knots)
Speed: 43km/h (23knots)
Armour: 89mm Deck, 343mm Belt
Armaments:
4x3 16"/50 Mark 2 or 3 Cannons,
12x1 6"/53 Mark 12 Casemated Guns
4x1 6"/53 Mark 12 Guns
4x1 3"/50 AA Guns
2x1 21" Underwater Torpedo Tubes
Possible to carry 2 Seaplanes

Kii class:
Dimensions: 234,8 (pp) x 250 (wl) x x 30,8 x 9,7 meters
Displacement: 42.600tons (standard), 48.500tons (full load)
Armour: 292mm Belt inclined to 12 degrees, 117mm Deck, 70mm Slopes
Engines: 131.200shp Gihon Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Range: 14.800km at 30km/h (8.000nm at 16knots)
Speed: 55km/h (29,5knots)
Armaments:
5x2 410mm/45 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Cannons,
16x1 140mm/50 Type 3 / 3rd Year Type Guns,
4x1 120mm/45 Type 10 / 10th Year Type AA Guns,
2x1 40mm/39 Type 93 AA Guns,
8x1 61cm Above Water Torpedo Tubes
Equipment allocated for Observation Balloon(s) and scout aircraft



It's good 40m longer then the Dakota

 

[HAzy]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvFDq0YXyPM
- i suppose No.13 class was proposed " Super Kii class" mentioned in video.

If I remember correctly from the video, design A to N was indeed intended to be the Modified or Super Kii for 3rd and 4th Kii (Ship No. 11 and 12), which were expected to be altered as a new class. She/He is also in the process of making a No. 13 class as well.

 

[Tzoli]

If I remember correctly from the video, design A to N was indeed intended to be the Modified or Super Kii for 3rd and 4th Kii (Ship No. 11 and 12), which were expected to be altered as a new class. She/He is also in the process of making a No. 13 class as well.

Yes, IJN Suruga and Omi. The real No.13 would be either 4x3 41cm/50 or 4x2 46cm/50 on 47-49.000tons