US Supersonic Transport (SST) Program 1960-1971

[Orionblamblam]

Pan am SST postcard here with a livery slightly different than the revel one http://www.everythingpanam.com/Postcards.html

https://www.scalemates.com/fr/kits/revell-h-263-boeing-sst-supersonic-clipper--132702

https://www.scalemates.com/fr/kits/monogram-6815-boeing-sst--1250000

FYI... Atlantis Models looks like they are going to re-release the 1/400 scale model:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KGOzi5Hino-PJycceL0M5Jl_9w613O5x/view

 

[sgeorges4]

Glad to have another variant being re released, I hope they'll do other liveries than just the boeing one.
PS: Sorry I've been absent for so long.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Glad to have another variant being re released, I hope they'll do other liveries than just the boeing one.
PS: Sorry I've been absent for so long.

As with the forthcoming Moebius 1/72 and 1/350 Orion III Space Clippers from "2001" which will come *without* Pan Am decals, often it's the decals that are the hardest thing to get nailed down, legally. Recall the story of the Pegasus 1/18 Bell X-1 that they had to go through all the decal sheets and scissor-out the "Glamorous Glennis" because Mrs. Yeager raised a legal stink over copyright.

Doubtless small decal companies, one guy with an ALPS printer, will meet the demand. Me, I'd probably build the SST in NASA or USAF colors.

 

[uk 75]

Over a number of years a nice firm in the Philippines has made me these 9" desk models designed to imitate the larger Pacmin models given to airlines by Boeing in the 1960s.
This allowed me to use liveries that could never have appeared on a Boeing SST had it entered service as planned in the 1970s. TWA for example no longer used the iconic double globe by then.

 

[MaxLegroom]

Pan am SST postcard here with a livery slightly different than the revel one http://www.everythingpanam.com/Postcards.html

https://www.scalemates.com/fr/kits/revell-h-263-boeing-sst-supersonic-clipper--132702

https://www.scalemates.com/fr/kits/monogram-6815-boeing-sst--1250000

FYI... Atlantis Models looks like they are going to re-release the 1/400 scale model:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KGOzi5Hino-PJycceL0M5Jl_9w613O5x/view

View attachment 679103

I remember having this kit with the United markings when I was in high school. There are times I wish I'd saved it and the Braniff Concorde by MPC (rebadged Airfix kit) that I found in what was called a department store on the Yorktown waterfront about the same time.

 

[sgeorges4]

Anyone know where did revell got their pan am livery? When I look for the pan livery on google, there's often slight variation, such as no "pan am" on the wing or the american flag being placed somewhare else.

one from air & cosmos here: https://cap-avenir-concorde.fr/les-...r-et-cosmos/air-cosmos-6-mai-1967#prettyPhoto
Thanks for your answers, I got the revell box in my stash, waiting for atlantis reedition (and next weekend, will try to get a BOAC concorde by airfix).

 

[publiusr]

That’s lovely.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Glad to have another variant being re released, I hope they'll do other liveries than just the boeing one.
PS: Sorry I've been absent for so long.

As with the forthcoming Moebius 1/72 and 1/350 Orion III Space Clippers from "2001" which will come *without* Pan Am decals, often it's the decals that are the hardest thing to get nailed down, legally. Recall the story of the Pegasus 1/18 Bell X-1 that they had to go through all the decal sheets and scissor-out the "Glamorous Glennis" because Mrs. Yeager raised a legal stink over copyright.

Doubtless small decal companies, one guy with an ALPS printer, will meet the demand. Me, I'd probably build the SST in NASA or USAF colors.

A lot has been said about this and the family apparently continue the tradition of demanding payment for use of those representations and facsimile's which basically does my mind a mischief.

The aircraft flown were the property of the USAAC, NASA etc and as far as I know, never owned by that pilot. So called 'copyright' is claimed rather than granted as far as I know and I have yet to see anything that guarantee's ownership of the scheme to anyone. Moneygrabbing will never go away and it seems the one who screams loudest and longest gets their way. Rather a sad indictment of the hum,an race and the species is not far behind.

 

[Cjc]

So I have a question, assuming the 2700 (or even really the l-2000) had been biult and flown, how much more range would be added if the passenger count was reduced to 150 instead of 300?

 

[MaxLegroom]

So I have a question, assuming the 2700 (or even really the l-2000) had been biult and flown, how much more range would be added if the passenger count was reduced to 150 instead of 300?

The easy answer would be to look at the range vs. payload for each aircraft, and subtract roughly 25,000 pounds from max payload. Some of these designs were payload limited on some flights. For example, look through this thread, and you'll find that North American figured that United would not be able to fly a full passenger load on the Chicago to Honolulu flight. That would be because full fuel load would be necessary and there's a trade off between fuel and payload at that point.

 

[Cjc]

So I have a question, assuming the 2700 (or even really the l-2000) had been biult and flown, how much more range would be added if the passenger count was reduced to 150 instead of 300?

The easy answer would be to look at the range vs. payload for each aircraft, and subtract roughly 25,000 pounds from max payload. Some of these designs were payload limited on some flights. For example, look through this thread, and you'll find that North American figured that United would not be able to fly a full passenger load on the Chicago to Honolulu flight. That would be because full fuel load would be necessary and there's a trade off between fuel and payload at that point.

Unfortunately I can't really find a convenient range vs pay load graph for the 2700 let alone the l-2000, so this isn't really helping. Has anyone upload a chart about this?

 

[JimK]

For the 2707-200: (Two-view provided for a reminder of the configuration.)

 

[uk 75]

I think Boeing published the planned delivery positions for the 2707 in about 1968. Flight International reported it. But their archive is no longer available

 

[MaxLegroom]

This is from Aviation Week in 1968, if I haven't posted it before, never mind if I have...

 

[hesham]

From Interavia 1959,

it's first time (for me) to notice it could reach 5 Mach ?.

 

[Richard N]

This 1/100th scale Boeing SST model is at the Erickson Aircraft Collection, 2408 NW Berg Dr, Madras OR 97741. http://www.ericksoncollection.com/

 

[uk 75]

This is from Aviation Week in 1968, if I haven't posted it before, never mind if I have...
View attachment 682652

Appreciate this very much thanks

 

[uk 75]

The delivery timetable is very precise for an aircraft that had such a troubled history.

In January 1978 the first production machine would have been delivered to Trans World.
Five aircraft a month would then have been delivered as follows:

FEBRUARY 2 Pan Am 3 TWA 4 Pan Am 5 Alitalia 6 TWA.

MARCH 7 Pan Am 8 American Airlines 9 Alitalia 10 El Al Israeli 11 TWA.

APRIL 12 Pan Am 13 American 14 El Al 15 TWA 16 Pan Am.

MAY 17 BOAC (British Airways) 18 Northwest 19 Japan Airlines (JAL) 20 American 21 Alitalia.

JUNE 22 Northwest 23 JAL 24 BOAC 25 Qantas Australia 26 TWA.

JULY 27 Pan Am 28 Qantas 29 Northwest 30 JAL 31 American.

AUGUST 32 Pan Am 33 TWA 34 Qantas 35 Air France 36 Air France.

SEPTEMBER 37 Air India 38 Braniff 39 Delta 40 American 41 BOAC.

OCTOBER 42 Air India 43 Pan Am 44 Braniff 45 Delta 46 JAL.

NOVEMBER 47 TWA 48 American 49 Qantas 50 Pan Am 51 Air France.

DECEMBER 52 TWA 53 (not listed) 54 Pan Am 55 TWA 56 Northwest 57 JAL.

1979

JANUARY 58 Pan Am 59 (not listed) 60 Qantas 61 Pan Am 62 Air France 63 Delta.

FEBRUARY 64 Pan Am 65 Pan Am 66 BOAC 67 Pan Am 68 Qantas.

MARCH 69 BOAC 70 Transamerican Leasing 71 Air France 72 Canadian Pacific (CP) 73 not listed 74 BOAC

APRIL 75 Air France 76 Aer Lingus Irish 77 Lufthansa W German 78 CP 79 Transamerican

MAY 80 Lufthansa 81 Aer Lingus 82 CP 83 not listed 84 Iberia Spenish 85 Lufthansa.

JUNE 86 KLM Dutch 87 not listed 88 Iberia 89 PIA Pakistan 90 KLM 91 Alitalia.

JULY 92 Iberia 93 PIA 94 Eastern 95 KLM 96 Alitalia.

AUGUST 97 World airways 98 United 99 Continental 100 United 101 Alitalia.

SEPTEMBER 102 Eastern 103 United 104 World 105 United 106 Continental.

OCTOBER 107 United 108 United 109 World 110 Air Canada 111 Airlift Intenational .


NOVEMBER 112 Continental 113 Continental 114 Air Canada 115 not listed 116 TWA 117 Air Canada.


DECEMBER 118 Eastern 119 Northwest 120 Air Canada 121 KLM 122 not listed 123 Air Canada.

1980


JANUARY 124 not listed 125 TWA 126 Eastern 127 Northwest 128 KLM

FEBRUARY 129 130 131 not listed 132 Eastern 133 not listed 134 KLM.


These aircraft would not have had the vivid coloured schemes of 1960s airlines but even so the lineup at Boeing would have been interesting.

 

[hesham]

From Interavia 1960.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a35007710/b-70-history/

 

[flateric]

http://robedgcumbe.com/boeing-2707-mockup/

 

[hesham]

Hi,

of course we knew and displayed it before from Flying magazine,but the
new thing is that,Douglas considered a military mission for this aircraft ?!.

 

[archipeppe]

My contribution, as usual....

 

[Orionblamblam]

Nice document from Boeing's here:
http://www.emotionreports.com/downloads/pdfs/boeing.pdf

There is surprisingly few on the -300 technically-side. Also of interest is the neat 3-views detailing the "public" evolution (no hint to the 1968 studies that led to the delta configuration), where you can find the rarely seen early-VG 2707 canard configuration.

Link dead. Archived:
https://web.archive.org/web/20060311045626/http://www.emotionreports.com/downloads/pdfs/boeing.pdf

 

[Orionblamblam]

ha ah, finally got it...
PROPOSAL FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF A COMMERCIAL SUPERSONIC TRANSPORT. VOLUME A-5. AERODYNAMIC REPORT - LOCKHEED-CALIFORNIA CO BURBANK - 15 JAN 1964

Part of the original Phase I proposal. Photo reproductions are abysmal, but line drawings are good. Some of the photos later published in Horizons magazine.
Enjoy http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD377973 Beware, big file.

Dead link. Archived: https://archive.org/details/DTIC_AD0377973

 

[uk 75]

Shea Oakley posted these images on Facebook of Pacific Miniatures twin set models of the Boeing 2707-100 in BOAC colours. They live in the British Airways collection in London.
I saw them back in the 90s at the BA Museum but had no camera.
They are identical to the Revell 1/1200 twin set but made of resin or wood rather than moulded plastic.

 

[hesham]

From Interavia 1969.

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://elpoderdelasgalaxias.wordpress.com/2022/12/23/boeing-2707-far-beyond-mach-2/

 

[canvoodoo]

New member here...

I've been reading through this series of posts, as I'm working on a presentation on the history of supersonic transports, to be made to the Toronto chapter of the Canadian Aviation Historical Society.

I'm looking for images of the Boeing SST (or Concorde) as they would have appeared in Air Canada colours. Air Canada promotional material would be ideal, if there ever was such a thing.

If anyone has anything along these lines, and could share it here, that would be marvellous.

Martin Keenan
Burlington, Ontario, Canada

 

[royabulgaf]

Apropos of the 1969 Pan Am ads, last year when I passed through Ohare Airport in Chicago USA I saw ads for one of the big legacy airlines introducing a supersonic airliner into service in 2026. Sorry I can't recall more.

 

[uk 75]

New member here...

I've been reading through this series of posts, as I'm working on a presentation on the history of supersonic transports, to be made to the Toronto chapter of the Canadian Aviation Historical Society.

I'm looking for images of the Boeing SST (or Concorde) as they would have appeared in Air Canada colours. Air Canada promotional material would be ideal, if there ever was such a thing.

If anyone has anything along these lines, and could share it here, that would be marvellous.

Martin Keenan
Burlington, Ontario, Canada

This article has what you need.
https://www.henrytenby.com/trans-ca...as-national-airline-1937-1983-by-henry-tenby/
Air Canada had a big display model of the 2707 which a chap found some years back.

https://www.diecastaircraftforum.co...i-think-rare-piece.html#/topics/116227?page=1

 

[canvoodoo]

Excellent. I'll have to contact Henry and ask where the images came from.

Much appreciated.

Martin

 

[NERVA]

My contribution, as usual....View attachment 686356

Well done. Thank you.

 

[hesham]

From Air Pictorial 1961.

 

[hesham]

Here is a hypothetical VG SST Transport aircraft of 1961.

By the way,this report is a good source to Space missiles;

https://books.googleusercontent.com...lXJEBWzV-ExVn_Rihs7ko2FictrYIivnbs8lb-wTc0pkw

 

[SCAT-15F]

Rare 1960's NASA Aerodynamics SST Model​

We recently acquired a rare 1960's aerodynamic test model for a NASA SST (Super Sonic Transport) vehicle from Langley Research Center. This model is rather large and is built of wood and composite materials. One rear fin has the NASA logo -- finish and condition is original. The piece measures 51" L and has a max width of 24". Everything is in tact with the minor exception of one rear fin. Wear has some dings and chip paint in areas. These Langley Aerodynamic models are very rare and as you can imagine and these were used in what is called the free-flight technique where they are tethered and float in the wind tunnel for study. A variety of designs were tested and this is one in the spectrum of craft. Reference the video for a demonstration of this type of craft in free flight testing. These video segments are courtesy of NASA Langley Research Center.

View attachment 669586View attachment 669587View attachment 669588
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This is the SCAT-15F: The ultimate SST, and best looking, IMO.

"…In 1964, advances in the sophistication of aerodynamic theory and computer codes at Langley allowed a team of Harry Carlson, Ed McLean, Warner Robins, Roy Harris, and Wilbur Middleton to design an improved SCAT configuration, called the SCAT-15F. This fixed-wing version of the earlier variable-sweep SCAT-15 configuration was designed using the latest, computer-based supersonic design methodology that Langley had developed, resulting in a L/D ratio of 9.3 at Mach 2.6, an amazing 25 to 30 percent better than the previous state of the art at that time. The new Langley theories permitted the researchers to shape the wing with reflex, twist, camber, and other parameters that nearly optimized its supersonic capability. When informed by the design team of the SCAT-15F’s projected performance, Larry Loftin (Langley’s top manager for aeronautics) did not believe the prediction. Subsequent wind tunnel results, however, proved the estimates accurate and the SCAT-15F remains to this day one of the most aerodynamically efficient SST designs ever conceived. Carlson, McLean, Robins, Harris, and Middleton were awarded a patent for the SCAT-15F design in 1967." -NASA archives

 

[flateric]

https://declassification.blogs.archives.gov/2017/07/28/what-happened-to-the-american-sst/

 

[aim9xray]

What the ...?
Blog dated July 28 2017?

 

[sgeorges4]

Hello, it's been a while. I wonder if I can't use a concorde fuselage as a basis for a model of one of those project (a early lockeed one per exmaple). Here's how lindbergh presented the civilian XB70:
https://www.scalemates.com/fr/kits/usairfix-60525-concorde--492980Thanks or your answers!

 

[Scott Kenny]

So I have a question, assuming the 2700 (or even really the l-2000) had been biult and flown, how much more range would be added if the passenger count was reduced to 150 instead of 300?

Assume each passenger is worth 200lbs of fuel (175lb FAA standard passenger, plus at least 25lbs for a seat), times 150 pax, gives 30,000lbs of additional fuel. Do you have fuel capacity stats for those planes?

Edit: now that I have a fuel capacity spec for the 2707-300 of 475klbs, that's looking like only a 6-7% increase in fuel load/range (passenger planes rarely ever take off at max fuel, as they'd rather load for planned trip plus required reserves). So, half the passengers to fly 6% farther? Unlikely to be worth it, unless you can get those passengers to pay Business Class prices for seats.

Nice document from Boeing's here:
http://www.emotionreports.com/downloads/pdfs/boeing.pdf

There is surprisingly few on the -300 technically-side. Also of interest is the neat 3-views detailing the "public" evolution (no hint to the 1968 studies that led to the delta configuration), where you can find the rarely seen early-VG 2707 canard configuration.

Link is dead, is there a place I can get that?

Air Force One based on a B-58....

I mean, there's arguments for making your Presidential transport a National Prestige project, but I can't see that happening with a VB-58, too short ranged and not enough passenger capacity for support staff. Plus, it doesn't do the boss any good to arrive before the ground transportation does.