Saab Gripen E/F (Gripen NG)

[helmutkohl]

I believe Sweden is also offering some kind of joint Gripen Air Force operations with Finland as part of the package.
if it were me, I'd lean towards Saab
the next two choices would be the F-35 and then the Shornet/Growler

 

[Archibald]

the-gust-would-be-in-a-good-position-in-Switzerland/

(facepalm)

 

[TomcatViP]

This same article (seen first in LeMatin.ch) was copy pasted around a certain press nearly identically from one house to the other.
This is not a news, given that it has even the same error (quoting Rafale combat range at 3700km...) but a pamphlet. In Le Matin, a well known Swiss newspaper, Mr Felley, the journalist authoring this strange piece, doesn't even bother knowing why a member of the Swiss parliament would quote a fantasied range value for a plane that has no serious ground (a 2 second search on Google will lead any intrepid journalist toward Wikipedia that give this value as being the Ferry Range) without anyone correcting her afterward...
It's like going in a Genève watchmaker shop and being told that the last model can do donuts and coffee. Talk about a press news...

Oh yes, the Rafale can allegedly cross 3700km but the only thing it will deliver there would be itself with empty tanks, an half chomped Jambon-beurre and a pilot with a full bladder...

 

[Basil1891]

the-gust-would-be-in-a-good-position-in-Switzerland/

(facepalm)

hmm, You are aware it's machine translation, do you?

This same article (seen first in LeMatin.ch) was copy pasted around a certain press nearly identically from one house to the other.

I only mentioned it because it's the only source avail about possible number of Rafales (56x) in the Dassault offer to Finland.

 

[Archibald]

Y felley betises et il en dit aussi...

 

[Archibald]

the-gust-would-be-in-a-good-position-in-Switzerland/

(facepalm)

hmm, You are aware it's machine translation, do you?

This same article (seen first in LeMatin.ch) was copy pasted around a certain press nearly identically from one house to the other.

I only mentioned it because it's the only source avail about possible number of Rafales (56x) in the Dassault offer to Finland.

Doesn't change the fact it is a very idiotic translation mistake of Rafale...

 

[isayyo2]

Good news!

The Gripen E fighter program will have a busy 2022. Saab is preparing to handle the first deliveries of series production aircraft to its two customers, Sweden and Brazil.

According to the company, there are currently nine jets flying, a number that will be expanded by the end of this year. Four of these Gripens will be sent to the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) in early 2022, as part of the order for 36 units closed years ago.

The Swedish Air Force will also receive the first Gripen E next year. The country has ordered 60 fighters in all, which will equip three wings in the future.

Saab also revealed that around 30 fighters are already at some stage of assembly, which represents a third of the backlog. The two-seat Gripen F variant is still being developed and will have an assembly line in Brazil.

https://www.airway1.com/saab-about-to-start-gripen-e-deliveries-to-brazil-and-sweden/

 

[helmutkohl]

^ awesome.. although slightly disappointed its going to keep the standard two tone grey camo.
are the Swedes going to stick with the new darker one that they had on their first demo?

and on another note..
anyone in favor of merging the Legacy Gripen and this Gripen E/F threads together?
I ask this becase the Legacy Gripen thread is tiny (just 1 page), and most Gripen related news will be on the E/F version anyways as the legacy version is no longer produced.

 

[isayyo2]

anyone in favor of merging the Legacy Gripen and this Gripen E/F threads together?
I ask this because the Legacy Gripen thread is tiny (just 1 page), and most Gripen related news will be on the E/F version anyways as the legacy version is no longer produced.

If it can be spliced together into a proper "Gripen News" thread I'd be all fore it

 

[Foo Fighter]

I would be interested to see how on earth Mexico could get enough money to acquire F-35's.

 

[tequilashooter]

Wonder what purpose Brazil has anyways for them https://naukatehnika.com/saab-gotov...-jas-39e-gripen-dlya-brazilii-i-shveczii.html Maybe Mexico will get F-35s in response?

Well, why do you think? And how do you go from Brazil getting Gripens to Mexico wanting F-35s in response??

Got to have a purpose for brand new aircrafts like I am hoping the U.S. having 1000s of F-35s uses it for something big.

 

[GTX]

Read this - it's pretty obvious:

https://revistapesquisa.fapesp.br/en/the-new-brazilian-air-force-fighter-jet/

 

[Maro.Kyo]

https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press...ry-phase-for-brazilian-and-swedish-air-forces
great news for Gripen E/F. Still wondering what the Swedish AF will do sith their surplus legacy Gripens.

 

[perttime]

According to Sweden's SVT (their national public service television broadcaster)....
The Gripen came THIRD in the tactical and trategic evaluation of the Finnish fighter contest, after F-35 and Super Hornet.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/...nskt-i-topp-nar-finland-valde-nytt-stridsflyg
"""""""""""""""
Finland satte betyg på flygplanstypernas förmågor genom att ge dem fem taktiska och strategiska uppdrag. Det var mål i luften, på land, till sjöss, underrättelseinhämtning och vapnens förmåga till slagkraft med lång räckvidd.

Lockheed Martin F-35 fick högst poäng: 4,5 av 5 möjliga. Amerikanska Boeing Super Hornet fick näst högst: 3,8 av 5 poäng.

Saab Gripens poäng är oklar
"""""""""""""""
Google's translation:
Finland rated the capabilities of the aircraft types by giving them five tactical and strategic missions. There were targets in the air, on land, at sea, intelligence gathering and the weapons' ability to strike with long range. Lockheed Martin F-35 got the highest score: 4.5 out of 5 possible. American Boeing Super Hornet got the second highest: 3.8 out of 5 points. The Saab Gripen's points are unclear

 

[trose213]

According to Sweden's SVT (their national public service television broadcaster)....
The Gripen came THIRD in the tactical and trategic evaluation of the Finnish fighter contest, after F-35 and Super Hornet.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/...nskt-i-topp-nar-finland-valde-nytt-stridsflyg
"""""""""""""""
Finland satte betyg på flygplanstypernas förmågor genom att ge dem fem taktiska och strategiska uppdrag. Det var mål i luften, på land, till sjöss, underrättelseinhämtning och vapnens förmåga till slagkraft med lång räckvidd.

Lockheed Martin F-35 fick högst poäng: 4,5 av 5 möjliga. Amerikanska Boeing Super Hornet fick näst högst: 3,8 av 5 poäng.

Saab Gripens poäng är oklar
"""""""""""""""
Google's translation:
Finland rated the capabilities of the aircraft types by giving them five tactical and strategic missions. There were targets in the air, on land, at sea, intelligence gathering and the weapons' ability to strike with long range. Lockheed Martin F-35 got the highest score: 4.5 out of 5 possible. American Boeing Super Hornet got the second highest: 3.8 out of 5 points. The Saab Gripen's points are unclear

Wonder if that's because Boeing offered a more creative package than most?

 

[helmutkohl]

According to Sweden's SVT (their national public service television broadcaster)....
The Gripen came THIRD in the tactical and trategic evaluation of the Finnish fighter contest, after F-35 and Super Hornet.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/...nskt-i-topp-nar-finland-valde-nytt-stridsflyg
"""""""""""""""
Finland satte betyg på flygplanstypernas förmågor genom att ge dem fem taktiska och strategiska uppdrag. Det var mål i luften, på land, till sjöss, underrättelseinhämtning och vapnens förmåga till slagkraft med lång räckvidd.

Lockheed Martin F-35 fick högst poäng: 4,5 av 5 möjliga. Amerikanska Boeing Super Hornet fick näst högst: 3,8 av 5 poäng.

Saab Gripens poäng är oklar
"""""""""""""""
Google's translation:
Finland rated the capabilities of the aircraft types by giving them five tactical and strategic missions. There were targets in the air, on land, at sea, intelligence gathering and the weapons' ability to strike with long range. Lockheed Martin F-35 got the highest score: 4.5 out of 5 possible. American Boeing Super Hornet got the second highest: 3.8 out of 5 points. The Saab Gripen's points are unclear

thats very interesting. I didnt think any of the specific point/evaluation information would get leaked or published.
it also makes me more curious to what the Eurocanards got specifically.

 

[perttime]

According to Sweden's SVT (their national public service television broadcaster)....
The Gripen came THIRD in the tactical and trategic evaluation of the Finnish fighter contest, after F-35 and Super Hornet.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/...nskt-i-topp-nar-finland-valde-nytt-stridsflyg( ... )

Wonder if that's because Boeing offered a more creative package than most?

SAAB was also offering the Global Eye AEW&C as part of the package, and it participated in the evaluation.

thats very interesting. I didnt think any of the specific point/evaluation information would get leaked or published.
it also makes me more curious to what the Eurocanards got specifically.

The choice was also leaked before the official decision. That IS interesting.

Eurofighter and Rafale were already out before the performance evaluation. They failed to deliver an acceptable package for the economics and sustainment side of the deal. As I understand, the Air Force tried to guide them to fulfill the requirements there, but they still didn't get what they were asking for. THAT is curious.

 

[red admiral]

Eurofighter and Rafale were already out before the performance evaluation. They failed to deliver an acceptable package for the economics and sustainment side of the deal. As I understand, the Air Force tried to guide them to fulfill the requirements there, but they still didn't get what they were asking for. THAT is curious.

Meeting a cost point seems pretty trivial so you assume its got to be on the sustainment side? Maybe Finland wanted France/Eurofighter countries to guarantee they still be operating the types themselves in the 2070s? Which feels an unrealistic ask.

 

[perttime]

Eurofighter and Rafale were already out before the performance evaluation. They failed to deliver an acceptable package for the economics and sustainment side of the deal. As I understand, the Air Force tried to guide them to fulfill the requirements there, but they still didn't get what they were asking for. THAT is curious.

Meeting a cost point seems pretty trivial so you assume its got to be on the sustainment side? Maybe Finland wanted France/Eurofighter countries to guarantee they still be operating the types themselves in the 2070s? Which feels an unrealistic ask.

It isn't clear to me what the issue was. The FEELING that I got was that it was something that could have been done, but the manufacturers did not provide documentation to cover it.

 

[chestpain]

Entirely unsurprisingly Brazil is readying an order for a second batch of Gripen Es: https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/brazilian-air-force-considers-buying-30-more-saab-gripen-jets-report

The only thing surprising is that it isn't another 36 fighters, it's only 30 additional planes - does anyone know their future squadron size?
I vaguely recall they bought 12 used Mirage 2000 from France during the 2000s and it became one squadron... with 66 planes that's most likely 5 squadrons plus 6 for training/spare (unless they go down to 10-sized squadrons and establish six of them instead but I find that unlikely.)

 

[trose213]

So does the Gripen become a lot more marketable with Sweden in NATO?

 

[GTX]

So does the Gripen become a lot more marketable with Sweden in NATO?

Not really.

 

[Foo Fighter]

NATO is definitely more marketable with them in it.

 

[trose213]

NATO is definitely more marketable with them in it.

You mean the Gripen?

 

[Foo Fighter]

No, The Swedes BRING the Gripen with aircrew to the game. NATO needed the Swedes, greater cooperation with Finland only brings greater depth to the shoe box.

 

[IRT]

https://www.saab.com/newsroom/press...ry-phase-for-brazilian-and-swedish-air-forces
great news for Gripen E/F. Still wondering what the Swedish AF will do sith their surplus legacy Gripens.

Late reply.

30-40 of the Gripen C will be uppgraded and kept in service along side the 60 new E model to keep the numbers of airframes at around 100. There are talks that that number may increase to 120 airframes or even more due to the recent events.

My guess is that the Gripen C that will be kept in service will get Saabs new GaN aesa radar and upgraded EW suite.

 

[Archibald]

Now that's a good question, if Sweden goes into NATO, could the membership led to more money being poured into more Gripens ? 120 combat aircraft seems awfully few... what happened to the Cold War Flygvapnet ?

 

[perttime]

Now that's a good question, if Sweden goes into NATO, could the membership led to more money being poured into more Gripens ? 120 combat aircraft seems awfully few... what happened to the Cold War Flygvapnet ?

Money happened, like in many countries:
- the cost of operating modern combat aircraft vs. the amount of tax money that you can get out of the population that you have. Sweden has a population of a little over 10 million. 10 combat aircraft, or a little more, for a million people.
- what you want to do with the money

 

[IRT]

Now that's a good question, if Sweden goes into NATO, could the membership led to more money being poured into more Gripens ? 120 combat aircraft seems awfully few... what happened to the Cold War Flygvapnet ?

Now that's a good question, if Sweden goes into NATO, could the membership led to more money being poured into more Gripens ? 120 combat aircraft seems awfully few... what happened to the Cold War Flygvapnet ?

120 aircraft is not decided yet, only to keep the current 100 number. Still 100 is a decent number for a country with 10 milion population.During the cold war Sweden spent 3-4+% of GDP on defence, today like 1,2%.

 

[Basil1891]

Recently stumbled upon Saab pdf presentation for Canada. Some interesting things there: not seen before big fuel tanks (seems redesigned for lower drag), along with claimed range and endurance numbers. Also some weapon configs:

 

[TomS]

Very interesting.

I recognize most everything (SPICE 1000 was a surprise) but not the second weapon from the bottom (above the SDB quad rack). It looks too squared off to be SPEAR?

 

[GTX]

Very interesting.

I recognize most everything (SPICE 1000 was a surprise) but not the second weapon from the bottom (above the SDB quad rack). It looks too squared off to be SPEAR?

GBU-53/B StormBreaker perhaps

 

[TomS]

Very interesting.

I recognize most everything (SPICE 1000 was a surprise) but not the second weapon from the bottom (above the SDB quad rack). It looks too squared off to be SPEAR?

GBU-53/B StormBreaker perhaps

Maybe? Still seems too square -- the back end of StormBreaker is round, isn't it? (Note the same weapon seems to be hung in the main illustration and it looks very flat-sided along its full length.

 

[Basil1891]

I recognize most everything (SPICE 1000 was a surprise) but not the second weapon from the bottom (above the SDB quad rack). It looks too squared off to be SPEAR?

Since SPICE 1000 already there, I believe it's SPICE 250. Imo, other similar options like StormBreaker or SPEAR are possible, but not integrated yet

 

[TomS]

I recognize most everything (SPICE 1000 was a surprise) but not the second weapon from the bottom (above the SDB quad rack). It looks too squared off to be SPEAR?

Since SPICE 1000 already there, I believe it's SPICE 250. Imo, other similar options like StormBreaker or SPEAR are possible, but not integrated yet

Yep, that's it. Thanks. I looked for an SDB-alike on the Rafael website but I must have missed it.

 

[Basil1891]

Interesting comparison of some aerodynamically unstable designs (Gripen included) by pitch-time-to-double parameter.
The shorter time is, the more aerodynamically unstable plane you have.

Spoiler: sources

Sources: NATO AGARD-AR-279; https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1474667015332274

 

[TomcatViP]

Interesting doc (pdf). Thanks for sharing.

This parameter is a control value to gauge stability, particularly usefull in mathematical equations governing fly by wire. It does not represent a panacea for any fighter design.
First, the maximum value of angle of attack varies considerably from one fighter to the other. A plane with more angle of attack capability than an other one will need comparably less double-alpha time than an other to feel as much pitch sensitive.
X-29 max alpha is 70+ degree
Gripen max alpha is less than 35 degree.

Secondly, stability, and particularly yaw and roll stability at alpha, requires often the alpha increment to be lowered for many fighters in order for the fbw to adapt and use and lock appropriate govern movements, for example.
Hence a high alpha airplane could often be more pitch sensitive past a certain value than many others that would require a lot of control restrictions to be implemented.

Lastly, this parameter is often used to evaluate the plane reactions to inputs that are not from the pilot (gust alleviation or involuntary pitch departure for example). A well designed FBW could often be made more sluggish in a certain range since the control law are fully capable to maintain the plane at a certain attitude when another one could reach the same value only in a transient mode.

 

[TomcatViP]

E-Gripen fires Met:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1564502313875783681

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1564502313875783681

 

[isayyo2]

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/saab-ceo-frustrated-at-slow-pace-of-gripen-sales

“It is extremely frustrating to say the least, and I can say that it is not about the [Gripen] product that we have developed and manufactured. If it had been a completely level playing field in terms of not talking about security, politics, and other areas, then I think we would have been much better off [in terms of securing sales],” Johansson said, adding, “In many countries, the leverage of the US is tremendous. They are not so easy to work against [in the market], and it is politics.”

Johansson's comments came on the back of a fallow few years in terms of securing additional sales for either its earlier Gripen C/D or its latest Gripen E/F range, with international sales campaigns having scored no successes since Brazil joined the Gripen E/F programme in 2014.

 

[Archibald]

Gripen while still excellent is getting old, and most importantly, whatever the F-35 cost and flaws, that 3000-airframe thing is turning into a huge steamroller. I would not be surprised Gripen becomes an early casualty. Against F-35 it has two defects a) a little small and b) not stealth. Rafale is still resisting the steamroller but for how long ?
That has been the F-35 plan since 2001 and after 20 years it is happening...