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Author Topic: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere  (Read 26759 times)

Offline Michel Van

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Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« on: January 17, 2012, 05:38:19 am »

Cloudbase is the fictional skyborne headquarters of international security organisation Spectrum,
from Gerry Anderson's science fiction television series Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons

Years later the British Interplanetary Society proposed so a Cloudbase, but for Atmosphere of Venus !
In the recent years Geoffrey A. Landis of NASA's Glenn Research Center, proposed it again as Aerostat habitats.
flying in 50 km over the helluva hot surface.
In this high the Venus atmosphere got same pressure as on Earth and is composed mainly of carbon dioxide,
a Aerostat filled with Air (Oxygen-Nitrogen mixture) has here 60% of the lifting power that helium has on Earth.

but the Soviets had already the same ideas in 1971

source Technica Molodezhi TM - 9 1971
also this
Manned Aerostate Base in the Venus planet and mezoplane - Almanach I Want To Learn All - Хочу все знать - Leningrad 1981
http://scienseillustrations.mypage.ru/2286548.html












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Offline Pem Tech

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 06:26:01 am »
Fascinating!
You wouldn't happen to have an English translation for the Russian text would you?

Layne Pemberton
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 06:33:04 am »
Fascinating!
You wouldn't happen to have an English translation for the Russian text would you?


Nope
but i start to learn to understand and read Russian, it will take some time...
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Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2012, 09:36:14 am »
a Aerostat filled with Air (Oxygen-Nitrogen mixture) has here 60% of the lifting power that helium has on Earth.

Floating colonies on Venus would in some ways be easier and chemically better off than colonies on Mars. You would be *above* the clouds, so the sunlight would be *really* bright... good for plant growth and solar power. Additionally, the greenhouse effect within the balloon would make it not only a "lifting gas" balloon, but a hot air balloon. At the altitude where the pressure is the same as on Earth, the temperature is quite mild... human-livable (I've forgotten exactly what).
 
Long tethered "harvesters" could be lowered to the clouds, where sulfuric acid could be collected. From that you can obtain water, hydrogen and sulfur. Carbon and nitrogen can be collected from the air. Minerals would be a problem, but could be dropped from space or, with a whole lot of effort, scraped from the surface.
 
With hydrogen, carbon and sulfur, a number of structural plastics could be made.
 
An obvious economy might be using locally made carbon composites to build simple rockets fueled with oxygen and hydrogen and/or an oxygen and sulfur/hydrocarbon hybrid to throw water to a mining base on Mercury, which uses the water locally as well as turnign it into rocket fuel to send metals and minerals back to Venus.
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Offline RanulfC

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2012, 09:49:43 am »
"Bonus" actually from having the habitat's just above the cloud layer:
 
Sunlight reflection from the cloud deck is high enough that having solar cells facing "down" would produce almost as much power as those faceing the sun itself :)
 
(Scott, IIRC the temp at @50km is around 100F :)
 
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Offline chuck4

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 10:16:58 am »
The problem with a cloud base is you literally have a bring in all the material for everything needed to fabricate it and maintain it.  What's the point of any colony which can't live off the land and has to be fully supported from the mother country/planet?
 
 

Offline Orionblamblam

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2012, 11:04:36 am »
The problem with a cloud base is you literally have a bring in all the material for everything needed to fabricate it and maintain it.

The *first* one, yes. The primary job of colony #1 would be the manufacture of other colonies. Carbon and hydrogen would form the bulk of the structural materials, of course... metals would be scarce as would be a lot of the trace elements needed for life. These would, at least initially, have to be brought from Earth, the Moon, asteroids, whatever. But the nature of the colony would be a closed ecology, so these materials would be constantly recycled. Hydrogen fluoride is present in tiny quantities int he atmosphere, but processing this out would provide the feedstock for teflon, which would be rather vital in that environment.
 
Each new colony would spread the metals and minerals thinner. This would be an incentive to work out how to obtain them locally. Until such time as terraforming makes manned ventures to the surface feasible, unmanned systems would be the only option. It seems to me that at least initially, the easiest approach would be to simply lower some sort of scraper and bucket to the surface at the end of a long tether, and just scoop up whatever happens to be there. An 80 km long tether than can survive the temperatures and sulfuric acis would be an interesting engineering excercise, of course. The scooper could be somethign as straightforward as a reinforced carbon-carbon box with a bulldozer lip. You might only get a few hundred pounds of crap with each scoop, and each scoop might be a process taking a week or more; but in a closed ecology, a few hundred pounds of trace elements per week might be adequate.
 
A staged approach using a blimp that can go much lower would shorten the tether length and lower the mass.
 
You may want to position the colonies above the sulfuric acid cloud layer... above 70 km or so. At that altitude, the temperature is a chilly -40 degrees (F *and* C... a brisk North Dakota winter) and the atmospheric pressure is about 0.04 atmospheres. Consequently, you'd need more lifting gas than just air. Fortunately, hydrogen is abundant and basically non-reactive with the carbon dioxide atmosphere. On the other hand, at 55 km altitude, the temperature is 27 degrees C and the pressure is about half an atmosphere. But you'd be embeeded within the acid clouds. Bleah.
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Offline Michel Van

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2012, 11:52:00 am »
after the several sources in Internet, is Venus atmosphere in 50 km high around 0°C to 75°C or 32 to 167°F
most information tell that the acid clouds begins in over this high and there a only sulfuric acid "haze"

but that is Wikipedia, I must look in some Astronomy books

carbon dioxide in Venus Atmosphere can be used as oxidizer, if you use Diborane (H6B2) or Silane (SIH4) as fuel, the mixtures are hypergolic on contact !

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Offline Archibald

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2012, 12:16:12 am »
Geoffrey A. Landis

One of the rare fans of Venus out there - in fact he is somewhat Venus' Zubrin. He had cool proposals for Venus aircrafts, rovers, and even sample return. He wrote sci-fi books.
Personally I'd like to see a manned mission to the Sun-Venus L2 libration point, perhaps it could be a first step in the direction of the cloud city mentioned here.
Btw, I really like the look of the Soviet - Venusian "C-17" thing. Reminds me of Hayao Miyazaki flying things.
http://f.mypage.ru/88ab445b5cae9f3ae824d2c19df8800a_cda53ef710f71df0fb370f83e587bf99.jpg
Conservatoire de l'Air et de l'Espace d'Aquitaine
http://www.caea.info/en/plan.php

Profanity: weaker mind trying to speak forcefully

Political correctness: just bury your head in the sand for the sake of appeasement and "peace for our time"
- https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Dassault#Affaires_

Offline Foxglove

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2012, 02:17:25 am »
Everything's fine, but nobody here has mentioned the practically absent Venus magnetosphere; no magnetosphere, no protection from UV and cosmic radiation. Ergo, the crew of the cloud base would have to work in shifts, returning to Earth after each shift to avoid overexposure to radiation.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 02:34:17 am by Foxglove »

Offline pavel

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2012, 04:56:19 am »
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 11:19:01 pm by pavel »

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2012, 05:25:04 am »
Everything's fine, but nobody here has mentioned the practically absent Venus magnetosphere; no magnetosphere, no protection from UV and cosmic radiation. Ergo, the crew of the cloud base would have to work in shifts, returning to Earth after each shift to avoid overexposure to radiation.

Most of cosmic radiation is filter by the Atmosphere and the acid clouds
for the UV-Light is not so big problem, if the Cloudbase stay under the acid clouds cover at 50 km hight
but then has the cloudbase some  corrosion phenomena

Geoffrey A. Landis, One of the rare fans of Venus out there - in fact he is somewhat Venus' Zubrin. He had cool proposals for Venus aircrafts, rovers, and even sample return. He wrote sci-fi books.

try his story "The Sultans of the Clouds", free on this podcast Part 1-3 http://www.starshipsofa.com/blog/2011/08/30/starshipsofa-no-201-geoffrey-a-landis-pt1/

apropos Sci-fi  Aerostat habitats
next to venus were also story about  Aerostat habitats in Saturn atmosphere
were ever serious proposal made for a Saturn Cloudbase  ?

thx for note, pol
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Offline pavel

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2012, 05:41:11 am »
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 11:18:45 pm by pavel »

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2012, 06:16:23 am »
now i begin to understand, pol   
no no no, you not offended me  ;)

back to topic
found infomation about Venus atmosphere in 50 km high
in 1986 the Soviet VeGa 1&2 drop 2 landers and 2 french ballon probe on venus

the French probe reach a high of 54-55 km
air pressure 0.5 Atm, temperature +40°C~+48°C, windspeed 240 km/h - 104°F~118°F, windspeed 149 mph
the balloons rapid drop and rise 300 meter - 984 ft, in one case even 1.5 km down, almost one miles

Source:
Sowjet-Raumfahrt
Rudolf Hofstätter
ISBN 3-7643-1998-4
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Offline pavel

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Re: Manned "Cloudbase" in Venus Atmosphere
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2012, 07:10:52 am »
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 11:18:30 pm by pavel »