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Author Topic: Heckler & Koch G11  (Read 7263 times)

Offline Triton

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Heckler & Koch G11
« on: July 28, 2009, 08:27:45 pm »
The Heckler & Koch G11 is a non-production prototype assault rifle developed during the 1970s and 1980s by Gesellschaft für Hülsenlose Gewehrsysteme (GSHG) (German for "Corporation for Caseless Rifle Systems"), a conglomeration of companies headed by firearm manufacturer Heckler & Koch (mechanical engineering and weapon design), Dynamit Nobel (propellant composition and projectile design), and Hensoldt Wetzlar (target identification and optic systems). The rifle is noted for its use of caseless ammunition.

It was primarily a project of West Germany, though it was also of significance to the other NATO countries as well. In particular, versions of the G11 were included in the U.S. Advanced Combat Rifle program.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Combat_Rifle
http://www.hkpro.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=23:the-g11-caseless-military-rifle&catid=11:rare-prototypes&Itemid=5
http://www.nazarian.no/wep.asp?id=186&group_id=5&country_id=81&lang=0
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as42-e.htm
http://www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g11/g11.htm



« Last Edit: July 30, 2009, 03:01:48 pm by Triton »

Offline Triton

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2009, 08:49:42 pm »
Additional Heckler & Koch G11 images.

Offline vajt

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 08:40:55 am »
Truly the next generation of weapon. Now lets see if AIA can take the concept and actually produce the next generation of light assault rifle for the US Army. Also use the 6.8mm calibre.  :)

-----JT-----

Offline TomS

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2009, 04:32:45 pm »
If you're talking about the US Lightweight Small Arms Technology (LSAT) program, that's AAI, not AIA.  They seem to be looking at 6.5mm rather than 6.8mm as a possible intermediate caliber offering, but nothing is cast in stone, obviously.  The primary developmental rounds are both 5.56mm, but that's mainly so that they can concentrate on developing just the cartridge/propellant aspect and not the bullet as well.

Personally, I suspect that if LSAT does bear fruit, it will be with the polymer case-telescoped offering instead of the caseless one.  Caseless is clearly superior (lighter, more compact rounds, etc.) but the case telescoped route seems to be much lower risk.

The latest LSAT brief from the NDIA Small Arms conference is promising, but then aren't they all?  Here's a link...

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/wednesdaysessioniv8536.pdf





Offline sferrin

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 06:59:55 pm »
Is it just me or does this box with a knife blade on it just look. . .odd?  :-\
"DARPA Hard"  It ain't what it use to be.

Offline Jemiba

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2009, 03:20:11 am »
"Is it just me or does this box with a knife blade on it just look. . .odd? "

Always keep in mind, that it is a german development. So you always have to be
aware of subtle militaristic ideas. If this design becomes the rule, pre-military
education of kids would become much easier. You don't need dummy weapons
any longer, just suitable cardboxes for a realistic weapons training. Children
playing with weapons aren't political correct, of course, but who would mind
them playing with, say, cartons of cigarettes. And then one day, they all will get
G11s and conquer europe and beyond !    ;D

CAUTION! My posts may contain some sort of irony. So, before reading ask
your parents, teachers and other people responsible for your education for
permission !
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Offline Firefly 2

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2009, 08:35:24 am »
LOL, nice one Jemiba  ;D

Offline vajt

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2009, 09:55:26 am »
If you're talking about the US Lightweight Small Arms Technology (LSAT) program, that's AAI, not AIA.  They seem to be looking at 6.5mm rather than 6.8mm as a possible intermediate caliber offering, but nothing is cast in stone, obviously.  The primary developmental rounds are both 5.56mm, but that's mainly so that they can concentrate on developing just the cartridge/propellant aspect and not the bullet as well.

Personally, I suspect that if LSAT does bear fruit, it will be with the polymer case-telescoped offering instead of the caseless one.  Caseless is clearly superior (lighter, more compact rounds, etc.) but the case telescoped route seems to be much lower risk.

The latest LSAT brief from the NDIA Small Arms conference is promising, but then aren't they all?  Here's a link...

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/wednesdaysessioniv8536.pdf






Woops, you're right, AAI...thanks for the correction. I went into the pdf presentation that you linked and the project looks promising. Although I know it is only a prototype, I am not very impressed with the design of the weapon. Since they are starting from scratch, I was hoping to see something more radical, even the G11 had a more interesting design and the feed mechanism was unique with the three magazines being held above the barrel. I would also hope they may incorporate some of the lessons from the Kriss Super V weapon and drastically reduce the weapon's recoil.

I guess we will have to see what the final outcome of this project is.

-----JT-----

Offline Lauge

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 11:25:46 pm »
If all you want is to get rid of those pesky ejection problems, I would submit that something like the Benelli CB-M2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelli_CB_M2) using the 9mm AUPO round (http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo07apr.htm) would give you the most bang for the buck (pun intended). In this ammunition, the case is integral to the projectile and is fired along with it. Simpler and easier to make than a "true" caseless.

I had the interesting chance to actually handle one of the few pre-production G11's a couple of months ago. It's light weight, well-balanced and far from as awkward as its 2-by-4 looks would suggest.

As I understand it, the G11 and its ammunition was 90% production ready when the two Germanies were merged. And suddenly, what with having to reequip the entire former-East-German armed forces, the re-united Germany's military simply didn't have the funds needed to bring the project to a finish, let alone by a few hundred thousands of the things.

Personally, I've always been wary of caseless ammunition. Yes, it's lighter; yes, you don't need to eject anything (unless a round misfires); but it brings with them all sorts of problems (sealing the chamber, heat build-up, cook-off risk, environmental resistance, etc.). I guess I'm just not convinced that the concept is worth the effort. Until such time that the energy supply problems inherent in rail-/coilguns and directed energy weapons have been solved for small-arms-size weapons, I believe that the most cost-effective small-arms improvements can be achieved using something like the LSAT's polymer case-telescoped ammunition or, for something a bit more radical, a small-arms version of Metal Storm.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark
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Offline pathology_doc

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 12:13:38 am »
They seem to be looking at 6.5mm rather than 6.8mm as a possible intermediate caliber offering, but nothing is cast in stone, obviously. 

Perhaps to help them forget that the 6.8mm round that's currently being played with is only 0.007" away from being the .280 SAA MkIz they rejected so long ago?  :D The EM2's designers must be rolling in their graves. Or saying "I told you so". Or both...  :P

Of course there was once an era where every army in the world was armed with caseless firearms. But I don't see us going back there any time soon, LOL. I remember hearing that the G11 had made (or was about to make) its way into service with the (unified) German Special Forces, but I guess I heard wrong.

IIRC the other unique feature of this weapon was an extremely rapid metered three-shot burst that was supposed to be all-out-the-barrel by the time the mechanism had recoiled enough to slap the firer's shoulder, thus giving a fairly tight dispersion of the burst. Does anyone know whether the G11 delivered as advertised?

Offline Lauge

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 03:38:17 am »
I remember hearing that the G11 had made (or was about to make) its way into service with the (unified) German Special Forces, but I guess I heard wrong.

Not necessarily. I've been told the same thing by "usually well-informed sources", namely that a small number actually got as far as troop testing. This would have been before the unification, however. I suspect that a few might have "lingered" in the Special Forces community for some time, though, since getting an SF trooper to let go of his new fancy gun is marginally more difficult than getting the average limpet to let go of its rock  ;D

IIRC the other unique feature of this weapon was an extremely rapid metered three-shot burst that was supposed to be all-out-the-barrel by the time the mechanism had recoiled enough to slap the firer's shoulder, thus giving a fairly tight dispersion of the burst. Does anyone know whether the G11 delivered as advertised?

The burst feature delivered as advertised, to the best of my knowledge. As mentioned in my previous post, the primary reason (I stress: as I understand it) that the G11 never made it to full-blown production was economics, not technology.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark
« Last Edit: August 05, 2009, 03:41:20 am by Lauge »
"Cry 'Havoc' and let slip the crocoducks of war"

"Swinging across on rigging, cutlass in teeth, is regrettably not a practical means of boarding a spacecraft".
The Tough Guide to the Known Galaxy

Offline Michel Van

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2019, 08:10:14 am »
H&K G11 at Forgotten Weapons

and yes he takes it apart and show some mechanic of that Beautiful weapon

I love Strange Technology

Offline Grey Havoc

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Re: Heckler & Koch G11
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2019, 08:13:55 am »
Thanks for that. I realised that the video that I posted had already been posted, so I deleted it.
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